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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:01:18
But, it has me wondering on how much he should disclose. I know his sleeping pattern. I know exactly how involved he is with his children compared to how much his wife is. I know that his first instinct when confronted with a situation is to lie, and he has given examples. I know about some fights he has had with his wife. I know that his brother is emotionally detached (I know this because I asked if he had a brother [like I was hitting on him in a way]motionally detached :) I know that he does the laundry, ect , ect, ect...And these things have related to therapy...I realize there isn't a question in this post, but how much should I know??? (There's the question...) Most of these things I didn't ask, BTW... He just gave examples.
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 12:47:54
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
What I'd be interested in knowing is - has he been through therapy or is he currently in therapy?
I am not absolutely sure how I feel about some of the info he's shared with you. I do think it's not a cut and dry rule, in that some boundaries, I think, probably depend on the client. My T is loaning me her Harry Potter books on CD, so I can listen to them (I've read them all, but listening helps me get to sleep more easily at night!). So, obviously she trusts me. My pdoc has given me his home phone number, and I know where he lives, b/c he told me. I've heard about his kids, know what his youngest got for Christmas, have heard him on the phone with some of his children, I know about his parents, his brothers, etc. I know a good bit about him. And I know some about my T, though not as much. But my pdoc emphasizes to me that the reason he is comfortable sharing such info with me is because he's *not* doing therapy. He said he would never be so forth coming if he was doing therapy.
My T shares anecdotes at times to emphasize a point or something, but never anything quite as personal as your T, though I tend to think it's due to his age and lack of experience. I don't know, as I said, that that is a bad thing, but I do truly feel that he could benefit from supervision. If he has his Ph.D. in psychology and he's only 29, then if he's fully licensed he hasn't been for very long. How long have you been seeing him, Karen?
P
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:59:39
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
I don't get bent out of joint about those little day to day disclosures, especially if they have relevance to what you're discussing.
Sometimes, before a holiday when I don't want to get upset, I might tell him childhood stories from Christmas and then he might reciprocate. He certainly doesn't do the blank slate thing. There was a period when he was just trying to do too many things and it had a negative impact on his therapeutic effectiveness. When I (naturally) assumed that it was my fault, he explained. And now that I know, he'll refer to it occasionally.
I think he was probably nervous about telling me he was getting married (I prefer not to think of him as being a man) and if they ever have a baby I think he'd be terrified to tell me. Just because I'm likely to have all sorts of abandonment issues crop up and cause him trouble. But those sort of things really can't effectively be kept secret.
I think the question to self disclosure is this. Is it in the best interests of the therapist or the client? If it's done to make the therapist feel better, it's bad. If it's done to further the therapeutic aims of the client, or to strenghten the therapeutic bond, then it's probably good. If it is just to explain the unavoidably detected, it doesn't matter if it's good or bad, it probably should be done.
There have probably been occasions where my therapist missed the mark a bit. But no one's perfect.
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
Hi Karen, Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for a male therapist to tell an attractive female client about arguments he has with his wife.I think it is kind of like using you as a therapist and also disrespectful of his wife. Now if he just made a general statement, like "all marriages involve arguing at times" that would be fine. But do you mean he gives you specific details about arguments in his marriage?
Confession: My shrink, who is usually pretty by-the-book, once made a slip in a similar way. I was talking about an argumentative communcation style of my boyfriend at the time, and he said something like, "I know what you mean, I've experienced that in some relationship too." Of course, I had to press the issue, and asked with whom. He said, "my wife," and then quickly said, "but I shouldn't talk about that" and changed the subject. I could tell he knew that he shouldn't have said that as soon as it came out. He's never said anything sexual or went into details about arguments with her.
It made me feel weird enough to do some research on the internet, and here is one link that I happened to save on my hard dirve, in case the discussion came up again. It didn't, but here is the link, scroll down to self-disclosure blurb: http://www.division42.org/MembersArea/Nws_Views/articles/Ethics/boundaries.html
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:24:46
In reply to a link, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
Ok, I am going go try to post a long link, but if it doesn't go thru, here is the section I think you should read:
Questionable Self-Disclosure
• Details of current problems or stressors, personal fantasies or dreams, and social,
sexual or financial circumstances.• Inappropriate self-disclosure leads to a gradual erosion of treatment boundaries and
most common factor that precedes therapist-client inappropriate behaviour (Smith &
Fitzpatrick, 1995).• When the therapist’s communication burdens the client with the therapist’s problems
Now, let's try that link. It's kind of interesting and acknowledged the different views re: self-disclosure in different orientations, but it does say the some things are questionable (see above). Now, zee link: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:Z-cT4jKAEqEJ:www.psych.ucalgary.ca/students/courses/notes/f03/PSYC431/TherapistSelf-Disclosure.pdf+therapy+%22inappropriate+self-disclosure%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
In reply to a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:24:46
The previous link was from a college psychology course I am guessing? Looked like it.
