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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:17
hello...
i've been hesitant to post this. a few months ago, in july, i started a thread called "headache" in which i described having drunken sex with a bum who was squatting in my old burned-down house. what i didn't write was that i don't remember how a kiss turned into sex, but i do remember being, ahem, pardon me, f*cked, like i didn't move at all, i was on my back in a drunken daze letting this guy do his thing, and my minf was playing tricks on me telling me it was my friend M. that i was having sex with.
so a few days ago i bonded heavily & nicely with this girl who has anxiety and depression, along with PTSD from abuse and having been raped, and when i told her the story of having sex with the bum she took a long drag from her cigarette and said, "i think you were raped." based on that i was really out of my mind and non-particpant, put i did *acquisce.*
i don't know that labels qualify as very much anyway, i don' want to feel like a rape-survivor...o don't want it to be part of my repertoire....but my mind vlocks things out, i become nihislistic, who knows how much i agreed or disagreed?
anyway, here's my question: as a kid and teenager, i was verbally and physically abused pretty badly, and the results have resurfaced in my quasi-adult life. i'm just wondering if this sounds like rape or drunk sex--please be honest; i've gotta deal with it either which way...
thanks,
sar
Posted by Kristi on September 24, 2001, at 1:59:48
In reply to what are words? do they matter?, posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:17
Tough one chica..... before I answer, let me get your scope on something. Do you feel raped or do you feel like it was a drunken mess? And... is this something on your mind a lot?More to come..... kristi
> hello...
>
> i've been hesitant to post this. a few months ago, in july, i started a thread called "headache" in which i described having drunken sex with a bum who was squatting in my old burned-down house. what i didn't write was that i don't remember how a kiss turned into sex, but i do remember being, ahem, pardon me, f*cked, like i didn't move at all, i was on my back in a drunken daze letting this guy do his thing, and my minf was playing tricks on me telling me it was my friend M. that i was having sex with.
>
> so a few days ago i bonded heavily & nicely with this girl who has anxiety and depression, along with PTSD from abuse and having been raped, and when i told her the story of having sex with the bum she took a long drag from her cigarette and said, "i think you were raped." based on that i was really out of my mind and non-particpant, put i did *acquisce.*
>
> i don't know that labels qualify as very much anyway, i don' want to feel like a rape-survivor...o don't want it to be part of my repertoire....but my mind vlocks things out, i become nihislistic, who knows how much i agreed or disagreed?
>
> anyway, here's my question: as a kid and teenager, i was verbally and physically abused pretty badly, and the results have resurfaced in my quasi-adult life. i'm just wondering if this sounds like rape or drunk sex--please be honest; i've gotta deal with it either which way...
>
> thanks,
> sar
Posted by Jane D on September 24, 2001, at 3:36:57
In reply to what are words? do they matter?, posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:17
Sar,
Wow. You sure do raise some interesting questions.
I think it may depend on the answer to a couple of questions. Was he drunk, or otherwise incompetent, too? Was there any way that he could have (or should have) known that you weren't capable of consenting? If he was as drunk as you were I think the best parallel may be with sex between two minors. It may not involve a truly informed choice but, unlike sex between a minor and an adult, neither party is really to blame. If he was not falling down drunk AND he knew that you were it is a different matter.
I have to differ with Kristi on one point.
Words do matter. Whether you feel you were raped or not is important but, therapeutic philosphies notwithstanding, it does not in fact determine whether you were. Using the word rape invokes a legal meaning for most people, not a psychological one, and it is a very serious meaning. It determines whether someone else should go to prison. If you feel you were raped, when you were not, it just means is that certain experiences can make you feel the same way that being raped does.It was very important to broaden the definition of rape to include more than assaults by strangers using weapons. It is equally important not to cheapen the definition by including every instance where, in retrospect, sex should not have taken place.
None of that helps you answer what happened. From your description it sounds like you may never know. If it were me, I think I would decide to believe it was a drunken mistake. It probably was, you probably can't know for sure, and you'll have most of the world to keep you company.
Jane
Posted by Jane D on September 24, 2001, at 3:41:11
In reply to what are words? do they matter?, posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:17
Sorry Sar (and Kristi) -
I just reread Kristi's post more carefully and see that she was not saying that your feelings determined what happened but checking on how you were doing. A more appropriate response than mine. How are you doing?
