![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 21:18:13
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Tri » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 20:49:24
what drugs was he on when he was that depressed?
Posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 21:50:25
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Poet on March 4, 2008, at 21:08:28
> Hi Jay,
>
> I can't say I was a fan of Kurt's, but I do like Nirvana's version of "Seasons in the Sun." It's a sad song no matter who performs it, but Kurt's version really makes you feel his angst.
>
> Hopefully this youtube link works:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4BF67pvsc
>
> Poet
>thanks, they were such an amazing band really
Posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 22:05:57
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Poet on March 4, 2008, at 21:08:28
OMG! That made me cry!!! Of course, that song made me cry when I was little. Its just so sad.
His band members must have been so distraught over his death. I think some people really feel music on a deeper level than everyone else, and the best bands are the ones who all feel that way. It has to be an extreme emotional connection.
-T
Posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 22:12:56
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Tri » Poet, posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 22:05:57
Posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 22:24:56
In reply to P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters (nm), posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 22:12:56
I like counting crows :-)
Posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 23:21:42
In reply to Re: P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters, posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 22:24:56
> I like counting crows :-)
Do they have ex-Nirvana members?
-T
Posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 23:54:06
In reply to Re: P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters, posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 23:21:42
> > I like counting crows :-)
>
> Do they have ex-Nirvana members?
>
> -Tno, it was just a loose association
sometimes they are good to listen to when depressed
Posted by Phillipa on March 5, 2008, at 12:37:19
In reply to Re: P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters » TexasChic, posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 23:54:06
I was not familiar with Kurt but someone wrote me he had cancer from age l was blind but had a family and kids. Is this true or not? Love Phillipa
Posted by TexasChic on March 5, 2008, at 18:40:17
In reply to Re: P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters, posted by Phillipa on March 5, 2008, at 12:37:19
No, you're thinking of the guy that just died - Jeff Healey. He died of cancer and left behind two little girls and a wife - very sad. Kurt Cobain died in the mid-90's from a self inflicted gunshot wound. He left behind a little girl and Courtney Love. He was the epitome of a Gen X-er (my and Jay's generation), so it seems easy to identify with him and his depression.
-T
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 5, 2008, at 18:48:08
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Tri » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 20:49:24
Hi TC:
Ya, I remember that day so clearly too. I too didn't/don't understand why people would sit there and judge him as 'stupid'. I had a friend who also acted the same way yours did. But, I felt really good when Dave Grohl's "Foo Fighters" (as you mention above, and who I love also) wrote "My Hero". Dave said he wrote that song about and for Kurt. I LOVE that song!
About how people perceive it all...I hate to say it, but I find anybody who could call Kurt stupid as being cold, insensitive, and callous. That is sort of what I am really getting at in my whole post, I guess. I just can't understand people who don't have 'affect' in the way they express themselves, people so lacking the genuine empathy and even having some sense of grace. Even Kurt, who liked to play loud heavy music, showed that side of him in 'Seasons In The Son'. I SO remember playing that song on the tiny table (booth) jukebox at this restaurant my Dad would take all of us kids for breakfast on Sunday mornings back when we where little in the 70's. I loved that song obsessively!
As Bono sings...'Grace makes beauty...of ugly things.". So, so, so very true. Why can't people understand this??????
Well...thanks very kindly...you are always such a dear...:-)
Jay
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 5, 2008, at 18:51:27
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by obsidian on March 4, 2008, at 21:06:56
> ...that sounds like one very seriously depressed person...wow, like psychotic depressed
> I think I know what that feels like, like everything just hurts
>
> yeah I do know what that's likeYeah....it's like one MASSIVE soul-drenching OUCHIIIEEEEE!!! To say the least!
<sigh>Jay
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 5, 2008, at 19:09:07
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Poet on March 4, 2008, at 21:08:28
> Hi Jay,
>
> I can't say I was a fan of Kurt's, but I do like Nirvana's version of "Seasons in the Sun." It's a sad song no matter who performs it, but Kurt's version really makes you feel his angst.
>
> Hopefully this youtube link works:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4BF67pvsc
>
> Poet
>Thank you so kindly Poet! I have the audio of this, but never saw the video, and now it just hits me so many times as hard! I read so much about Kurt and this song, and to him it was like what brought back the 'special sweetness' in his memories, even if a lot of his memories where not very good ones. It brings tears to my eyes, really, to see him singing this, and knowing what I just would have so badly wanted to have said to him before he took his life. I would have said.."Kurt....it's okay...you don't have to be 'strong', you can cry, we can cry together! Forget about fame and all of that, let's just get our ghetto blaster, a tape of our songs that make us both cry and laugh, and we'll go sit in my bedroom and have pop (soda) and chips and nobody can bother us." I explained a bit more in my post to TC above, about this song and my own personal experience. It's like.."I know, bud....I know....it's going to be o...kay...it really is. Even just for today. We'll worry about tomorrow, tomorrow!"