Now, here is a link from a legal standpoint, not that you are off to court or anything, just to show you what can get therps in trouble http://kspope.com/ethics/malpractice.php
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:49:57
In reply to Re: a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
Two more links, and then I better get back to work!
This is about doctors, not therps, but go to the "Verbal Behavior" paragraph, and it explains what I have been trying to say. http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:eyTpONRdrhkJ:www.bmp.state.mn.us/Newsletters/fall97.pdf+%22boundary+violations%22+%22inappropriate+self-disclosure%22+%22boundary+violations%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Another link. Scroll down to Avoid sexual misconduct, the "Client signs" and "Therapist signs" sections. http://cmhs.utoledo.edu/npiazza/Courses/Orientation/Dual.htm
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 14:09:18
In reply to Re: a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
Posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:59:39
I think your therapist did the right thing. But I don't know if that falls under guidelines (the fact that he mentioned that he masturbates to you).
Btw, what is the standard guideline for sexual contact between a therapist and a client? How long after termination is that acceptable?
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:29:44
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 1:22:21
> I told my Therapist that if they ended up in therapy at 40, I want them to talk about their DAD, not me! LOL
That's so funny! I said almost the same thing to my therapist when he made the comment he did. I told him I'll just let my husband screw our son up instead. Right, like I'm not going to take full responsibility for everything that happens to my kid. Well, I should say for all of the *bad* things that happen, but I suppose that's a topic for another day...
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 14:32:38
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh?, posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
> Btw, what is the standard guideline for sexual contact between a therapist and a client? How long after termination is that acceptable?
The APA says 2 years I think (I think it's in one of the articles Joslynn linked to), but some groups say never. Never is the safe standard - sexual contact even with a former client could end a therapist's career, if a lawsuit should arise or something of that nature. And I can't see how it could ever be truly mentally or emotionally healthy for the former client. I guess there are always exceptions to the rules, but IMO, too many chances...
P
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:33:46
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long), posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:29:44
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:42:35
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
> I just appreciate the fact that he doesn't always ask, "Why do you want to know the answer to that questin, ect." when we've been working together and it's fairly obvious.I hate that kind of response, too. But I know it's probably good for me most of the time. *sigh*
> I sometimes wonder if when I have children, if I'll cause themto be in therapy. I only hope if they are that they'll have a good therapist and they don't ask their therapist the type of questions I do. I'd have to punish them, regardless of age!I like your thinking. If you don't mind, I'm going to borrow it. If my son needs therapy, I will just hope he has a therapist as good as mine. And I hope he'll be brave enough to make the therapy work for him by asking the kinds of questions you do (don't sell yourself short). I've only been going for seven months, but I truly believe this is a turning point in my life and someday, maybe my son will be able to use therapy as a life changing/enhancing tool as well. But I digress...
Karen, we can only hope you procreate! You must pass down your fantastic sense of humor and of course your fabulous sense of style and good looks! : )
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 14:47:32
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh?, posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
He DID NOT say that he ever fantasized about me. He said that he has fantasized about clients, now that could mean past clients. I didn't feel like getting into great detail, as I felt I was prying (as well as other women he has been with and other people as well). He NEVER ONCE mentioned me. NEVER EVER EVER mentioned, made reference hinted at, looked lovingly into my eyes, ect ect, you get the hint....
