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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
Karen, can I ask you how old you are? I know that's a silly question (I hope it doesn't offend you) -- I'm just curious. Actually, I wonder about a lot of the posters' ages on this site. I thought about starting a new thread re: age, but then I was afraid Dr. Bob would redirect me to Social, and I only want to know Psychological Babblers' ages. Am I in trouble now? Sorry, Dr. Bob! Please don't block me! Can you get blocked for this sort of thing? I hope not.
I'm 32, btw.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:35
In reply to silly question » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
I'm 34
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:36
In reply to silly question » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
Crushed,
I'm 24 or 25. Crap! Right now I can't remember. I wsa born in July of 79 and don't feel like doing the math at this point as I have a Math class coming up later today :) I'm really not stupid either, again it's that darn faulty memory. I have a knack of being unable to recall things about my past. Which is good to a certain exstint, but I need to get past that....So, will you please tell me how old I am? :)
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 11:35:45
In reply to Re: silly question » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:36
i think that would make you 24.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:41:44
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by antigua on January 15, 2004, at 9:02:33
Oh! I'm SOOOO glad I have him when he's young enough to fall for those tricks! :) I just wouldn't be satisfied with the old, "Why do you want to know" bs that everyone else pulls. And I almost hope that he doesn't seek supervision on this one, as he may not be so forthcoming on my next round of assaults! And I do trust him quite a bit more knowing that he wasn't afraid to answer my questions or push me in a different direction. It's nice to be able to talk to someone I respect about sex and not feel as if it is something negative or bad. I think that pushing me in a different direction would give me the impression that the question was bad, also giving the impression that the subject was one not to be discussed. We both know that I don't have a crush on him anymore. I can be honest and say I find him attractive, but that's it. And our relationship is headed in a much more positive direction. I'm not feeling so inclined to keep him at arm's length during the session anymore. So, even out of "stupid" questions can come amazing breakthroughs!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:55:05
In reply to In defense of the cute therapist :) » Karen_kay, posted by Elle2021 on January 15, 2004, at 10:10:54
Now you're giving me a complex. I may be in some need of positive reinforcement from the cute shrink :) Just quit talking about my small breasts. Must I send a photo to prove they are quite ample? Sheesh! They are actually large and quite full. And I'm sure they are perkier than yours, thank you very much :)
I know that when I actually said my bra size, it made me realize that they weren't as small as I was complaining about. And when I said it, I didn't feel a bit uncomfortable, as I normally would telling a man that I have a crush on, ect. But, I know that I'm overly cautious about crossing boundaries. I wouldn't even suggest he would cross them. I'll keep my eyes and ears open. I don't think I'd stop seeing him even if he did though. Does that make me bad? I notice that he gets defensive sometimes when I try to "tell my side of how things happened" during therapy. Darn it, you guys are making me think too much about things...He's a good therapist, honestly. I couldn't imagine going in every week and looking at some drab old man or woman. Or someone who doesn't answer my questions. Or someone who's struggling to stay awake.....
That's why he said I was one of his favorite clients. I said that I noticed that he puts his head on his hands often and he said that he does it to stay awake because he doesn't get much sleep with is children at home (and don't give me crap about him overdisclosing) and I said, I guess I need to try to think up more interesting stories to try to keep you awake and he said, "No, actually that's why you are one of my favorite clients, because I don't have a problem staying awake in here." That doesn't sound so good once I type it out.....
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:01:18
In reply to Ummm uh oh? » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:55:05
It sounds just fine to me. My therapist does have trouble staying awake sometimes, and always apologizes and blames himself. But it does kind of make me feel bad. I'm glad you heard that yours doesn't feel sleepy with you.
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 15, 2004, at 12:04:07
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » antigua, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:41:44
This is completely fascinating! As an immediate response, several of the things your therapist said really do sound like boundary violations. However, as I've read more and seen what's happening to you, I think I would characterize what he's said as boundary "crossings", which, when made by either client or therapist, can be immensely helpful. He's trying to reach across and say, " you can live a full, sexually rewarding life, too. " And you felt completely safe when this was occurring, I think- and also felt better afterwards- on a sustained basis.
To give an example from my own therapy, my analyst said to me once, "you're sexy as hell". Now, that sounds just awful when I write it, but in context, I felt completely safe and validated- and it was part of some very positive changes which were occurring in me. So, who's to judge, or say, other than the persons involved?
Pfinstegg
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:17:09
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by Pfinstegg on January 15, 2004, at 12:04:07
To give an example from my own therapy, my analyst said to me once, "you're sexy as hell". Now, that sounds just awful when I write it, but in context, I felt completely safe and validated- and it was part of some very positive changes which were occurring in me. So, who's to judge, or say, other than the persons involved?
*Right on! I'm just shaking my head... I...uh...um.... it uh, doesn't sound so good but I completely understand what you are saying. He's not fullfilling any type of fantasy I have about him at all. I actually don't have any type of fantasy about him anymore. I honestly wish you (as in EVERYONE!! They are quite interesting!)could be in the room with me and hear what he says and what I say, to get the actual conversation. It's hard to translate. But, I assure you I didn't percieve it to be a boundary crossing of any sort. Unless it's just that I'm naive? But, I guess the ultimate decision is up to me anyway. And unless a serious infraction were to occur I wouldn't stop seeing him. He's helped me too much.
