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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 20:33:08
I just lost my temper with my husband to the point I couldn't hold it back any more. Long story, not enough energy right now, but I wanted to share my milestone with y'all. I told him not only what made me angry, but that I realized I'd never expressed my anger before because I knew that by any measurable standard, I was less valuable than he, but I couldn't keep it back anymore. I was angry, he could have been more responsible and more cooperative, but he wasn't and that was within his control.
Guess what? My head didn't explode. No one threw *anything*. I didn't throw up. Neither of us cried. In fact, although I really and truly did let him have both barrels, we hugged and made up some times afterwards.
I can't believe this is happening to me!
Posted by coral on February 8, 2004, at 21:24:17
In reply to Marital Milestone, posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 20:33:08
Congrats, Racer,
That is a HUGE milestone!!!! My therapist and I were discussing anger recently, and he pointed out the big difference between hostility and aggression. In his concept, hostility is striking a blow (verbally) to hurt the other person, win the argument, prove you're right, etc., while aggression is being extremely firm to promote the health of the relationship. I'd never thought of it this way and find it a refreshing thought. He also said that healthy relationships thrive with the expression of uncontaminated anger aggressively. Took me awhile to get my head around that but it makes sense. (My anger is directed toward another family member but I found it applies w/my WH.) In fact, even more w/my WH because we both want the relationship strong and healthy. I used to bury my anger (prior to the depression), and he (WH) said, "I'd rather you be mad as hell at me and let me know than to hold it in and have it ooze out as anxiety." Now, with my family member who has no concept of building/strengthenibg a healthy relationship, the therapist's principle still holds true because I feel better and cleaner. Sorry for meandering.... really just wanted to congratulate you for the milestone!
Coral
Posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 23:32:40
In reply to Re: Marital Milestone, posted by coral on February 8, 2004, at 21:24:17
Thank you very much for your ideas. That wasn't actually meandering at all, and it is very helpful to think about another perspective about it. Being able to get my mind around the concept of aggression as a good thing may take me a while, but it seems like a good exercise to try to get in knocked through my skull. If I ever do, I'll have you to thank for it.
Meanwhile, part of the problem is that my Darling Husband and I don't quite communicate at all very well. My experience up to this point has been that, if I try to express any anger towards him, he'll have a defensive move to counter with. Along the lines of, "Gee, DH, would you be willing to give me a little bit of a hand around the house? I'm feeling overwhelmed with all the housework and my job, so it would really help." Answer, "When you pay half the bills, I'll do half the housework." Back when the sex thing -- or lack of sex thing -- started to become an issue, he told me, "Well, I think I don't want to have sex with you because you've gained too much weight and just aren't as attractive." Mind you, I know, and knew at the time, these were defensive moves, and he was just trying to avoid having to continue any sort of a dialog on either subject. He's not a cruel person, and he feels bad about having said such hurtful things, but he's like a timid terrier: shy-sharp, it's called, when they attack because they're nervous. (Although the weight comment, with my background, really does still resonate.)
Another problem we have is that I'll say something to him, before it gets to me being angry, and it just doesn't get through. For example, he got three boxes of clothes for Christmas, and left the clothes -- in the boxes -- on the floor next to the dresser. I asked him several times to put them away, and he said he'd just rotate them into his wardrobe. Well, yesterday I couldn't take it anymore, so I finally put them away and folded up the boxes. It never occurred to him that I was really troubled by not being able to get a handle on the housework, and that having those boxes on the floor all the time made it worse, and made my depression worse. Tonight, he left his shoes on the floor between "my" chair and "my" ottoman, so I threw them into the dining room, onto the floor. He said I could have just asked him to move them, but when I've tried, he just doesn't hear. You watch, those shoes won't be left in the middle of the living room again this week. It really does take a 2x4 with him, as far as I can tell.
Deep breath.
OK, see, that's part of the problem: I do get worked up over this stuff. I'm always afraid that I'll go off, or explode, or something. That's part of the problem.
