![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 15:36:16
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 15:14:15
I may have bought a News Ltd paper since the Whitlam dismissal in 1975, one or two at the most. It was disgusting and unfair. 43 years ago, is it?
Surprisingly Rupert has always felt himself to be an outsider, not one of the elites. Just who 'the elites' are is an open question. Probably the Guggenheim for offering Trump the golden toilet rather than the Monet. They are said to talk daily.
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 15:48:53
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 15:36:16
All of Hitler's really frightening threats mentioned being laughed at.
GWB made Nixon seem like a strategic genius. Trump makes GWB look like a humanitarian.
I only realised that after the invasion of Western Europe Hitler had few options left. The oil from Romania was never going to be half enough. He simply needed oil from the Caucuses. The offer he sent with Hess to England has the usual feel. I can't remember it all but it included the offer to leave the Jews of western Europe in peace, which is why the British can never release it.
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 16:03:25
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 15:48:53
This is the one I thought might give me a heart attack, when Tony Abbott was PM.
Posted by beckett2 on September 20, 2018, at 19:53:27
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 16:03:25
I like FDOTM (there is a 't' in there?), although I don't understand the AU culture very well. The other two I find offensive, as you say in so many words, cruel.
The Serena incident, on the court, for whatever reason, seemed beyond the pale. Did you see any of it?
> This is the one I thought might give me a heart attack, when Tony Abbott was PM.
>
> https://firstdogonthemoon.com.au/cartoons/2015/06/19/week-in-review-monstrous-incompetence-is-the-new-black/
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:20:36
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » sigismund, posted by beckett2 on September 20, 2018, at 19:53:27
>The Serena incident, on the court, for whatever reason, seemed beyond the pale. Did you see any of it?
No, but I read about it. Mainly I was interested in the claims that complaining about the cartoons was a denial of free speech. "Political correctness gone mad".
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:38:45
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » sigismund, posted by beckett2 on September 20, 2018, at 19:53:27
>The other two I find offensive, as you say in so many words, cruel.
And not funny. Unless you find someone just breaking a rule funny.
FDOTM (yes, we need the T to be ridiculous) has a layer of self mockery that really adds to it. He draws himself as a bloke (dog?marsupial?) staring at a screen in a constant state of outrage.
Which reminds me of what Brian Dawe said about John Clark's humour...that it came from a state of outrage. We think of him as Australian but he was from NZ. He was so quick, clever and good. He died bush walking up Mt Abrupt, which would have amused him.
Here is an old one.......
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:57:52
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:38:45
It was a once a week show around news time.
Posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 21:17:23
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:57:52
This was one of my favourites. I forget all cabinet ministers he is impersonating, but the slippery style is what I like. From 2006?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRcklLXj-9Q
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 3:55:23
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » beckett2, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:20:36
I don't know that I find the 'racist' cartoons to be 'racist'.
It is a very sad reality that that is the situation in the Northern Territory. Not for all. Maybe not for most. But from a policemans perspective... Yeah.The Serena one... I don't see 'racist'.
I found this:
https://firstdogonthemoon.com.au/cartoons/2015/01/14/a-love-letter-to-medicare/
Haha. I still got my Medicare card. Only expired just recently, actually. I do remember paying more for prescriptions -- but I also remembered having a great deal more prescription options available (for newer medications and for branded rather than generic -- if I chose).
I recently read this book which was a critique of the TPPA. One of the articles was about the bulk purchasing power that Australia had for new medications. It sounded like that was something that was a source of great tension... Feeling that Australia wasn't coming to the party quite on development of new medications. Becuase the lawyers (or whoever) had done a bloody great job of getting that bulk purchase agreement for.. I don't remember the term... Some sort of effective for the cost sort of a thing that kept costs down (comprared to US) with quite a few of the newer meds..
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 3:59:30
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by sigismund on September 20, 2018, at 20:38:45
'beyond the environment' lmfao
can't wait for the space program.
hahaha
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 4:23:22
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 3:55:23
https://firstdogonthemoon.com.au/cartoons/2018/09/26/if-you-have-a-go-will-you-get-a-go/
i really like the first dog ones.
