![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2003, at 22:06:07
It sure seems like I complain about this relationship a lot here. We broke up but were 'being friends'. Lately we'd had a lot of contact. I was needing more support over quitting my job, and he was needing more support over starting meds. At one point we talked and he agreed we were OK as friends but our romantic relationship didn't work because we had different expectations. I thought OK, he's not just trying to get back with me, maybe he's really a friend.
We had a 'date' planned Saturday night to have dinner and go to some galleries. It was his idea. Right after dinner, before going to the art shows, he had an emotional meltdown, crying, very distraught, saying he still had feelings for me, he was upset I'd run into him earlier that day and had not asked him to join me on what I had planned for the day. He said he had to go home, and was crying most of the drive. It sounds sad, but even when we were together he'd put me through something like this about once a week. I'd be hostage to it until he'd calmed down, usually several hours later. Sometimes it felt really manipulative to me, like when the issue was me wanting a day to myself, and I'd end up spending most of the day giving him emotional support instead. He'd often get accusatory in the midst of wanting reassurance of my love, which made it very difficult. Try feeling loving to someone who's simultaneously attacking you and demanding affection.
So... I thought once we were 'just friends' I wouldn't have to go thru these scenes anymore. Now I feel like a big sucker. He was so sad and pitiful, and has been so depressed lately, I asked him to come in to talk. I was afraid to send him home because he'd been suicidal lately. We ended up spending the evening in heavy talk, mainly me reassuring him, and him wanting to get back together, though previously we'd agreed it didn't work. He finally calmed down and felt better and went home.
At one point I even considered having sex with him, sort of out of pity I guess. Thanks goodness I didn't act on that thought. I did give him lots of reassurance that he's still attractive to me. I really shored up his ego for him.
The next morning I was just resentful, and mad at myself for giving into it. Seems like part of our power struggle was always that I wanted to go out and do fun activities together, but he mainly just wanted lots of heavy interaction and emotional support. So he falls apart, and I take the bait and the whole evening is switched from fun activity to me playing therapist again. On Saturday night.
He called the next day to chat like nothing had happened. He didn't even apologize for the night before. I just feel numb toward him. I can't trust him to get through one evening. What can I get from this 'friendship'?
The logical thing to do is raise the issue with him, but in the past he's not been able to handle any feedback at all. He reacts defensively and counter-attacks, and it becomes another heavy scene, and I don't think he takes in any of it.
I'm trying to remember why I'm still friends with him. He's there for me when I'm needy, but when I'm not needy, and want to have a normal fun evening, he drags me down. Yuck. He does have a lot of good qualities, but at times like this I forget what they are. It just feels like I'll always give more than I get from this relationship.
Once again I'm thinking I should just cut him loose and make more effort to find new friends and new dates.
Posted by fallsfall on August 11, 2003, at 22:59:26
In reply to Complaining about the ex-boyfriend, posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2003, at 22:06:07
I think that part of the question is whether there is a balance of "neediness". You say: "I was needing more support over quitting my job, and he was needing more support over starting meds." Are they equal or is he needier?
Actually, in either case, if you are resentful of his neediness, then the friendship is probably not a good idea.
Posted by kara lynne on August 12, 2003, at 1:15:03
In reply to Complaining about the ex-boyfriend, posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2003, at 22:06:07
It does sound like it might be too 'expensive' to keep him as a friend. Even though it may be hard to let him go, if he's still not over you there will always be a significant strain on the relationship. Was it worth it to get the support you were looking for in the first place--or did you even get it?
Like you say he did these kinds of things even when you were together, so it's not likely to change anytime soon. Unless of course---the medication starts working!! Then I guess you could reconsider.
In the meantime, stay away from pity sex and take the advice you gave me: Pay attention to your intuition. : )
(Although my intuition is telling me to curl up in the fetal postion and never get out of bed...)
Posted by lostsailor on August 12, 2003, at 1:20:57
In reply to Complaining about the ex-boyfriend, posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2003, at 22:06:07
Never have sympathy sex. It just seems the ultimate in pity and something a male could get used to a use, too.
oh, and I mean the kind that is for your smpathy for him, not for your own needs:)
(((tabbs)))
~t
Posted by kara lynne on August 12, 2003, at 1:38:49
In reply to Re: Complaining about the ex-boyfriend--tabbs, posted by lostsailor on August 12, 2003, at 1:20:57
Why did you stop writing to me?
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 2:20:10
In reply to Complaining about the ex-boyfriend, posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2003, at 22:06:07
I'm thinking your intuition is right on target. If he still has feelings for you, friendship might not be all that healthy for him. It really doesn't sound like he's up for friendship yet. And while it's great that he'll be there for you when you need him, it sounds like his neediness may drain you more than his help supplies, at a time when you need your energy yourself.
Easier said than done, I know. :( Especially if you're worried about his mental state. Does he have a therapist you can safely leave him in the hands of?