Phew.......Thank you again Poet...you always bring out something great in your posts.
Jay. :-)
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 5, 2008, at 19:19:40
In reply to P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters (nm), posted by TexasChic on March 4, 2008, at 22:12:56
Gawd yes! I love the FOO's so much, and have wanted to see them live, but my work schedule won't permit it. :( My ultimate fav Foo song....."Best Of You"....here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DKXGpMGY_oThe song is about refusing, resisting, ever, to let somebody manipulate the good you are as a human....and remaining a GOOD, LOVING person.
Jay :-)
Posted by TexasChic on March 5, 2008, at 19:34:51
In reply to Re: Don't let THEM get the Best of You.... » TexasChic, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 5, 2008, at 19:19:40
That's my favorite too! You have to listen to that song as loud as possible!
As much as I love them, I feel like they haven't yet hit their stride. I'm patiently waiting...
-T
Posted by Phillipa on March 5, 2008, at 21:11:02
In reply to Re: P.S. I also love the Foo Fighters » Phillipa, posted by TexasChic on March 5, 2008, at 18:40:17
T you're right remember the visitor we had about a week ago who posted all the lovely videos and songs we're mailing each other he told me about the other guy don't know him either. Don't they sort of look alike? Love Phillipa
Posted by Racer on March 5, 2008, at 22:06:27
In reply to This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 4, 2008, at 20:12:00
> I've been looking for words to express myself as of late, especially about how I feel about people treating each other. What I feel is not very good.This is just a general feeling. I really feel it on the PB med board, and on Social I find a few people who are just so giving and caring. That is what I have always envisioned the ultimate in being a human is.
I think sometimes people perceive certain behavior as being unkind, when it's actually meant as kindness. This is a story that I think involves the same sorts of principles, even though it's an animal story.
Years back, one of my horses colicked at night. Colic is often fatal in horses, and one of the most dangerous things is for them to lie down, because their intestines can twist, which is what kills them. I was beside myself, and hysterical -- unmedicated, depressed, etc -- and watching as one person after another tried to help keep her on her feet, and walking. It was horrible. And I called someone to bring me a whip.
Half the people there reacted as though I was guilty of kicking a puppy -- my horse is sick, and I'm calling for a whip? Yes -- and as soon as I spanked her, and she started walking properly, she passed wind -- a sign that something was starting to happen properly in her gut, a sign that she might actually live through the night. Those who were trying to baby her along, only asking her to move a tiny bit -- that might have looked like the kinder treatment, but it's also the sort of treatment that could have resulted in her death.
The very best favor anyone ever did me felt at the time like a huge rejection, a huge slap in my face -- and I've thanked him nearly every time I've spoken to him in the seventeen years since then. It felt bad, but it was the right thing to do, and even at the time, I knew it. Sometimes when you love someone, you show it by being honest, as gently as you can. And sometimes when you care about someone, you show it by setting limits.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it may be that part of what you're reacting to on meds may be a different way of showing the same sort of caring you see here. Just, you know, shown in a different way.
When she was healthy, I played with that horse like a puppy -- and she always had a big grin and a whuffle for me when she saw me. She loved me -- despite spanking her when she had a tummy ache.
Posted by seldomseen on March 6, 2008, at 10:29:00
In reply to This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 4, 2008, at 20:12:00
>>>> I really feel it on the PB med board, and on Social I find a few people who are just so giving and caring. That is what I have always envisioned the ultimate in being a human is>>>>
I have a slightly different take on this.
To me, humans are studies in contradiction. We create Abu Ghraib AND Handel's Messiah. We engineer the atomic bomb and the sistine chapel. We participate in the holocaust AND the Red Cross.
I think we are good, bad, ugly, beautiful, selfish, selfless, aggressive, peaceful, full of grace, judgemental, arrogant, humble, liars, leaders, benevolent, egregious, charming, evil, ridculous, serious, child-like, grieving - you name it. We encompass it all.
I think that is the ultimate human condition.