What I realized today, though, which "allowed" me to vent my anger, was that I felt as though he was worth more than I. By every measure you can find, I have less value than he does. That's absolutely true. I'm the one who's got a Serious Mental Illness, the one taking medications to keep me on my feet (though they're not working real well, but that's another story), I'm the one who has a history of troubles of one sort or another, I'm the one who can't earn a decent living, I'm the one who really doesn't have any lucrative skills. The problem is, I am worth something. Or, let's put it this way, if I am truly of less worth than he is, someone should put me out of my misery. Existing with the way I've been feeling for so long now is almost unendurable. If I'm doing it for no reason, the only humane thing to do is stop my pain.
So, I guess you're wondering what caused this temper release? I was sitting here at the computer, reading something or writing something, and he came in saying that the espresso machine had stopped working. So, like a dutiful chick, I got up and went into the kitchen and checked it out. Appliances, after all, are my job. Background on this is that he drinks espresso, I don't; he will not clean the damn machine; and I've had to clear built up crud to keep it working in the past. So, this time I finally said, "This is an expensive appliance. We can't afford to replace it. If it breaks, I know you're going to replace it because you will not change to regular coffee. Therefore, could you please think about the fact that the build up of gunk you refuse to clean might be burning out the pump? This is an avoidable expense, but you have to do something to avoid it!" (No swearing, I don't think, and it may not sound like much -- especially since I didn't raise my voice -- but I've never said anything like that to him without pulling punches to avoid hurting his feelings.)
So, I'm taking credit for one display of anger and one tantrum today. (The shoe throwing.) Earlier in the week, I had the one other tantrum -- my first ever, I think -- where I cleared a stack of magazines onto the floor -- all over the floor. If I keep this up, maybe I'll get good at it. You think?
And, Coral, my heart is going out to you with your current troubles. My family has gone through that sort of trauma several times, and there is absolutely no worse thing in the world than having people you've always just assumed were Related to you,as well as being relatives, behave as expressed adversaries. Just awful. And the rift can continue on if you let it. Here's a {{cyberhug}} from your Cousin Racer. Hope it helps.
Posted by coral on February 9, 2004, at 7:07:39
In reply to Excellent meandering » coral, posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 23:32:40
Dear Racer,
"By every measure you can find, I have less value than he does. That's absolutely true." I patentedly disagree, (within all bounds of civility.) If you want to examine external valuations, I think of your kindness to horses (as a sister equestrian, I know the patience and goodness of heart managing TB's requires - my favorite breed.) That's just one point of many of your worth. Yet, I do understand the sense of pervasive worthlessness that accompanies depression. I went through it and knew I had no value to contribute. Even now, several years post Major Depression, when I'm not functioning as highly as I feel I should be, those old cellar demons start creeping around.Your comment about the 2x4 struck home. In an earlier post on another thread, I told about losing it w/WH. Now, a few days later, I can truly believe that my WH should've realized what the stress was doing to me, but it took a 2x4 to get his attention. For me, it's like an on/off switch. Everything's fine, fine, fine (or so I portray), then, BAM. He's caught off guard. Maybe (think???) I need an anger reostat?
My heart goes out to you for those very hurtful things he said (shy/sharp)... good description, but they STILL hurt.
As far as the expresso machine goes, if he's the only one who drinks it, wellllllllllll, perhaps he should be responsible for it? I think you handled it extremely well. Here's a blue ribbon for your anger expression!
"The problem is, I am worth something." YES, you are, and I don't see that as problem. This may be more of a healthy milestone than you realize.
Thanks for the warm thoughts re: my family situation. I've always said Norman Rockwell was a sadist.
Hugs,
Cousin Coral
Posted by judy1 on February 9, 2004, at 12:29:39
In reply to Marital Milestone, posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 20:33:08
That's a huge leap for someone who is terrified by the consequences of expressing anger to risk that with a loved one. You must be getting very healthy emotionally to do that. As far as 'fighting' with your spouse, that's a learned art- most people do get defensive when they are attacked verbally. My husband and I spent a lot of time in couples therapy learning the 'correct' way to argue, it helped us both tremendously.
take care, judy
Posted by Kath on February 9, 2004, at 14:35:43
In reply to Marital Milestone, posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 20:33:08
WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Over the past maybe 4 months, I've gotten mad & been REAL with my husband....and as you say - nothing DREADFUL happened!!!!!!!!!!!
I even raised my voice!!!!!!!!
I even said "NO I DID NOT MAKE YOU FEEL BADLY - you felt badly as a result of something I SAID"
and WOW - I've lived to tell the tale!!!!