Wouldn't it be nice if after a relationship there was a convenient way to have a cooling off period? I remember once in my thirteen year courtship, I requested a six week break in the relationship to determine whether we were together out of habit or genuine feelings. We lasted out the six weeks apart, and had a long conversation afterwards. All very romantic, I'm sure. :) But when you've dated someone since you were a kid, sometimes it's nice to make sure.
Posted by Kar on August 12, 2003, at 7:32:36
In reply to Complaining about the ex-boyfriend, posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2003, at 22:06:07
>At one point we talked and he agreed we were OK as friends
You brought this up and he agreed? I guess thar's a big difference...
You talk of different expectations in your romantic relationship...I think that applies to friendships too. In addition to that, I wonder (guys, help me out here and explain the phenomenon) if a relationship (I dont remember how long it was) can ever easily switch to "just friends"...can a guy ever handle that dynamic? Is the Harry Met Sally theory true? That guys can never be "friends" with a woman without wanting to sleep with her? Cuz if that's true then it will add yet another stressor to the relationship. Do you think we're the ones that usually use the "let's just be friends" thing? Is it because we don't really want to lose the support completely or is it because we just don't want to say, "You're out, buddy boy" and hurt their feelings?Someone asked what YOU are getting out of this- I think that's really really important. Esp since the whole dynamic has changed.
>Sometimes it felt really manipulative to me
If that's how it feels, chiquita, then I wonder about this.>spending most of the day giving him emotional support instead.
That's introspective of you. I think you probably already know how a "friendship" (what you consider a friendship) might play out.
>and has been so depressed lately,
It's esp. hard, isn't it?- when we KNOW what it's like to be down?>I did give him lots of reassurance that he's still attractive to me.
Is he? It may seem beside the point but...
> He called the next day to chat like nothing had happened.
grr.
>It just feels like I'll always give more than I get from this relationship.
Well there's you "aha!" dearie. I stayed in a relationship way too long, knowing full well that I was giving so much more than he was. Thinking things would change. It just doesn't feel good and it's not good for you.
It ain't fair...Oy that things were simpler...
Posted by Kar on August 12, 2003, at 7:52:54
In reply to Re: Complaining about the ex-boyfriend » Tabitha, posted by fallsfall on August 11, 2003, at 22:59:26
i bet you're a good friend. Your advice is always so "on".
Posted by bobby on August 12, 2003, at 9:48:23
In reply to You are wise, fallsfall, posted by Kar on August 12, 2003, at 7:52:54
I bet you are a good friend too. Just a quick hello so you won't think I'm too stuck up acknowledge your kind posts. Thanx Kar
bobby
Posted by lostsailor on August 12, 2003, at 10:21:20
In reply to Re: Complaining about the ex-boyfriend--tabbs, posted by lostsailor on August 12, 2003, at 1:20:57
Never have sympathy sex. It just seems the ultimate in pity to both parties and something a male could get used to and use to his advantage, too.
Oh, and I meant the kind of sex that is for your sympathy for him, not for your own needs:)
Kar brought up a good point re: The When Harry Met Sally syndrome. What I wonder, though, is does the theory, be honest, apply to both genders.
Tabbs, if you want this to work, try it. You have so much intellectually and in kindness that someone deserves it and you deserve someone who really can give as well as receive.
(((tabbs)))
~t
Posted by Kar on August 12, 2003, at 10:44:59
In reply to you are so nice Kar » Kar, posted by bobby on August 12, 2003, at 9:48:23
I mean it!
Posted by Kar on August 12, 2003, at 10:56:17
In reply to Re: rewrite without medhead, posted by lostsailor on August 12, 2003, at 10:21:20
>What I wonder, though, is does the theory, be honest, apply to both genders.
Nope nope nope. I think this one'll probably turn into its own thread, but I'll stay here for now. Because I just plain old don't like to start new threads. I'm odd that way.
I can't write that much now, but I don't think this applies to both sexes at all. And I'm not being sexist. I have plenty of male friends and naw, I don't want to sleep with them. They're just my friends. Now there have been men that have started out as friends and then progressed, but that's different. "Harry" didn't say that men *couldn't* be friends with women. There's just a funny little dynamic there. i asked my husband's best friend about this (one of my closest friends too now), and he said that it was pretty much true. I said, "So you would want to sleep with me?", and he said, "Well yeah, but I never would because Dave's my best friend"...I don't know. I think there are plenty of women who'd *stay* in a relationship for sex, but women seem to have the ability to be friends with youz guyz without actually wanting to do it.
Tony- you'd never know you had medhead in that last post!
Posted by Tabitha on August 12, 2003, at 12:08:53
In reply to Rewrite with medhead » lostsailor, posted by Kar on August 12, 2003, at 10:56:17
y'all are so terrific. After I posted this I was afraid folks would hate me for abandoning the depressed guy at his time of need. Instead you've all given me such supportive & balanced perspectives.
Dinah, I only wish he had a therapist. He still relies on his ex-wife a lot for support I think. I've been secretly hoping he'll turn to her more. He has phone support friends too, but I think they're kind of inconsistent.
Yeah, if his meds work, it may get better. But judging from my own experience it took me 10 years of therapy on top of meds to get over that kind of stuff. So I'm not holding my breath.