My Dad used to get Mad magazines and I'd read them as a kid. Some of it wasn't entirely appropriate (I felt back then) but some of it was really laugh out loud hilarious. This reminds me of a 'go work at MacDonalds' life trajectory one.
Posted by beckett2 on October 5, 2018, at 13:08:17
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 4:23:22
Alex, your PM made a lovely speech at the UN. Such contrast to our current president.
And an official four day week! That's amazing, and I hope it works for your country. I admit to being jealous. My spouse works terrible hours, and he's pretty sure he could do all he does in four days by adding an hour maybe to each of them. Plus, folks would be motivated to get that extra day.
Speaking with a French visitor we met while camping, he was incredulous that we generally get two weeks vacation each year. He had the month off and was cycling across Canada and into our state. We spent an evening around a campfire.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2018, at 18:09:51
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » alexandra_k, posted by beckett2 on October 5, 2018, at 13:08:17
I didn't know about the speech but I looked it up. Thanks for posting about it.
> And an official four day week!
I didn't see reference to that...
> I hope it works for your country.
?
I saw that she is keen on the data tracking of 'vulnerable children'.
I am sceptical / wary about that because we don't have the infrastructure to support the information being kept truly secure in a way that protects the privacy and security of those it purports to protect.
Those with power won't have their abuse recorded as such. It is those lacking power who are likely to have their children labelled as having been abused. Whether it is true that they are or aren't that label is something that is more likely to go on to harm rather than help those children.
One of the Universities requires professional program applicants to sign a disclosure form *on application* (not between offer of place and acceptance of place) which covers a whole range of things. From criminal history to whether they have been documented to have *observed* violence (e.g., in a home setting)...
They say it's 'for their own good' that they be excluded from professional practice programs and other jobs.
For example, there have been really high turnover rates for police in these parts because cadets don't cope with seeing the family violence situations they are routinely called out to. The dynamic is one of a couple in constant turmoil basically and our infrasturture is in such a state that the majority of kids who are living in such appalling conditions would only go on to be abused worse still in any kind of state care (and often split up from siblings).
I'm starting to see how much these kinds of labels affect self-conception, sure, but how much they affect others-conception, too. Only a few years back when I intereacted with some people who were informed I was on the Autism Spectrum before meeting me they were all trying to stare me in the eyes and 'high five'type of over-emphasised and routinised social interaction. I realise now they were probably doing the best they could to be kind. It felt... Infantilising to me. But that probably wasn't the intent.
A lot of people in our society feel insecure and have had histories of being treated pretty badly by others. People seem to want and respond well to a calm figure, yeah.
I did a motorcycle safety course yesterday and I the instructor said 'fake it till ya make it' and I see now that, yeah, I need to get better at doing just that. Take a deep breath and stand tall.
It's easier to fake it till ya make it if you can keep your head down and huddle in with a herd. If you appear stronger... Other people will seek you out to help you process the things they cannot. And that can topple you, yeah. When you are already working at your limits.
I would feel so much happier with the stats if I could trust that they take the personally identifying information out. But I know they don't do this and I know they have people looking through checking and double checking nd in some instances actually recoding (e.g., changing what list someone is or isn't on and so on)... So the whole thing just looks like some arbitrary list of people to be targets for the... Most awful of bullies. To keep them away from our other kids. The ones we're trying our hardest not to ruin...
Sigh.
Trust is hard, yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2018, at 18:18:03
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2018, at 18:09:51
I actually went to a really good talk a while back now on checklists. It was primarily for junior doctors, I think. Where they could basically fill out this checklist form in cases of suspected child abuse.
The idea was that the nurses and other staff and the junior doctor, too, could feel a lot of pressure that they should call the police or someone to report likely abuse.
The form allowed them to basically say they were concerned. To consider whether, on balance, intervention would likely help more than harm.
The idea (it seemed to me) was to absolve the junior doctor of responsibilty for fixing the situation / solving the problem.
It didn't seem to be about putting a label on the kids head to follow them around forever...
It seemed more about how the junior doctor could survive. And the nursing staff etc too (because then you could say that you have reported your concerns to a higher agency). And you had.