I'm sorry... One could say that maybe he does or doesn't. One could say that he thinks about my mom on occassion to. Come to think of it, I mentiojned how beautiful my sister is and he asked if I had a picture. One could say that when I bring in a picture of my sister next week, he may have fantasies about me AND my sister. However, I doubt that highly! (And the reference to my sister is too much!! We were actually talking about how I believe she was abused, and I have a knack for bringing in pictures of my family...) I just had to bring that example up...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:01:34
In reply to a link, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
Ok, I know (or am fairly certain) that the reason for disclosing the one petty and one rather serious arguments were somewhat relative to therapy. One that he constantly gets into with her is the fact that when he does something forgettful or silly like leaving the lid off the peanut butter, and she busts him, he lies about it. Now, I wonder what that had to do with in the first place. And he told me another story, but he wasn't going to but he started to and stopped. And of course I wouldn't have it. But, it related to how stopping negative thoughts and calming yourself down can change a situation. I guess his wife went out shopping with her mother and he was supposed to meet her but he couldn't find his car keys and his child took his diaper off and went #2 on the carpet (ICK!) and so he couldn't meet his wife and she kept calling to find out why he wasn't there, but he changed his thoughts,ect and she got take out and they lived happily ever after. And I also know about a rather big fight they had where his wife was griping about him not helping with the children while he was studying for his big test (?? anyone know what test??) and he got mad and stormed out.. I can't remember how that related but I'm sure it did. He doesn't just tell me these things because I say, "How's your week been?" or anything, but hmmm....
Our relationship is really headed in the right direction. So, I don't see that it is interfering with therapy if he is overdisclosing on occassion... And it helps to fill up the dead air sometimes.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:12:28
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » Karen_kay, posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:42:35
Sorry Elle and Miss Honey, you've been officially bumped in rank. If you don't know why, see this post :) By the way All Done, we're planning a sleep over in DC, wanna go? Gonna be lots'o fun!
Oh, and did you mention something about a son?I want a therapist with a motto similar to Radio Shack, "You've got questions, We've got answers!" I was also talking to my therapist about how I tend to be passive agressive towards my friends and promise them things (clothes, visits, ect) and dont' always come through if they slight me. He said that your word is all you have. I said, "When I die and God judges me, I want him to say "Now Karen, you didn't always keep your word, but while you were on Earth, you were one hell of an entertainer and for that I'm granting you a spot in heaven. Come on down!" We both got a kick out of that one and that's how I feel. I'm not good at keeping my word and I'm quick to promises things that I try to deliver. But I'm pretty good at entertaining people. I should try harder to stick to what I'm good at...
So, about your son....
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 15:31:33
In reply to AllDone's my fav :) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:12:28
> Sorry Elle and Miss Honey, you've been officially bumped in rank. If you don't know why, see this post :) By the way All Done, we're planning a sleep over in DC, wanna go? Gonna be lots'o fun!
> Oh, and did you mention something about a son?
>
> I want a therapist with a motto similar to Radio Shack, "You've got questions, We've got answers!" I was also talking to my therapist about how I tend to be passive agressive towards my friends and promise them things (clothes, visits, ect) and dont' always come through if they slight me. He said that your word is all you have. I said, "When I die and God judges me, I want him to say "Now Karen, you didn't always keep your word, but while you were on Earth, you were one hell of an entertainer and for that I'm granting you a spot in heaven. Come on down!" We both got a kick out of that one and that's how I feel. I'm not good at keeping my word and I'm quick to promises things that I try to deliver. But I'm pretty good at entertaining people. I should try harder to stick to what I'm good at...
>
> So, about your son....Wow Karen! I would love to join you guys and I'm glad I'm your "fav", but I like Miss Honey and Elle a lot, too. So don't make them sad : (. But if you're wanting me to bring my son (I think that's what your wanting - correct me if I'm wrong), I must alert you to the fact that he's only 19.
MONTHS!
Although he did get a marriage proposal from one of his daycare teachers the other day. She said she's going to marry him 18 years from now. Hmm...I wasn't quite sure if I should accept for him or not. ; )
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:32:21
In reply to two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:49:57
Darn you and your stupid links.....
Ok, so there are two things that were said during that session that I just kinda let go.
Number one. In my dream about him he referred to a vineyard, whcih didn't apply to me, which could because the town that I used to live in had a winery that shared my last name. He doesn't know this and I said that. He said that in my dream my illusion of him being my father figure and also my crush is dying. He said that the vineyard could represent the crush as in "Let's go get drunk and have sex." (not as in an offer, just that was his explanation) We went on to describe the second part of the dream.