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 12:20:45
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by Pfinstegg on January 15, 2004, at 12:04:07
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:01:18
But, it has me wondering on how much he should disclose. I know his sleeping pattern. I know exactly how involved he is with his children compared to how much his wife is. I know that his first instinct when confronted with a situation is to lie, and he has given examples. I know about some fights he has had with his wife. I know that his brother is emotionally detached (I know this because I asked if he had a brother [like I was hitting on him in a way]motionally detached :) I know that he does the laundry, ect , ect, ect...And these things have related to therapy...I realize there isn't a question in this post, but how much should I know??? (There's the question...) Most of these things I didn't ask, BTW... He just gave examples.
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 12:47:54
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
What I'd be interested in knowing is - has he been through therapy or is he currently in therapy?
I am not absolutely sure how I feel about some of the info he's shared with you. I do think it's not a cut and dry rule, in that some boundaries, I think, probably depend on the client. My T is loaning me her Harry Potter books on CD, so I can listen to them (I've read them all, but listening helps me get to sleep more easily at night!). So, obviously she trusts me. My pdoc has given me his home phone number, and I know where he lives, b/c he told me. I've heard about his kids, know what his youngest got for Christmas, have heard him on the phone with some of his children, I know about his parents, his brothers, etc. I know a good bit about him. And I know some about my T, though not as much. But my pdoc emphasizes to me that the reason he is comfortable sharing such info with me is because he's *not* doing therapy. He said he would never be so forth coming if he was doing therapy.
My T shares anecdotes at times to emphasize a point or something, but never anything quite as personal as your T, though I tend to think it's due to his age and lack of experience. I don't know, as I said, that that is a bad thing, but I do truly feel that he could benefit from supervision. If he has his Ph.D. in psychology and he's only 29, then if he's fully licensed he hasn't been for very long. How long have you been seeing him, Karen?
P
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:59:39
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
I don't get bent out of joint about those little day to day disclosures, especially if they have relevance to what you're discussing.
Sometimes, before a holiday when I don't want to get upset, I might tell him childhood stories from Christmas and then he might reciprocate. He certainly doesn't do the blank slate thing. There was a period when he was just trying to do too many things and it had a negative impact on his therapeutic effectiveness. When I (naturally) assumed that it was my fault, he explained. And now that I know, he'll refer to it occasionally.
I think he was probably nervous about telling me he was getting married (I prefer not to think of him as being a man) and if they ever have a baby I think he'd be terrified to tell me. Just because I'm likely to have all sorts of abandonment issues crop up and cause him trouble. But those sort of things really can't effectively be kept secret.
I think the question to self disclosure is this. Is it in the best interests of the therapist or the client? If it's done to make the therapist feel better, it's bad. If it's done to further the therapeutic aims of the client, or to strenghten the therapeutic bond, then it's probably good. If it is just to explain the unavoidably detected, it doesn't matter if it's good or bad, it probably should be done.
There have probably been occasions where my therapist missed the mark a bit. But no one's perfect.
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
Hi Karen, Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for a male therapist to tell an attractive female client about arguments he has with his wife.I think it is kind of like using you as a therapist and also disrespectful of his wife. Now if he just made a general statement, like "all marriages involve arguing at times" that would be fine. But do you mean he gives you specific details about arguments in his marriage?
Confession: My shrink, who is usually pretty by-the-book, once made a slip in a similar way. I was talking about an argumentative communcation style of my boyfriend at the time, and he said something like, "I know what you mean, I've experienced that in some relationship too." Of course, I had to press the issue, and asked with whom. He said, "my wife," and then quickly said, "but I shouldn't talk about that" and changed the subject. I could tell he knew that he shouldn't have said that as soon as it came out. He's never said anything sexual or went into details about arguments with her.
It made me feel weird enough to do some research on the internet, and here is one link that I happened to save on my hard dirve, in case the discussion came up again. It didn't, but here is the link, scroll down to self-disclosure blurb: http://www.division42.org/MembersArea/Nws_Views/articles/Ethics/boundaries.html
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:24:46
In reply to a link, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
Ok, I am going go try to post a long link, but if it doesn't go thru, here is the section I think you should read:
Questionable Self-Disclosure
• Details of current problems or stressors, personal fantasies or dreams, and social,
sexual or financial circumstances.• Inappropriate self-disclosure leads to a gradual erosion of treatment boundaries and
most common factor that precedes therapist-client inappropriate behaviour (Smith &
Fitzpatrick, 1995).• When the therapist’s communication burdens the client with the therapist’s problems
Now, let's try that link. It's kind of interesting and acknowledged the different views re: self-disclosure in different orientations, but it does say the some things are questionable (see above). Now, zee link: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:Z-cT4jKAEqEJ:www.psych.ucalgary.ca/students/courses/notes/f03/PSYC431/TherapistSelf-Disclosure.pdf+therapy+%22inappropriate+self-disclosure%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
In reply to a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:24:46
The previous link was from a college psychology course I am guessing? Looked like it.