I imagine this aspect will hit pretty hard, actually / has the potential to be triggering. There would be something wrong with you if this didn't affect you. I don't know how people who love kids can train pediatrics in some settings... Yeah...
Huddle with the herd...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 8, 2018, at 6:17:47
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2018, at 3:55:23
> I don't know that I find the 'racist' cartoons to be 'racist'.
> It is a very sad reality that that is the situation in the Northern Territory. Not for all. Maybe not for most. But from a policemans perspective... Yeah.
> The Serena one... I don't see 'racist'.I do see how the first could be seen as... Insensitive. And the second as... Unkind. There might be more context (that I don't know) with respect to a racist element to the second. The first is hard. It would ring as true if the Dad was white imho.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 8, 2018, at 6:38:49
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 8, 2018, at 6:17:47
tracking poor children.
sigh.
what do your children do? work in the sweatshops so they have enough to be considered 'working class'?
i know some (stuff knows how many) are born with inheritance so they aren't poor... but most of the rest... i mean, we don't expect them to be working.
oh.
same old, same old, we'll collect up all the data on the kids born to the poor people. becuase they make the very best targets.
i don't know what's to be done.
i suppose whatever it is will take generations.
Posted by beckett2 on October 8, 2018, at 12:11:55
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2018, at 18:09:51
I'm sorry Alex, I mixed that up. Only one NZ company has adopted a four day week. But that might convince other companies.
As far as pediatrics, that's a special calling (to use a clique). And thank goodness some can do it.
My kid's information and history I guard. Less written up in doctor records the better, etc. Last year was difficult for him, and he stoped attending school until we were referred to a truancy board. If he continued his truancy, there was a possibility it would end in court, with a record for him. And us. He's in a better place now. But if I understand you correctly, is that what you mean, keeping your record clean as a way to preserve privacy.
Any positives changes to come from your new PM may take a little time. I loved that in her UN address, she held kindness highly and included the First Nation population.
Is there a high level of domestic/child abuse in NZ?
> I didn't know about the speech but I looked it up. Thanks for posting about it.
>
> > And an official four day week!
>
> I didn't see reference to that...
>
> > I hope it works for your country.
>
> ?
>
> I saw that she is keen on the data tracking of 'vulnerable children'.
>
> I am sceptical / wary about that because we don't have the infrastructure to support the information being kept truly secure in a way that protects the privacy and security of those it purports to protect.
>
> Those with power won't have their abuse recorded as such. It is those lacking power who are likely to have their children labelled as having been abused. Whether it is true that they are or aren't that label is something that is more likely to go on to harm rather than help those children.
>
> One of the Universities requires professional program applicants to sign a disclosure form *on application* (not between offer of place and acceptance of place) which covers a whole range of things. From criminal history to whether they have been documented to have *observed* violence (e.g., in a home setting)...
>
> They say it's 'for their own good' that they be excluded from professional practice programs and other jobs.
>
> For example, there have been really high turnover rates for police in these parts because cadets don't cope with seeing the family violence situations they are routinely called out to. The dynamic is one of a couple in constant turmoil basically and our infrasturture is in such a state that the majority of kids who are living in such appalling conditions would only go on to be abused worse still in any kind of state care (and often split up from siblings).
>
> I'm starting to see how much these kinds of labels affect self-conception, sure, but how much they affect others-conception, too. Only a few years back when I intereacted with some people who were informed I was on the Autism Spectrum before meeting me they were all trying to stare me in the eyes and 'high five'type of over-emphasised and routinised social interaction. I realise now they were probably doing the best they could to be kind. It felt... Infantilising to me. But that probably wasn't the intent.
>
> A lot of people in our society feel insecure and have had histories of being treated pretty badly by others. People seem to want and respond well to a calm figure, yeah.
>
> I did a motorcycle safety course yesterday and I the instructor said 'fake it till ya make it' and I see now that, yeah, I need to get better at doing just that. Take a deep breath and stand tall.
>
> It's easier to fake it till ya make it if you can keep your head down and huddle in with a herd. If you appear stronger... Other people will seek you out to help you process the things they cannot. And that can topple you, yeah. When you are already working at your limits.