Someone (Kar?) asked about me reassuring him he's attractive. Well... when he's acting out all the neediness, he's not attractive. But up til then, he was still looking pretty cute to me.
Falls, your comment about how if I have resentment the friendship won't be a good idea kind of irked me at first. Unfortunately it's so common-sense and true. Thing is, I think he and I both have resentment toward each other, which is why we fought so much. Maybe we're still stuck trying to change or punish the other person for being who/where they are, and for not QUITE being what we both want in a partner.
Regarding the Harry/Sally idea, at one point I made a decision to stop having these pseudo-friendships with men, where I just want frienship, and they're wanting more. I'd had bad experiences with that setup. I'm a little more open to it nowdays. I have one friend, I know he's attracted to me and yes he wants to sleep with me, but I'm not attracted to him (he's in his 70s, it just doesn't work for me, though he manages to date plenty of women my age). Sounds like a bad setup, but it's been a pretty good friendship. This guy seems to have the maturity to be able to stay in 'friend' mode and not be pining for me, or pressuring me. When I'm with him it feels like a really warm friendship based on mutual enjoyment. So... I've decided it just depends on the situation. But nothing feels worse than that kind of friendship where you know you're hurting the guy, because he's pining for you, or worse, he keeps pressuring you for more, and you feel guilty for not wanting him that way. Yuck.
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 18:45:55
In reply to Re: Geepers..., posted by Tabitha on August 12, 2003, at 12:08:53
I've never had problems with having male friends. In fact, I've probably had closer male friends over the years than female ones. There's a different dynamic involved, and one that I guess I find appealing. Not sex, or even flirtation. Just an awareness of differences I guess. Firmness/softness yin/yang. Back in the old days some of them might have been attracted to me, but they never made it an issue. I guess even at my best I wasn't irresistible. ;)
And, Tabitha, could you suggest that he take that therapist plunge? One of my main reasons for seeing a therapist is to protect my family from the worst of my stuff (as I wish my parents had done). That and to maintain my status as a productive member of society. Maybe either therapy or certification that you don't need it should be compulsory upon graduation to adulthood. Sigh.
Posted by Tabitha on August 13, 2003, at 1:31:03
In reply to Re: Geepers..., posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 18:45:55
Dinah, regarding suggesting therapy.. he doesn't seem to want my advice too much, so I've stopped giving it. He's just about as resistant to psychology as he is to psychiatry. Plus I don't know if free therapy is as available as free meds.
Here's hoping my next boyfriend and I will have more similar values! And he'll have health insurance!
Sometimes I just think it might be impossible for me to date a guy who hasn't had therapy. I got into so much trouble with this guy because we had such different approches to processing conflict. It was total gridlock.
Posted by ROO on August 14, 2003, at 11:39:06
In reply to Re: Geepers... » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on August 13, 2003, at 1:31:03
Wow...that must be some 70 year old if he can
still get chicks your age!(Sorry to be so superficial, but I was so intrigued!)
Posted by Tabitha on August 14, 2003, at 12:21:00
In reply to Re: Geepers..., posted by ROO on August 14, 2003, at 11:39:06
Ain't it fascinating? I'd say he looks young for his age, maybe late 60s, but STILL! And the guy isn't rich either. Nor great looking. I guess it's the emotional warmth. Plus he seems a little bit unattainable-- always a challenge.
Posted by ROO on August 14, 2003, at 16:31:17
In reply to Re: Geepers... » ROO, posted by Tabitha on August 14, 2003, at 12:21:00
Man! What's he like? Describe him (personality
and looks)...he must have lots of charisma. Probably
Picasso could still get the young chicks at that age
too...(but then he was famous). Ever hear that Modern
Lovers song "Some guys try to pick up girls and get called assholes...
not like Pablo Picasso, He was only 5 foot 3 , but girls could not
resist his eyes...Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole..."Whoops, I might get PBC'd for this...
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2003, at 18:56:32
In reply to Re: Geepers..., posted by ROO on August 14, 2003, at 16:31:17
> Whoops, I might get PBC'd for this...
You guessed it... :-)
Bob
Posted by Tabitha on August 18, 2003, at 0:08:44
In reply to Re: Geepers... » ROO, posted by Tabitha on August 14, 2003, at 12:21:00
I just didn't call him all week. He called once and asked me to do something, but I was busy. I ran into him at the coffeeshop, he looked really bad, spacey and sad and just not healthy. I went over to talk, he was obviously hurt that I'd blown him off. When I left, no hug. First time no hug. I just felt guilty, and a little scared, that I've pushed him too far away finally, he won't be there if I need him anymore.
I just don't know how to maintain the relationship at a level that's workable for me. The thing with him getting the idea I wanted to get back together and getting hurt again was the worst possible outcome of 'being friends'.
So it seems like acquaintances is the next option. Not particularly friendly acquaintances. Oh well what do I expect? I guess it's good we talk to each other at all. There are far worse breakup scenarios.
OK it's been two needy men in a row for me now. Time for a change
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.