Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:31:21
In reply to Just my POV, posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 14:12:46
Hey there. Thanks for joining in :-)
> one of the biggest learning curves I've had inb my new job, is realising that actually, yes, therapists DO think their clients are often being manipulative.. they often actually dislike their clients.
Yeah. And if they think that... Then... How much are they helping as opposed to hurting? I mean... Nobodies perfect... And my understanding is that talking through some of those feelings and trying to understand things from a non-judgemental pov (where it is possible to like the client) is one of the important functions of peer support. Liking the client... Has been found to be correlated with helping the client...
I know that what you say is true. And that is why (IMO) therapists can be more likely to harm than to help... And that is why... I couldn't work with the majority of people I saw. Becauase... They didn't like me. They judged me. And they DIDN'T EVEN TRY to be charitable to me.
> Just because Linehan wrote something in a book, doesn't make it 100% correct.You mean just because Linehan wrote something in a book about how clinicians *should* view it doesn't mean that they think they should do it that way or that they are able to do it that way all the time?
I would say...
That is the difference between giving 'verbal assent' to her theory and censoring what you have to say in front of others...
And really understanding *why* it is important to do this. Because if you don't like the client they are surely going to notice. If you judge the clients intentions negatively then they are surely going to notice... And I think... That really isn't going to help them. Or you either. I mean... Burnout and all...
> As someone with BPD. As someone who does alot of voluntary work with people with BPD. As someone who works in a paid manner with people with BPD..
> We *do* manipulate. We are masters of manipulation.Linehan talks about how consumers come to internalise that way of seeing themselves because they are told it *that many* times.
What is hard with the 'manipulation' example is that everybody manipulated (no judgement) to a certain extent. Thats why she tries to reclaim the word by talking about how everybody does this and by talking about how people with BPD need to learn to get BETTER at manipulating others / their environments.
It is the judgement that is crucial...
But generally speaking... To call someone manipulative is to make a negative judgement about their intentions (malevolent intent).
So...
> Take an example of mine..
> I was doing very very badly.. But I couldn't get the help I needed. The waiting lists were long, and it felt to me like I wasn't "ill" enough, or that no one believed I was ill enough, for the help I so desperately wanted and needed.
> So, I got a knife and cut myself, on my hands and forearms. because I *knew* that they would be seen, and I thought that if I could show them I could cut myself, they would think I could do more, and thus give me treatment.
> Thats manipulative behaviour.That is one way of looking at it...
Another way of looking at it is that you did what you thought you needed to do to get better. I did similarly... I don't view it as manipulation (or if I do I don't judge myself negatively for it) because the fact is that is what i needed to do in order to get a little help in this f*cking crazy making mental health system.There may well have been more appropriate ways to go about that (ways that did not have to result in harming myself)... But the fact is that I needed a little help in order to learn more appropriate ways of getting a little help...
Ah... One of the paradoxes of BPD...
> What Linehan stresses is that therapists mustn't give in to the manipulation..
I bet she does not say it like that...
Maybe a verbal difference...
But I think it expresses a different 'world view' if you like of people with BPD...> That if they do, it reinforces that the behaviour will get the end results desired.
She also talks about how there need to be alternatives...
The client needs to know the alternatives...
The client needs to be cheerleaded and coaxed and cajoled and manipulated (if you like) along to have a go at those alternatives...And...
When you fail to reinforce a behaviour that has been reinforced before... Typically behaviour escalates before extinguishing. When you are talking SI or suicidal behaviours failing to reinforce... Can amount to playing chicken... Can be fairly risky...
What you need is alternative behaviours to reinforce...
So the focus is on that rather than on 'punishing' of behaviours that are unhelpful.
> Like I say, just my point of view to throw into the mix
:-)
poster:alexandra_k
thread:595104
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060102/msgs/595861.html