>
> I would feel so much happier with the stats if I could trust that they take the personally identifying information out. But I know they don't do this and I know they have people looking through checking and double checking nd in some instances actually recoding (e.g., changing what list someone is or isn't on and so on)... So the whole thing just looks like some arbitrary list of people to be targets for the... Most awful of bullies. To keep them away from our other kids. The ones we're trying our hardest not to ruin...
>
> Sigh.
>
> Trust is hard, yeah.
>
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 17:27:21
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » alexandra_k, posted by beckett2 on October 8, 2018, at 12:11:55
> I'm sorry Alex, I mixed that up. Only one NZ company has adopted a four day week. But that might convince other companies.
Ok. I don't know about that. Depends on the nature of the job and the nature of the people. Some people prefer to work independently (and can't actually get a lot done with other people hanging over their shoulders). Other people prefer to work someplace public (and can't actually get a lot done without feeling like other people are hanging over their shoulders).
I think it is a shame we aren't better at letting people work however is best for them.
I suspect it is beause the independent workers are the ones the group workers most want to work with so conflict of interest.
> is that what you mean, keeping your record clean as a way to preserve privacy.
The example you describe wasn't how I was thinking of it, but now that you have raised it, that is part of it, yes. In the US juvenile records are expunged (I think that is word) to allow that kids can have brief periods where they are having trouble adjusting to something - but this is normal and they bounce back if we will let them.
Maybe it is tied in more to the idea of not discrimating against them / making negative and harmful assumptions about them further down the track.
I didn't realise that we have a bunch of jobs (medicine, paramedics etc) where on application people are asked to fill out disclosure forms stating they have not been abused, witnessed abuse, etc. If you say that you have (or the police check results in the police saying that you have) then your application is culled. If you say that you haven't...
Well, then, you keep your mouth shut about it, don't you. If you say anything to the effect that you have been then you can have your lisence to practice revoked and so on.
I wonder if that is what they intentionally do to try and bond people to stay here. Refuse to register them down the track on the grounds that... That wouldn't surprise me. People have been doing some very nasty things high up in our institutions. Treating people as subhuman. I think I might be starting to see some positive changes... But it's too soon to tell...
I can sort of see how the idea was that people without a history of these things have very high burnout rates. So they genuinely think they are doing people a favor by excluding some for their own good.I can also sort of see how they don't want / can't have sort of... Mass hysteria... Group discussions about people's experience of abuse during paramedicine training or medicine training or... We don't know what to do about it so just keep your mouth shut and pretend it never happened. I guess having a history is okay so long as you repress it, deny it, never talk about it. Though... I am concerned they state they retain the right (or whatever) to not register you down the track if they discover you do have history that you didn't disclose. They are trying to retain the right to... Violate people's rights. To discriminate against them on the grounds they have witnessed abuse. I mean... I thought we were making progress on human rights. Things in this country are so backwards... So backwards...
Every now and then they have these 'speak up' sorts of campaigns. But I guess they are just tests. They see how many people do in fact 'speak up' at which point they get to put them on a list somewhere of 'things this person is no longer allowed to do in our society'. I mean, eventually you have a 0 days working week. You are removed from the workforce. Whether you are enrolled in some useless training program, or put on disability. I wonder what percentage of our population actually is employed with a living wage. I bet it is less than 1/4. I wonder on average how many other people 1 living wage is meant to support, in this country.
> Any positives changes to come from your new PM may take a little time. I loved that in her UN address, she held kindness highly and included the First Nation population.
I'm not sure how I feel about her. I will need to wait and see whether positive changes do, in fact, come about, or whether she's just an avatar concocted in some foreign laboratory to momentarily placate us for another few years while things continue on their tragectory of worse and worse and worse and worse (and worse). Her whole image is significantly improved on the last guy -- but It's clearly an image. It's clearly (to me) very carefully crafted.
I don't know who these people are who they are digging up, recently. For a variety of things. I don't know that they were at the NZ Universities when they said they were. I don't know that they are actually New Zealanders, at all, (yes this country really is that small)... I do know they have spent a significant amount of time overseas and it is looking more like they have been... Drafted... Back here to do things for a while.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. Something like that is probably what is needed.
But that makes here only an exit strategy for me, for example. Things are too awful, here. It will take generations.