Jane
Posted by Kristi on September 24, 2001, at 5:23:05
In reply to Re: what are words? do they matter?, posted by Jane D on September 24, 2001, at 3:36:57
> Sar,
>
> Wow. You sure do raise some interesting questions.
>
> I think it may depend on the answer to a couple of questions. Was he drunk, or otherwise incompetent, too? Was there any way that he could have (or should have) known that you weren't capable of consenting? If he was as drunk as you were I think the best parallel may be with sex between two minors. It may not involve a truly informed choice but, unlike sex between a minor and an adult, neither party is really to blame. If he was not falling down drunk AND he knew that you were it is a different matter.
>
> I have to differ with Kristi on one point.
> Words do matter. Whether you feel you were raped or not is important but, therapeutic philosphies notwithstanding, it does not in fact determine whether you were. Using the word rape invokes a legal meaning for most people, not a psychological one, and it is a very serious meaning. It determines whether someone else should go to prison. If you feel you were raped, when you were not, it just means is that certain experiences can make you feel the same way that being raped does.
Jane, I really feel I must defend myself..... I did not mean that in any shape or form. I wanted to get a feel of how Sar was, and how she was thinking, before I formed an opinion about what she was asking. She wrote what happened, but now how she felt. Do you know what I mean? Not did she feel for the guy.... but her whole general feel of the situation. She's asking for our opinion. I'm curious as to what hers is. If you wanted to go that far... what does "was he drunk too" matter?
> It was very important to broaden the definition of rape to include more than assaults by strangers using weapons. It is equally important not to cheapen the definition by including every instance where, in retrospect, sex should not have taken place.
>
> None of that helps you answer what happened. From your description it sounds like you may never know. If it were me, I think I would decide to believe it was a drunken mistake. It probably was, you probably can't know for sure, and you'll have most of the world to keep you company.
>
> Jane
Posted by Kristi on September 24, 2001, at 5:25:04
In reply to Re: what are words? do they matter? » sar, posted by Jane D on September 24, 2001, at 3:41:11
> Sorry Sar (and Kristi) -
> I just reread Kristi's post more carefully and see that she was not saying that your feelings determined what happened but checking on how you were doing. A more appropriate response than mine. How are you doing?
> Jane
Posted by paxvox on September 24, 2001, at 9:21:10
In reply to what are words? do they matter?, posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:32
Wow, that's a tough one, but I will humbly take a stab at it. First, I guess, I would have to ask how you allowed yourself to be in that situation with the bum. Not to be judgmental, but that sort of goes along with "if you don't want to get hot, stay out of the kitchen" mindset. However, considering your history that you offered, and again without real professional knowledge, I would suggest that, yes, you do have unresolved wounds from your teen years. About the only Freudian theory I ascribe to is the nature/nurture process of personality development. Sometimes its a matter of genetics, sometime a matter of time, place and situation. Now, as a resolution: Since this obviously concerns you (as it should, STD?) I would suggest you bring it up with a therapist, if you have one. I would not say you were raped or even "date-raped", but you may have allowed yourself to be in a situation you were not able to control the outcome of.
PAX
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 24, 2001, at 10:17:58
In reply to Re: what are words? do they matter? » sar, posted by paxvox on September 24, 2001, at 9:21:10
Pax brings up date rape. There were a couple of times in college where I would say I was "date raped" but at the same time I look back on it as very misguided decisions on my part.
I've also had sex with my husband and not "remembered it."
I had a friend who was sexually abused as a child so I do look at the acts differently.
Jane - we know you were giving legal advice and that you are a caring person. It is helpful.
All that said, I know at least somewhat how crummy you feel. Of course he shouldn't have taken advantage of the situation. And you'll never know exactly what happened. At least I've never regained those memories. And it makes me so angry. At myself. At the other person. At my inability to treat myself like I would my own child.
My guess is, you're not taking care of yourself yet, maybe partly because of the abuse from earlier years. But you will, Sar. The meds will help. You won't feel the need to drink as much, or put yourself in such dangerous situations, if you're like me. Of course you may start smoking again at age thirty.