In my opinion, it is true for us as a species, and for individuals. We hold many contradictions.One of my favorite poems every is Walt Whitmans' "Song of myself"
It contains a line
"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"I don't think there is one pure thing. There is no one pure love, there is no one pure joy, no one pure sadness. As much as it pains me to say it, I am now convinced that there is no one truth, but a collage of many.
I think to be truly empathetic you must accept and ultimately embrace it all.Sure we can desire only good and condemn the bad, but in the end, we are only human - warts and all.
Seldom.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 6, 2008, at 12:24:25
In reply to Maybe it's a question of perspective? » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Racer on March 5, 2008, at 22:06:27
> > I've been looking for words to express myself as of late, especially about how I feel about people treating each other. What I feel is not very good.This is just a general feeling. I really feel it on the PB med board, and on Social I find a few people who are just so giving and caring. That is what I have always envisioned the ultimate in being a human is.
>
> I think sometimes people perceive certain behavior as being unkind, when it's actually meant as kindness.
>
>
>
Well, the story you mention is like any kind of doing something on 'compassionate grounds' that we don't want to do. Like 'putting down' a wounded animal would be the same thing.What I am getting at is in the realm of humanistic psychology of Rogers and Fromm and even more current examples like John Bradshaw (His whole 'Homecoming' series is amazing) and of course the loveable, man-of-a-million-hugs, the late Leo Buscaglia.
In relation to humans, I really can't believe how the masses have abused and misused the concept of 'tough love'. It just sickens me to no end. The so-called 'evidence' presented that 'tough love'-like 'interventions' work is weak and almost non-existent. Yet 'pop-psychology' has grabbed onto this idea like it was a religious command. There IS a lot of evidence that it does harm. These 'interventions' as they are called, often cause extreme anxiety, and drive the victim to desperate measures, many times with tragic outcomes. One famous example is that of Kurt Cobain. Just a week after his 'intervention', he blew his head off. Friends and family admit that the 'intervention' seemed to cause almost 'paranoid' behaviour in Kurt, and he isolated himself after the fact.
I believe I can be firm while still being the Gentle-Jay I am. lol. I do it in my job as a social worker, and try very hard in my personal life. Of course nobody is perfect! I'll be the first to admit that! When you care and love somebody passionately, tempers can flare, and some pretty harsh things can be said. I've spent countless times apologizing for some of the nasty stuff I've said. It's part of the intensity of love. But, I am proud to admit I have always apologized.
I guess what I am saying is that we can be both graceful and honest. But, the idea is to focus on the good in everyone. And, by that, I don't mean constantly using exception statements like, "You are good, but..."..
IMHO,
Jay
Posted by Sigismund on March 6, 2008, at 14:07:36
In reply to Re: Maybe it's a question of perspective? » Racer, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 6, 2008, at 12:24:25
>, I really can't believe how the masses have abused and misused the concept of 'tough love'. It just sickens me to no end.
Look what they did with what Jesus had to say, or anyone perhaps, even Marx and Freud.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 6, 2008, at 15:12:21
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by seldomseen on March 6, 2008, at 10:29:00
> >>>> I really feel it on the PB med board, and on Social I find a few people who are just so giving and caring. That is what I have always envisioned the ultimate in being a human is>>>>
>
> I have a slightly different take on this.
>
> To me, humans are studies in contradiction. We create Abu Ghraib AND Handel's Messiah. We engineer the atomic bomb and the sistine chapel. We participate in the holocaust AND the Red Cross.
>
> I think we are good, bad, ugly, beautiful, selfish, selfless, aggressive, peaceful, full of grace, judgemental, arrogant, humble, liars, leaders, benevolent, egregious, charming, evil, ridculous, serious, child-like, grieving - you name it. We encompass it all.
>I strongly disagree, sorry. As I pointed out, we all have our 'moments of weakness', and I will be the first person to say I am far from perfect. But, the life you build, and you are a part of, which much includes many family members, close friends, is a cluster of values, morals, beliefs, etc. In your role in that family, you can play a part in building those things, and building the goodness of those things. You do have a choice. Once those seeds are planted in a family, they can bloom into other members and in turn, they can influence close friends and society. Psychology teaches us children aren't born with racism, sexism, hatred, etc. If one chooses to succumb to these things, they have to take responsibility for it. No, we *do not* encompass all of the evil and purposeful hurt. Many, many people have devoted their lives to speaking out against such things as political aggressors, political liars, racism, nationalism, inequality, etc.