> Is there a high level of domestic/child abuse in NZ?
Yes. It really is endemic, here. Mostly it's not considered abuse it's 'playing' or 'teasing' or whatever, too. Rates of suicide (particularly teen) are higher than rates of road injury (which is strange because killing yourself by way of motor vehicle is a fairly obvious suicide solution, I would have thought). I'm not the only person to wonder incessantly why I'd even been born. People have a tendancy to treat each other really very badly indeed, in this country.
University residential halls (maybe not the elite one/s) but generally university residential halls feel like refugee camps. All the abused children. Only, we don't consider them children. We consider our kids to be adults at 16 so violence at / after then would not be considered 'child' abuse. Teen drinking is also endemic. The kids are self-soothing... With alcohol and sex... Sexual relationships between High School students and their teachers is also pretty common and we don't consider it abuse since 16 is the age of consent. Alcohol is legal at 18 but 16 year olds don't have trouble obtaining it from their 18 year old friends. The police don't police marajuana for personal use (if you have less than an ounce or two for distribution / dealing they will fairly much always turn a blind eye). The lawyers don't convict for any of these things because (recent rulings) these things are culturally / socially normal in this country (I think one or two were overturned on appeal - where the judge came out and said it was the victims fault). Women are also abusers in these parts. We do have strong women, and there are many cases of women abusing male husbands or partners or their own children.
What do you do about all that?
I was better off on my own / looking after myself at 16. It's not a psychopath thing, it's reality. I was less likely to be abused by others if I kept my distance away from them. But I did incessantly call for help from the mental health system. And what I wanted was a relationship. A Mother, primarily. I suppose. Its not something you can get from friends. Not without ruining the friendship.
Anyway...
The pediatrics thing... I just mean that in these parts you see abused kid after abused kid after abused kid. I mean succession of broken bones and shaken children. Children who have been fed alcohol to get them to shut up. Neglected children. If you love children it must be really hard to patch them up and send them right back into the household that is only going to do that again. Add to that that the kid might have 1 caregiver (who is powerless to do anything) who is... Pleading for help. Only... There is no help. There might be a women's refuge, but often the Mother is the primary abuser. There really isn't any help. What are you going to do? Call he police? They can add it to some list... Take the kid away from the family? Where are you going to put the kid? Best case in some institution with all the other... Harry Harlow kind of kids. So the head psychiatrist can do 'love experiments' on them and observe the effects of child abuse...
Patch them up and send them on. If you loved kids... Wouldn't that break your heart?
I think if you loved kids... You would rather work with kids who had parents who loved their kids. Misfortune strikes. Rather than Mother strikes. Predictably.
I guess there is something wrong with most of the people who choose to stay here.
I think people are starting to work on the intrastructure so that good people can stay and work here. That's needed. But it's slow...
I will look into things... I guess I'm starting to realise just how little I will learn here / how much what it is that I will learn from here will have no application (only harmful application) in the developed world. I mean... What they will teach us about obtaining consent... Will more likely harm me than help me learn how to obtain consent... These sorts of things... I feel like if you could see someone good do these things then you could imitate that and it wouldn't be a big deal. I don't know that we have exposure so such role models in these parts, though. So people don't know how to go about it... So the kids (the medical students) straggle themselves up as best they can... But mostly consent is not obtained.
There have been very bad abuses in our recent past. For example, some guy taught his medical students how to do vaginal examinations on non-consenting women who were anesthetised for unrelated surgeries. Probably because he / they didn't know how to obtain consent and things seemed... Easier... This way. Cervical smears were also taken from newborns by one guy... Becuase he thought there would be abnormal cells present from birth (they were observing the natural course of cervical abnormalities because they thought the abnormalities would right themself without surgical intervention / becuase it was cheaper that way for the DHB). and then all the stuff on 'this particular clinic' or 'this particular region' (typically Maaori or Pacific Islander) doesn't get generic antibiotics because we are worried about breeding superbugs and they don't take their antibiotics anyway (so simple infections become rheumatic fever become faulty heart valves become faulty hearts). While simultaneously having extremely high levels of prophylactic antibiotics in our chicken farming industry (particularly).
There are bound to be countless more... Today...
