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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on December 10, 2003, at 21:53:59
I was ok. I was dealing. PMS, but dealing. I talk to her for six minutes and it's gone. I say, 'Gotta go now, mom'. She says as an afterthought, 'Well how are you?'.
Always, at the end of the conversation, when she's passively slayed me and I finally say Uncle, she innocently asks how I am. It's really amazing. She had the whole rest of the phone call to ask, but chose to undermine me instead, and make sure to let me know I've offended my brother--who lives to offend me. So I survive by staying out of contact, and then get punished for it. Does she care *why* I'm not in contact? No, she just digs at me like a three year old.
Then I talk to my other brother who, in a terrific display of emotional regression himself, tells me to shut up because I have said something wrong. But it is like saying something wrong to a small boy.
What is wrong with this picture. Spawned from a family of narcissists I have no tools to deal with anything, and can barely escape with my life after having any contact with them. But then I am punished for not having any.
Posted by octopusprime on December 10, 2003, at 22:05:02
In reply to Mother buttons., posted by kara lynne on December 10, 2003, at 21:53:59
hi kara lynne
boy i am on a roll with the anger posts tonight. might as well keep on typing.
for you, my dear, i present the anger toolkit: possible conversation pieces based on the detailed information you've given me.
try these on:
for your mom:
"<brother's name> is an adult. if he is angry with me, he can speak to me himself. i don't want to discuss this with you."or maybe 30 seconds into the call -
"somebody's at the door, bye mom!"for your brother:
"pardon me? i don't appreciate being told to shut up."you could also include a little thing like, "i treat you with respect, and i expect you to treat me the same way."
i'll be here all night :)
Posted by kara lynne on December 10, 2003, at 22:33:36
In reply to anger redux - the toolkit!, posted by octopusprime on December 10, 2003, at 22:05:02
I wish I could tell you how infuriating it is to talk to my mother. Anytime I say anything at all having to do with the truth, if I were to say somthing like that to her she would viciously defend herself and say she wasn't doing that, and become again, a three year old. So the only thing I can do is get off the phone, I guess. I'm so mad right now--I was so mad talking to her I wanted to shake her, and worse. She just invalidates every single solitary thing of importance I say, and becomes psychotically defensive.
Still I very much appreciate what you've written; I'm trying on all sorts of possible things I could say anyway, and then just hang up if I have to. I'm thinking maybe I'll say I simply cannot talk to her anymore if she's going to mention my brother's name.
I'm going to go lie down.
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2003, at 22:36:35
In reply to anger redux - the toolkit!, posted by octopusprime on December 10, 2003, at 22:05:02
You're good at this. I like these very much. :)
> for your mom:
> "<brother's name> is an adult. if he is angry with me, he can speak to me himself. i don't want to discuss this with you."My absolute all time favorite family line. I use it constantly since my therapist convinced me it was appropriate.
>
> or maybe 30 seconds into the call -
> "somebody's at the door, bye mom!"
>
Another favorite. Also we have it hooked up so that my father's calls have a different sounding ring. Very handy indeed.> you could also include a little thing like, "i treat you with respect, and i expect you to treat me the same way."
>
Now this one is great for use with children. I don't think I had to use it more than once or twice with my son when he was quite small, and I haven't had a bit of sassiness or attitude since. A real winner when it's backed up with truth.> i'll be here all night :)
Well, I would hate to take advantage of your expertise. But really, you're quite good at this. :)
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2003, at 22:43:22
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit! » octopusprime, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2003, at 22:36:35
Oops. I mis-spoke. My family's variant on this one is "I understand that you're angry with Dad(Mom)(Sibling) but that is between you and him (her). I don't wish to be brought into the middle of this because I care for you both. If you insist on discussing this further, I'm afraid I'll have to hang up."
Oddly it's worked out pretty well. Perhaps they realize that I'm also not listening to tales from the other one.
>
> > for your mom:
> > "<brother's name> is an adult. if he is angry with me, he can speak to me himself. i don't want to discuss this with you."
>
> My absolute all time favorite family line. I use it constantly since my therapist convinced me it was appropriate.
Posted by octopusprime on December 10, 2003, at 23:09:09
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit!, posted by kara lynne on December 10, 2003, at 22:33:36
((kara lynne))
oh dear.
dealing with those that have alternate versions of reality is difficult.
but people can't cross our boundaries.
you should not have to accept your mother's denial of her own behaviour - by denying it, she's denying you your own experiences and invalidating your feelings.maybe you don't have to hang up the phone on her - maybe just give her the choice to change the topic of conversation? "i don't want to discuss this with you, let's talk about XXX instead" should be a tool in your arsenal. your life your rules.
maybe you can take her to therapy so you can learn to communicate? just a thought. it's an uphill slog.
have a good rest.
Posted by octopusprime on December 10, 2003, at 23:11:17
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit! » octopusprime, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2003, at 22:36:35
> Well, I would hate to take advantage of your expertise. But really, you're quite good at this. :)
nobody's ever told me in my life that they were unaware of my feelings on any topic :p
so since i'm avoiding a chore, feel free to shoot topics my way.
Posted by kara lynne on December 11, 2003, at 0:34:15
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit! » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on December 10, 2003, at 23:09:09
- take her to therapy-
I'm afraid it's way past that point. She is the most therapy resistant human being on the planet. I just have to get a life so I have something in the plus section when things get so negative.
It's so hard to come to terms with the idea that she's never chosen to support me. I don't get it. I know men are more intrinsically valuable on her planet, but I thought it was kind of an innate, mammalian reflex for a mother to want to bond with a daughter. Mine was just always making sure I never got anything she might have wanted.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2003, at 11:37:55
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit!, posted by kara lynne on December 11, 2003, at 0:34:15
> - take her to therapy-
>
> I'm afraid it's way past that point. She is the most therapy resistant human being on the planet. I just have to get a life so I have something in the plus section when things get so negative.
>
> It's so hard to come to terms with the idea that she's never chosen to support me. I don't get it. I know men are more intrinsically valuable on her planet, but I thought it was kind of an innate, mammalian reflex for a mother to want to bond with a daughter. Mine was just always making sure I never got anything she might have wanted.If I may be so bold, as to offer up an opinion.....
I believe your mother wants you to suffer just as she did.....perhaps even excessively so....more than she ever did.
And, you want to get something from her that you know, in your heart, you never will get.
Been there.....I am sad to say.
Emotional detachment is the solution, IMHO, but achieving it is the hard part, of course. My solution has been to move towards feeling sorry for my mom....she's in so much pain, but I'm not hungry for her pain. She has no urge to change, no real urge, so I stopped trying to fix the unfixable.
Hugs, kara.
Lar
Posted by kara lynne on December 11, 2003, at 12:48:55
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit! » kara lynne, posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2003, at 11:37:55
Everything you say is true about my mother. It's just so hard to feel sorry for someone while they're insulting you and attacking by subterfuge, which seem the most evil of all in my family.
Did you ever read any Alice Miller?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2003, at 13:11:35
In reply to Re: anger redux - the toolkit!/ lar, posted by kara lynne on December 11, 2003, at 12:48:55
> Everything you say is true about my mother. It's just so hard to feel sorry for someone while they're insulting you and attacking by subterfuge, which seem the most evil of all in my family.
Make rules about it, is all I can suggest. "When you talk to me like that, I will hang up." And do it. That sort of stuff. Detachment is also a function of distance. If it's in person, walk away. You know? Change the subject. Over and over again, "So, what about those Kings?"
> Did you ever read any Alice Miller?
Dance of Anger, et al? Too many years ago to remember explicitly, but yes.
Lar
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