- K.
Posted by Jane D on September 24, 2001, at 11:00:25
In reply to Control issues..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 24, 2001, at 10:17:58
> Of course he shouldn't have taken advantage of the situation. And you'll never know exactly what happened.
But without knowing exactly what happened you can't know whether he did take "advantage of the situation". It is possible to be hurt without having been taken advantage of. It's also possible not to be hurt and it may make life easier for you, Sar, if you assume that you will not be hurt by this experience. You seem very tough so it's a reasonable assumption.
Posted by Wendy B. on September 24, 2001, at 11:28:58
In reply to Control issues..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 24, 2001, at 10:17:58
sar,
this is so painful, i'm sorry it has stayed on your mind... i must confess, i always wondered what you made of that experience. i guess it's only now coming to the surface. sometimes we have to block things out for a while, i mean, you have been feeling so much better with the prozac & neurontin. i know that feeling, finding calm after the storm. it's good to talk about the possible 'rape' situation, though. everyone here is giving it thoughtful attention, as always...
i think krazy kat/kelly is right, as usual. it's an issue of control, whether you felt in or out of it, whether you felt abused or not, and would you know the difference, since, as you say, you were abused as a child. that's a tough one. if abuse gets to be second nature, like, oh that's a natural occurrence, then how can you tell who cares about you, when the people who were supposed to be taking care of you betrayed you as a little girl. they betrayed your trust, and abuse became the norm. of course you are having a hard time 'labeling' the incident, i.e., was it rape or not?.
all any of us can do now is own up to our own behavior, and take responsibility for our actions. for you, sar, i think it's all part of the eye-opening series of events (the car wreck, DWI), that booze won't dull the pain any more. it seems, seemed, like it was your friend, you enjoyed it. but look at the horror of the situation you were in. you could have gotten aids. or an std that could ruin your reproductive system, or far worse, etc, etc, etc.
it's a self-destructive cycle, and very common for the bipolar person: acting impulsively, getting howling drunk practically every day, spending too much money, and in this case, getting 'raped' and being too drunk to stop the thing from happening. having consensual sex, but doing it impulsively, as in having affairs behind your lover's back, all that is symptomatic. i hope you don't take what i'm saying the wrong way... i'm just trying to put it in perspective of the supposed traits of the bipolar personality. these are typical symptoms of the disease. i know your diagnosis is an issue, but i'd have to lean toward bipolar...
you're now on meds, and are able to take apart the things that have happened to you, now, once your brain has cleared because of the good effects on the neurotransmitters. but then the pain comes back, and you have to delve deeper... and that's very hard. it will take a long time to sort it all out.
just curious: if your parents did this to you, what happened to make it stop? you're living with them now, right? i bet you have an incredible amount of PTSD, maybe that's why you bonded with this new friend, because you have similar issues...? just a hunch...
i hope you answer kristi's question... where are you today?
love, natch,
W.> Pax brings up date rape. There were a couple of times in college where I would say I was "date raped" but at the same time I look back on it as very misguided decisions on my part.
>
> I've also had sex with my husband and not "remembered it."
>
> I had a friend who was sexually abused as a child so I do look at the acts differently.
>
> Jane - we know you were giving legal advice and that you are a caring person. It is helpful.
>
> All that said, I know at least somewhat how crummy you feel. Of course he shouldn't have taken advantage of the situation. And you'll never know exactly what happened. At least I've never regained those memories. And it makes me so angry. At myself. At the other person. At my inability to treat myself like I would my own child.
>
> My guess is, you're not taking care of yourself yet, maybe partly because of the abuse from earlier years. But you will, Sar. The meds will help. You won't feel the need to drink as much, or put yourself in such dangerous situations, if you're like me. Of course you may start smoking again at age thirty.
>
> - K.
Posted by Kristi on September 24, 2001, at 12:12:45
In reply to what are words? do they matter?, posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:17
Hi Sar....
You mentioned how good your mind is at blocking things out. Great quality I might add. I don't necessarily believe EVERYTHING has to be out in the open.
It sounds to me like you didn't think anything about this being rape until your friend brought it up... I guess the only thing you can do in this situation is what your good at---- block it out. Simply, if you don't want to add it to you repetoir.. don't. Cuz you may never know.