Sigh.
I think I need to become a Medical Student.... And then it will be about limiting my exposure to the... Uncivilised... As much as possible. Becuase it would be nice to be in the position to help. And that's limited. I think it would be nice to do what I saw my p-doc do in Aussie... Work a bit in public and work a bit in private. I think the idea of mixed clinics and mixed demographics is important. I think NZ is heading towards.... Heading towards... Discovery that segregation is not good for Maaori rights. The issue is that currently Maaori want segregation because they believe (some small minority group of them) that Maaori will take better care of Maaori than non-Maaori would. Given that they want that... You kind of do have to let them...
(Let individuals choose).
I'm concerned about the segregation aspect... Maaori clinics are an obvious 'target' to be 'control group' or 'observational study' group or 'it's cheaper for the DHB to sit back and do nothing and observe the natural course of whatever ails you'. Insofar as Maaori think they are being treated (that they will be informed if they would be better of getting lab tests, or informed of their test results e.g., for cancer screenings).... These things need to happen. Or if they don't want to know then they should be able to choose which clinic they go to (the observation clinic or the treatment clinic). Rather than being told they should go to the Maaori clinic because the non-Maaori clinic is racist.
Anyway...
Let them take several generations to discover that segregation isn't working for them. Or... Maybe they will make segregation work out for them. Maybe they will.
We gotta let them develop how they want.
I... Can only watch so much of what feels like a train wreck of a situation, though.
I... I wouldn't want to rule out pediatrics. But there is only so much abused / neglected kid I could deal with. I certainly wouldn't consider it here. I wouldn't consider psychiatary either. Cancer surgery. Yeah. It'll be generations before we get medications etc to prevent the need for surgery. We're still sending the tissue biopsy samples... Somewhere... Somewhere... Somewhere... I feel strongly about informed consent. That's why we owe these medications more widely... Contributing biopsy samples is contributing to the process of discovery. Our people are worth more than that...
I'm glad she said 'some of our people could spot a bad trade offer'. We are not decent people. Most of our people could not spot a bad trade offer. Our previous government really wanted to take that bad trade offer. We don't have natural resources. But, that doesn't change the fact that our people are not decent, mostly. We are a culture of bullies. I'm glad I came back here because I have seen it's not restricted to Maaori. They learned much of their awful from the white people. White people are just as bad. That's good. I thought I was becoming racist before. I'm not racist. You get nasty people off all races.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 17:51:23
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » beckett2, posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 17:27:21
I mean, the whole consent thing is going to be f*ck*d up, right from the get-go.
And the ethics teaching... Is most probably going to be someone trying to get everyone to collude on saying that what he (likely but maybe not) did was morally acceptable. Some sort of bullied collusion so that if people are hauled in to testify then the whole profession will collude...
Why would I think that Medicine doesn't have a psychopathy bottle-neck check-point like most every other degree in this country?
I think it is because (I need to look into it) my understanding is that once you are a Medical Student there is a variety of stuff you can apply for that you can only do because you are a Medical Student. Exchanges and the like...
I think it starts with the teddy-bear hospital. So you have parents (Mothers primarily) parading their kids in for the teddy-bear hospital. Because... They like the attention. I'm sure there is no shortage of Mothers who like to see their kids abused vicariously (and no shortage of people who like to see themselves abused)... I'm sure there is no shortage of people willing to give informed consent for all kinds of things (of dubious benefit and even things of likely only harm).
What is odd / strange to me is that *given that* people still prefer not to ask for consent.
I seriously went to an ethics talk in the not so very distant future that was advocating that we experiment on old people who had lost their rational faculty and *not even allow / acknowledge advance directive that they DID NOT WISH TO BE EXPERIMENTED ON UNDER SUCH CONDITIONS*. I mean... Someone gave this talk. Genuinely. With a straight face.
And nobody said: Lady, if there ever was a non-controversial case of ethically f*ck*d up: It's precisely what you are suggesting.
Nobody said that.
That's how bad things have got.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 18:00:08
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 17:51:23
I read this thing on organ transplant... On organ / tissue donation. And there was this thing about surgeons preferring to take donar samples from non-consenting / unaware sources rather than taking donar samples from the many people who were lining up to be donars.