I even said, "I'm sorry that as a result of something I said, you felt badly" then later, said, "I've apologized. If you need anything further from me, let me know."
WOW - is this really me???????????
Good for you - I know how great it feels!!!
Kath
I just lost my temper with my husband to the point I couldn't hold it back any more. Long story, not enough energy right now, but I wanted to share my milestone with y'all. I told him not only what made me angry, but that I realized I'd never expressed my anger before because I knew that by any measurable standard, I was less valuable than he, but I couldn't keep it back anymore. I was angry, he could have been more responsible and more cooperative, but he wasn't and that was within his control.
>
> Guess what? My head didn't explode. No one threw *anything*. I didn't throw up. Neither of us cried. In fact, although I really and truly did let him have both barrels, we hugged and made up some times afterwards.
>
> I can't believe this is happening to me!
Posted by shar on February 9, 2004, at 23:49:44
In reply to Marital Milestone, posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 20:33:08
Racer,
Hearty congratulations and may you let your anger outward even more often, instead of directing it inward!I read the posts above this one, and I totally agree with Coral's assessment of relative worth. Your Dearest is there NOT out of altruism, but because he gets something positive out of your relationship. Your relative worth, by the measurable standard of what truly matters (heart, soul, spirit, goodness)...well, you are exactly equal. You may be even worth more, because you're the one that's had to experience all the hard times, and survive, and are still working at it. :)
I'm very happy you've expressed anger and had tantrums. The magazine one is more like what I do...except so far, over the years, it's been clearing desktops and/or table tops (after making sure nothing is too breakable). It's oh so rewarding. And, better than hurting myself.
I still have a very hard time expressing anger, it scares me, it oozes out in isolation and deeper depression and more recently anxiety and panic attacks, even though I've had 'permission' from my own Dearest, plus every therapist I've ever seen, plus I KNOW it's bad for me to hold it in...and in...and in... It really kicks up my suicidal ideation.
Anyway, hooray for you! Let the games begin!
Your 'Dueling Banjos' Cousin from the Texas Backwoods,
Shar
Posted by judy1 on February 10, 2004, at 19:01:54
In reply to Re: Marital Milestone » Racer, posted by shar on February 9, 2004, at 23:49:44
expressing anger is easily the most diffcult emotion for me to express. And yes, panic attacks is a big one for me as is self-injury (more so than suicidal ideation). I think that's why learning to argue with my husband was so great- I get to leave the room if I feel angry (so much easier than confrontation), and come back when I'm calm. are you working on anything specific with your therp to help you? if so please share:-)
Posted by Racer on February 10, 2004, at 21:41:46
In reply to I have the same problem » shar, posted by judy1 on February 10, 2004, at 19:01:54
My therapist and I are kinda doing something interesting on the subject. We're not talking about me getting angry, so much as having the right to be heard. From there, we're then talking about what I want to say, which is helpful and keeps it from becoming a sort of six year old screaming "I hate everything!" We're also talking about why I don't speak up, the feelings of worthlessness, etc. That does help.
{{sigh}} Damn, I hate that she's leaving.
(By the way, I do have a second appointment this week, and will meet -- handshake and schedule -- the new T then. After that, one last session with both, and then no more Brilliant Therapist, but just the Not Yet Known Therapist. We did talk this week about how I felt about her leaving, what I wanted in a therapist, what works well for me, etc. So, I'm cautiously optimistic.)
(Oh, yeah, and I'm reading Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them, which is probably helping, too.)
Posted by shar on February 10, 2004, at 22:00:07
In reply to Dunno about shar, but... » judy1, posted by Racer on February 10, 2004, at 21:41:46
Me and anger, hmmm. Well, one thing I'm learning is to consider what it is I want. You know, we all hear about couples who argue about the plants and the dishes but not about sex/money/kids--when s/m/k is really the issue. So, if I'm angry or upset, I first work hard to figure out what my goal would be in bringing something up--what a successful outcome would look like to me. And, often, I end up much more focused on the outcome when I do say something, and what I say may be more neutral than my original anger would have made it.
Another thing I'm learning is that you can get angry at someone and not get abandoned (after years of brainwashing and evidence of the alternate view). That makes anger a bit more ok.