I had a Yiddish Jewish friend who's Mom survived life in the Dachau concentration camp. His father had also, and his parents moved here to Canada just after they where liberated. Unfortunately his Dad died, when my friend was a young boy, of some of the effects from the camps. So, his Mom raised him alone, and she was such a *good* person. When we got a bit older, I asked her about life in the camp, and how she could come out such a happy, giving person, even after her husband had died from being in the camp. She basically said, "I will never, ever let myself become as hateful and vengeful as the Nazi's, because if that happens, I know it is all over for me. Everything I went through will have taught me nothing." Author Eli Weitzel says much of the same thing in his amazing book, "Night".
I leave with a couple of things. One, the lyrics to the song "Grace", by U2 (written by Bono of course) and two, the UN Declaration of Human Rights. It's quite simple to do 'right', to be 'good' and be 'graceful'. We badly need so much more of it.
Grace
She takes the blame
She covers the shame
Removes the stain
It could be her nameGrace
It's a name for a girl
It's also a thought that
Changed the worldAnd when she walks on the street
You can hear the strings
Grace finds goodness
In everythingGrace
She's got the walk
Not on a wrapper on chalk
She's got the time to talkShe travels outside
Of karma, karma
She travels outside
Of karmaWhen she goes to work
You can hear the strings
Grace finds beauty
In everythingGrace
She carries a world on her hips
No champagne flute for her lips
No twirls or skips
Between her fingertipsShe carries a pearl
In perfect condition
What once was hers
What once was friction
What left a mark
No longer stainsBecause grace makes beauty
Out of ugly thingsGrace finds beauty
In everythingGrace finds goodness
In everything
----
On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."
PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,
Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,
Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,
Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2008, at 16:04:49
In reply to Re: Maybe it's a question of perspective? » Racer, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 6, 2008, at 12:24:25
> > >
> In relation to humans, I really can't believe how the masses have abused and misused the concept of 'tough love'.I agree -- the concept of "tough love" strikes me as misinterpreting the fundamental problem, in many cases. (I won't say most, only because I'm against anything that smacks of absolutes or generalizations about human behavior this week...) Also, I'm cynical -- it seems to me that most of the people I've heard encourage "tough love" tactics are more tough than loving... (I'm trying to be diplomatic. My guess is that there was someone who was gentle, loving, and well meaning who came up with the idea in the first place, and that I haven't come across that sort -- my innocence, not a problem with the concept itself.)
>
> And, by that, I don't mean constantly using exception statements like, "You are good, but..."..I grind my teeth when I hear anything like that -- "Don't get me wrong, I like [x], but..." Um, yeah, I'm not getting you wrong -- you just don't like [x]!
I guess what I was trying to say, badly, because I'm not communicating well this week, is that it can be caring to let someone know that you expect a certain respect for social conventions. I am late, so can't continue this now. What I'm talking about has a lot more to do with limit setting by parents, or encouraging good behavior in horse training through negative reinforcement -- you don't punish, you just make doing the right thing a whole lot more pleasant. You also have to make it easy, by being clear what your expectations are.
Gotta run.
Posted by seldomseen on March 6, 2008, at 20:09:02
In reply to Re: This feeling of a PB Grudge Warn **Suicide Trigger » seldomseen, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 6, 2008, at 15:12:21
No need for apologies. I absolutely hear you and understand and respect where you are coming from.
I just think the essence of grace is indiscrimate.
Seldom.
Posted by Kath on March 6, 2008, at 20:43:32
In reply to Maybe it's a question of perspective? » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Racer on March 5, 2008, at 22:06:27
Wow Racer - I'm printing out that story about your horse & the tummy ache & whip etc.
I have a sneaky little feeling that at some point, that story might help me. I'm hoping that I'll never need to refer to it, but if I DO need to, it really points out very clearly what my Mom used to say years ago, "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind".
Thanks, Kath
Posted by Racer on March 9, 2008, at 21:23:55
In reply to Re: Maybe it's a question of perspective? » Racer, posted by Kath on March 6, 2008, at 20:43:32
> it really points out very clearly what my Mom used to say years ago, "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind".
I have heard that expression before, but it has always kinda bothered me. I hate the idea of "being" cruel, you know? How about we make a little change, and see if it's better:
"Sometimes, you have to *seem* cruel in order to *be* kind."
I like that better, don't you? ;-)
>
> Thanks, KathYou're welcome. Always.
Posted by Kath on March 10, 2008, at 16:27:17
In reply to I think I want to change that a little... » Kath, posted by Racer on March 9, 2008, at 21:23:55
>> "Sometimes, you have to *seem* cruel in order to *be* kind."
>
> I like that better, don't you? ;-)
MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-))))(((((((you)))))))))))) luv, Kath
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