Now, here is a link from a legal standpoint, not that you are off to court or anything, just to show you what can get therps in trouble http://kspope.com/ethics/malpractice.php
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:49:57
In reply to Re: a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
Two more links, and then I better get back to work!
This is about doctors, not therps, but go to the "Verbal Behavior" paragraph, and it explains what I have been trying to say. http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:eyTpONRdrhkJ:www.bmp.state.mn.us/Newsletters/fall97.pdf+%22boundary+violations%22+%22inappropriate+self-disclosure%22+%22boundary+violations%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Another link. Scroll down to Avoid sexual misconduct, the "Client signs" and "Therapist signs" sections. http://cmhs.utoledo.edu/npiazza/Courses/Orientation/Dual.htm
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 14:09:18
In reply to Re: a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
Posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:59:39
I think your therapist did the right thing. But I don't know if that falls under guidelines (the fact that he mentioned that he masturbates to you).
Btw, what is the standard guideline for sexual contact between a therapist and a client? How long after termination is that acceptable?
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:29:44
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 1:22:21
> I told my Therapist that if they ended up in therapy at 40, I want them to talk about their DAD, not me! LOL
That's so funny! I said almost the same thing to my therapist when he made the comment he did. I told him I'll just let my husband screw our son up instead. Right, like I'm not going to take full responsibility for everything that happens to my kid. Well, I should say for all of the *bad* things that happen, but I suppose that's a topic for another day...
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 14:32:38
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh?, posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
> Btw, what is the standard guideline for sexual contact between a therapist and a client? How long after termination is that acceptable?
The APA says 2 years I think (I think it's in one of the articles Joslynn linked to), but some groups say never. Never is the safe standard - sexual contact even with a former client could end a therapist's career, if a lawsuit should arise or something of that nature. And I can't see how it could ever be truly mentally or emotionally healthy for the former client. I guess there are always exceptions to the rules, but IMO, too many chances...
P
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:33:46
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long), posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:29:44
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:42:35
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
> I just appreciate the fact that he doesn't always ask, "Why do you want to know the answer to that questin, ect." when we've been working together and it's fairly obvious.I hate that kind of response, too. But I know it's probably good for me most of the time. *sigh*
> I sometimes wonder if when I have children, if I'll cause themto be in therapy. I only hope if they are that they'll have a good therapist and they don't ask their therapist the type of questions I do. I'd have to punish them, regardless of age!I like your thinking. If you don't mind, I'm going to borrow it. If my son needs therapy, I will just hope he has a therapist as good as mine. And I hope he'll be brave enough to make the therapy work for him by asking the kinds of questions you do (don't sell yourself short). I've only been going for seven months, but I truly believe this is a turning point in my life and someday, maybe my son will be able to use therapy as a life changing/enhancing tool as well. But I digress...
Karen, we can only hope you procreate! You must pass down your fantastic sense of humor and of course your fabulous sense of style and good looks! : )
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 14:47:32
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh?, posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
He DID NOT say that he ever fantasized about me. He said that he has fantasized about clients, now that could mean past clients. I didn't feel like getting into great detail, as I felt I was prying (as well as other women he has been with and other people as well). He NEVER ONCE mentioned me. NEVER EVER EVER mentioned, made reference hinted at, looked lovingly into my eyes, ect ect, you get the hint....
I'm sorry... One could say that maybe he does or doesn't. One could say that he thinks about my mom on occassion to. Come to think of it, I mentiojned how beautiful my sister is and he asked if I had a picture. One could say that when I bring in a picture of my sister next week, he may have fantasies about me AND my sister. However, I doubt that highly! (And the reference to my sister is too much!! We were actually talking about how I believe she was abused, and I have a knack for bringing in pictures of my family...) I just had to bring that example up...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:01:34
In reply to a link, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
Ok, I know (or am fairly certain) that the reason for disclosing the one petty and one rather serious arguments were somewhat relative to therapy. One that he constantly gets into with her is the fact that when he does something forgettful or silly like leaving the lid off the peanut butter, and she busts him, he lies about it. Now, I wonder what that had to do with in the first place. And he told me another story, but he wasn't going to but he started to and stopped. And of course I wouldn't have it. But, it related to how stopping negative thoughts and calming yourself down can change a situation. I guess his wife went out shopping with her mother and he was supposed to meet her but he couldn't find his car keys and his child took his diaper off and went #2 on the carpet (ICK!) and so he couldn't meet his wife and she kept calling to find out why he wasn't there, but he changed his thoughts,ect and she got take out and they lived happily ever after. And I also know about a rather big fight they had where his wife was griping about him not helping with the children while he was studying for his big test (?? anyone know what test??) and he got mad and stormed out.. I can't remember how that related but I'm sure it did. He doesn't just tell me these things because I say, "How's your week been?" or anything, but hmmm....
Our relationship is really headed in the right direction. So, I don't see that it is interfering with therapy if he is overdisclosing on occassion... And it helps to fill up the dead air sometimes.
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