And, finally, I guess I'm learning that saying I'm angry about x, may not make one whit of a difference in the situation. The circumstances may not change at all; so the point is to notify my partner/friend/sister/etc. 'where I'm at' and even tho' I may want them to change their behavior, it may not happen. And to accept that, or if it's a biggie...take it from there.
Acceptance of my imperfections, my partner's/friends/etc. imperfections, and life's imperfections has been a big lesson that I'm still learning, and helps me have a different perspective on what I can and will live with (giving up the myths of good things happening to good people and throwing the baby out with the bathwater).
And I'm still working on it.
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2004, at 1:33:48
In reply to Dunno about shar, but... » judy1, posted by Racer on February 10, 2004, at 21:41:46
> (Oh, yeah, and I'm reading Lies And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them, which is probably helping, too.)
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by judy1 on February 11, 2004, at 19:43:09
In reply to Dunno about shar, but... » judy1, posted by Racer on February 10, 2004, at 21:41:46
I love how incredibly healthy you sound, your optimism about the new therp, your ability to express anger, just everything.
I'm very happy for you- judy
Posted by Racer on February 11, 2004, at 19:43:23
In reply to Re: Dunno about shar.....me, neither!, posted by shar on February 10, 2004, at 22:00:07
There's a difference, then, because if I stop to think about what it really is that I'm upset about, I get to making excuses, and finding reasons to blame myself for everything, and generally doing all the things that lead me deeper into depression. What made the "fight" the other day so groundbreaking for me was being able to say, "I'm angry about this", at the moment when I was angry, rather than waiting until I've analysed it. The other benefit to this approach, by the way, is that my husband really doesn't "hear" me when I say, "gee, I was angry about this, because..." He goes into -- for lack of a better description -- Defensive Listening. Only listening to hear what he can refute, or deny. By expressing it in the moment, he could hear it and hear that it really was upsetting me.
On the other hand, I agree that figuring out what you're really upset about is a Good Thing. I'm doing an exercise about that right now, in fact! See, I don't tell doctors about things that are going on with me, unless the relationship to a drug is overwhelmingly obvious and the effect is really unbearable. I'm always afraid of being labeled a hypochondriac, forever after indentified by that label rather than having my concerns given a fair hearing and thoughtful consideration. (If any of you remember what I was going through when I first came to this site, you might understand why...) Anyway, first I talked to my therapist about writing a letter to my pdoc about that fear, and about my concerns. So, first I wrote an outline, then I started refining the outline, and eventually I realized that I didn't need to say everything in the first ouline -- the basic problem is really quite simple: I'm so afraid of having you slap a label of Hypochondriac and never actually pay attention to me again that I don't tell you that I'm having weird periods since starting this drug, I have a pain right about here since starting this other drug, and I'm worried about something that I'd like reassurance about.
Sure, what I have to say is a long sentence. It just doesn't need a long, reasonable explanation of why reassurance about these things is a valid use of his time.
OK, now to tell you all about a practical problem I'm having right now. Maybe someone here can help me out. My Reality Check bounced this month, so can anyone tell me if any of that made sense?
Thanks!
Posted by judy1 on February 11, 2004, at 19:57:29
In reply to Re: Dunno about shar.....me, neither!, posted by shar on February 10, 2004, at 22:00:07
I think I'm really stuck with the fear of abandonment/expressing anger issue. I guess because even as an adult it has been an issue, and if anger is not the cause of the abandonment- then I *really* feel my unexpressed anger was (which I realize sounds irrational).
this is unrelated, but my shrink actually called me today asking when I was going to come in (I don't think he has ever done that). I haven't seen him in a while, mostly because I'm so good at denial I start believing I don't need to see anyone. at first I said I would call him next week and make an appt., but I landed up calling him 10 minutes later and made an appt. in a few days- I think I felt like he cared. he's always been so careful with me because of my ex-shrink's boundary crossing, that this really surprised me. full circle- dare I think he won't abandon me?
sorry for the rambling- judy
Posted by Racer on February 11, 2004, at 22:45:34
In reply to Re: Dunno about shar.....me, neither! » shar, posted by judy1 on February 11, 2004, at 19:57:29
You know, right now I'm so totally up in the air you wouldn't believe it. Yeah, it's kinda good, but it's so frightening!