Also, I think everyone knows that I have anxiety and I have "issues" with changing my clothes several times a day, ect. The more anxiety I have, the more effort I put in to looking nice. I had to reschedule early in the morning next week and he said, "Well, you don't have to get all dressed up just for me." This isn't so strange, as I have gotten all dressed up for him in the past. That particular day however, I looked nice because I was anxious about the session. It jsut bugged me.... Now I'm thinking to much into little stuff I think. Someone needs to do a ride along with me next week. Any takers?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:51:11
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 12:47:54
Penny,
It will be a year in February. And he's only been doing it for maybe a few years. Not long. He admits he's new at this. And he admits he makes mistakes. And I'm quick to point them out when I feel he's done something wrong. But, I honestly don't think he has in this case. Maybe I will approach the subject again jsut to let him know he shouldn't tell anyone else that sort of information. That isn't something you want getting out you know. He admits that he learns a lot from working with me. I only wonder if that's a good thing or bad? :(
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 18:45:04
In reply to a link, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
I liked the first link. I think my therapist would fare very well under it.
But some of the legal links bothered me quite a bit. If a therapist is going to go around terminating clients because they have feelings for them because they're afraid of being sued, they just shouldn't be in the helping professions. The therapist/client relationship shouldn't be an adversarial one, and the lawyers will make it into that if you let them. I would be enormously disappointed in my therapist if he behaved in a manner harmful to a client for fear of being sued.
There's very little more harmful to a client than abandonment. And abandonment for expressing your feelings is cruel beyond measure.
(But I would like to sit on my therapist's lap sometimes, and have him smooth my hair back. Nothing sexual and not that he or I would ever act on it, but wouldn't it be soothing?)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 18:47:30
In reply to stupid links..., posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:32:21
I'm just upset to find my therapist fit the description... Also, there is another thing I remember that he said that bothers me and I just remembered it. I mentioned that I recently found out that my boyfriend opposes same sex marriages, and my therapist said, "Why does he have something against anal sex?" And of course in that situation I overdisclosed, but it led to a discussion on prolife/prochoice (where he asked if I were to become pregnant and possibly considered an abortion what would my boyfriend think and I said, "It wouldn't be his decision. It is my body and choice." He gave me a thumbs up for that.) But looking back I'm a little shaky about his joke...It would have been acceptable for me to have made such a comment, but I now realize I not there to listen to his innapropriate jokes. He's there to listen to mine. (insert half smile)
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 19:05:21
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 15:51:11
At 29 he would have to be new at it, if he has a Ph.D. in psychology. Those are typically long programs!
And I'm sure all therapists, no matter how much experience they have, make mistakes. Our discussions on this board are evidence of that!
And truly, Karen, it sounds like he really wants to do a good job as a therapist. But, to me, he needs a little guidance, hence the supervision idea. I think most/all therapists, no, I'll just say all therapists should occasionally undergo supervision of some sort. Because it's a tough profession. And it's intended to protect his clients and himself. Being so new at this, I would hope he is already being mentored or supervised by someone in a way, but if not, he really should consider it (IMO).
I think it's great that he's such a good fit with you, and I would imagine that he isn't so frank with his clients who aren't as laid-back as you are, but if he is, he's really opening himself to a lawsuit.
Anyway...I hope this came across the way I meant it! It's so hard to tell when writing.
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 19:09:19
In reply to Re: a link » Joslynn, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 18:45:04
(But I would like to sit on my therapist's lap sometimes, and have him smooth my hair back. Nothing sexual and not that he or I would ever act on it, but wouldn't it be soothing?)
**Umm, no. I can honestly say I don't even find the thought of this soothing. I can't get past the sexual thought that is associated with sitting on a member of the opposite sex's lap though. I could say that him holding me and smoothing my hair back would be soothing, until I look up and he kisses me...... Darn it....
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 19:29:08
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 19:05:21
I think it came across just swell! :) And I'm fairly certain he seeks supervision of some sort. On my way out of the session this week, I made the comment, "I'd like to speak to your supervisor. Of course it would only be to tell him/her what an excellent job you're doing." And he made the comment that, "No news is good news in that department." He's the youngest therapist in the building, so I highly doubt they would throw him out there to the wolves. (me being a wolf :)
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 19:35:49
In reply to Re: a link » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 19:09:19
He's the opposite sex??!!! :-O
I think of him as a mommy.
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