I don't remember any of my life until probably around age 10 or 11. I'm 33 years old now. A few years ago my brother told me that I lived with my grandparents until about that age. I WAS FLOORED. So obviosly I blocked that entire time frame out ... weird. I wanted to get hypnotized.. to see what happened back then... then thought... well, if my subconscience wants me to block out 10 years, there must be a reason and I'm not meant to know. My brother did tell me that he remembers(my grandfather was a coalminer in PA) that my grandfather used to lock me in the coal bin all day and send my brother down with some food and water. Crazy or what? Yet it doesn't hurt.... I don't remember it.
Anyway..... I went off the subject their... sorry.Have you been wondering about this since July, or was it telling your friend that made you think about it again and wonder? It' s nice that you found a friend you can share stuff like that with. Glad for ya. I wanted to ask.... do you go to school? Or have a job? I only know certain things about you.... believe it or not, nothing on the surface.
Take care hon..... you'll be ok, as you always are. Kristi
> hello...
>
> i've been hesitant to post this. a few months ago, in july, i started a thread called "headache" in which i described having drunken sex with a bum who was squatting in my old burned-down house. what i didn't write was that i don't remember how a kiss turned into sex, but i do remember being, ahem, pardon me, f*cked, like i didn't move at all, i was on my back in a drunken daze letting this guy do his thing, and my minf was playing tricks on me telling me it was my friend M. that i was having sex with.
>
> so a few days ago i bonded heavily & nicely with this girl who has anxiety and depression, along with PTSD from abuse and having been raped, and when i told her the story of having sex with the bum she took a long drag from her cigarette and said, "i think you were raped." based on that i was really out of my mind and non-particpant, put i did *acquisce.*
>
> i don't know that labels qualify as very much anyway, i don' want to feel like a rape-survivor...o don't want it to be part of my repertoire....but my mind vlocks things out, i become nihislistic, who knows how much i agreed or disagreed?
>
> anyway, here's my question: as a kid and teenager, i was verbally and physically abused pretty badly, and the results have resurfaced in my quasi-adult life. i'm just wondering if this sounds like rape or drunk sex--please be honest; i've gotta deal with it either which way...
>
> thanks,
> sar
Posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 21:31:32
In reply to what are words? do they matter?, posted by sar on September 24, 2001, at 1:32:17
dear all,
i think that until my new friend said "rape" i'd just taken the experience as part of my nihilistic spacey anything-goes repertoire...i've made drunk mistakes in the past, but this was the only situation in which my mind played tricks on me and my body did not move; this wasn't sex that felt good by any stretch of the imagination, it was just something that happened. i was much drunker than the bum, also being in the house again may have brought up some emotionalism--it was burned to a charcoal-crisp and i lost all of my belongings, uninsured.
i don't consider myself "raped." i think that i was probably at such a fuct-up point in my life that i'd truly lose myself regularly, lose all sense...after i had been f*cked by that guy, i bought more beer, drunk drove home, and tried to hang myself 'round 11 the next morning. i was a living ghost. i didn't try to stop him, fight him off...i don't remember what i thought except that i was doing whatever happened in an effort to *experience*...
it's kind of weird, i've just gotten off work and read all these posts that i appreciate so much, yet i was drunk enough last night to not remember at all today that i'd posted this until now! i just had to ask, i suppose, it's a crazy topic.
i wasn't sexually abused as a child as far as i know, though i have weird sexual dreams and i was a pretty sexually precocious kid (like at age 6). the abuse i endured mostly consisted of repeated neglect, verbal abuse, whipping hitting kicking slapping pushing hair-pulling etc...and yes, it was my parents.
today the temperature dropped to 'bout 70-80 degrees or so and my neurontin comfy-ed in even more, and i felt great. i *do* feel great. i feel so good i feel like i just took a tab of exstacy and am waiting for it to kick in. i don't expect for the mood to heighten, but today is...i've not felt so good in a long time.
i don't think i was raped. i think the guy took advantage of the situation (mentally ill drunk girl looking at charred remains)...i chalk it up to my illness, how i lose myself at my sickest...
thanks so much for your understanding. i really appreciate it.
kisses to Las Chicas,
sar
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