As for the abandonment, that's always been a big part of it for me, too. With my husband, no matter how much he sometimes drives me crazy, I do trust him to stay, as long as he can. Most of my worries in that regard are about his health, which we're (finally) starting to address.
And abandonment is not a simple issue. In looking back over my past, I've got a pretty consistent pattern of being the one to leave any relationship. So, you ask, if I'm the one who leaves, why am I so afraid of being left? When that question gets answered, maybe I'm halfway home?
Maybe that's some place for you to start? Thinking about what abandonment looks like to you? Exploring situations in which you felt abandoned? Just a couple of thoughts.
As for your therapist, good for him and good for you. Don't even start thinking about "not needing" any more, think of it as being analogous to a manicure: someone who's there solely for your benefit and beautification. (May not help, but may...)
Warm thoughts, and gratitude to you.
Posted by judy1 on February 12, 2004, at 15:47:51
In reply to C'mon over, I'll lend you a 1/2 cup of hope... » judy1, posted by Racer on February 11, 2004, at 22:45:34
thank you for such a kind message.
and yes the manicure analogy did help:-), I never looked at it that way.
I think I'll probably talk about abandonment to my shrink, it's definitely the elephant in the room. I'll let you know how it goes.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on February 12, 2004, at 16:05:13
In reply to C'mon over, I'll lend you a 1/2 cup of hope... » judy1, posted by Racer on February 11, 2004, at 22:45:34
isn't it because if you leave first then the other person can't? so I guess you're right, why do you feel that may happen? you're handling your therp situation so well, is that because you didn't get that close? I know I always have my guard up with therps (no matter how great they are) because I had one that 'dismissed' me after a few years (with no follow-up visits). has anything like that happened to you in the past?
take care, judy
Posted by noa on February 12, 2004, at 22:43:26
In reply to I have the same problem » shar, posted by judy1 on February 10, 2004, at 19:01:54
Anger is scary for me, too.
Posted by noa on February 12, 2004, at 22:46:11
In reply to Marital Milestone, posted by Racer on February 8, 2004, at 20:33:08
>I just lost my temper with my husband...Guess what? My head didn't explode....we hugged and made up some times afterwards.
Sorry I'm joining in so late, Racer. This is great--you are really making amazing strides every day.How nice it is to have had this moment in your marriage.
Posted by Racer on February 13, 2004, at 9:20:22
In reply to Re: Marital Milestone » Racer, posted by noa on February 12, 2004, at 22:46:11
Thank you so much. This wasn't just the first time I expressed anger to my husband, you know. This was the first time I have ever expressed anger, appropriately, in the moment. Usually, I rationalize it all away, and never say anything, just let it all fester away inside me.
Thank you for your encouragement. It's a nice, warm feeling that there's someplace I can come to tell about these things, and have people who'll understand.
Posted by Racer on February 13, 2004, at 9:27:54
In reply to when you are the one who leaves... » Racer, posted by judy1 on February 12, 2004, at 16:05:13
I don't know if I leave first so that I can't be left. When I leave, it's always been for what I can see are really and truly good reasons. I think the "so I won't be left" part is in the people I've chosen to be involved with in the first place, if that makes as much sense as a crazy person can make.
I've had bad experiences with therapists, but never had one "fire" me. My best girlfriend did, though, in a way. She showed up for an appointment, after a couple of years of therapy with this woman, and the good doctor wasn't there. Never called back, never returned my friend's calls, nothing. Then, while my friend was working at a coffee shop for a short while, dr came in with a friend -- said "hi" and nothing more. That's just outrageous, but it's second hand.
Did I feel close to this therapist? Only as close as you can get in two months, but she's the first person I've trusted this much in decades. So, we did a lot of good work in a very short time, and now I get to practice to see if I can make the same leap of faith with the next one. I'm hoping.
Otherwise, lots of changes, which is putting me on a roller coaster ride like you wouldn't believe. Still, better to go through this wild ride knowing it's going to end, than to go on as I had been, one crisis away from suicidal desperation. So, maybe that attitude is what's making me seem so much better. It's not that I'm not spinning around with little control, it's just that I'm hoping that this time the therapy will take, and I'll actually be better.
Thanks for your support.
This is the end of the thread.
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