It was about the meanings we attach to body parts... To do with people's psychological acceptance (or rejection) of the grafted organ. To do with the meanings people give to it such that they really want to be organ donors. Some sense of... Matyrdom. Sometimes. A sense of continuity, of doing some good down the track...
Then about this idea of... Steralising things. For wont of a better term. Anonymising things. Banking things. Commodifying the tissue / organ.
This tension between keeping the person as part... Or removing the person from the part. The tension between the donor and the recipient.
And concerns of fairness of distribution and so on.
It was really interesting.
If I were to receive a donated organ / part I would not want to know about the donor. Becuase then the donor would be part of me. That would be... Extremely intimate. Really very. I don't know that I would want just any old person to be that. To feel beholden to just any person... I don't know... I would be concerned they would have hopes and dreams and they would want / expect me to go on to realise those things and I would feel beholden to them and I don't think I would want any of that.
I like the idea of anonymysing.
But other people don't. They don't. They want to donate under these conditions.
I suppose it's similar to adoption. Open or closed? Only there you are dealing with what will ultimately be a life of it's own.
Anyway...
It was interesting. To think about how / why it is so very much easier to bypass consent. But I do feel strongly about getting that right. Matching. Yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 18:06:28
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 18:00:08
But I would want to know that the process for donation and the selection of recipients was a fair process.
I mean, I'm not saying that I don't care how organs are obtained. I mean, I am saying that I would prefer to source my organ from an anonymised bank where the donors felt similarly to how I do.
Maybe people who feel like me are less likely to donate? I don't know about that. Would I donate on the knowledge that the recipient would never know I was the donor? Yes, I would. Because I wouldn't want the recipient to feel beholden to me, at all. I would want them to feel free to go on to continue their own life... I would want them to... Hey, I gues feel free to reject the offering if they find it doesn't suit them. It wouldn't be personal, you see.
Yeah.
If only we could doner match like this, too.
Informed consent.
But it does rely on a certain amount of cognitive capacity. Yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 20:57:36
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 18:06:28
I am kind of afraid about my thesis. I don't trust the Universities in this country, anymore. The University keeps on about how I can take up to 5 years to do a 1 year qualification. Becuase it takes me out of the workforce, I see. Because it means they don't need to worry about a job for me. Beause instead of worrying about me having money to live off, they can have me borrow (not even enough to lvie off) from the government year after year after year after year after year...
Because the University is more interested in keeping graduate students to do grading where they are expected to grade, like, one essay in 20 minutes or something like that. So, either you don't take the (unpaid time) to read them / think about them / comment on them properly, or you get used to fairly much throwing them to the wind...
I didn't think it was a big deal that my supervisor didn't see fit to penalise undergraduates for submitting work late... But I see that it has become a big deal for me, since I needed to work to a tight deadline.
Compounded with the University saying I had 5 years over and over and over and over... Inviting me to half a day training to do a timeline... Inviting me to these writing things where you are taught to write in 20 minute bursts (in other words, just when you are getting started it's time to stop)...
I did my timeline... But it was a 'worst case' from my perspective. I suppose I have been... Bullrushing things, rather. Not really giving my supervisor time to comment and so on. Because I don't trust them. How many students have they got through graduate level qualifications in a timely fashion? Are there any? I don't trust them. There would be something wrong with me if I did trust them given the messages they've been giving me.
They withdrew my application to enrol so they could make a change to it (alter my ID number since I'd been allocated one years and years ago) and then they resubmitted it late. THen they didn't process it because it was considered submitted late.
I protested.
THen they took more than the standard 6 weeks to process the application to enrol. WHen I said on my application I had reason to get through / finish quickly and they actually had the discretion to approve things significantly more quickly. In the face of that they went out of their way to delay the processing.
So I couldn't start until May. When I made it clear I wanted to start in March. They delayed for 2 months (8 weeks).
Then they kept telling me I could do it.. I couldn't do it. It wouldn't be fair to other students. Then they kept telling me what I did was crap and wasn't good enough (and they hadn't read it).
So when my supervisor says 'I've read it and it isn't good enough' it doesn't mean anything.
And then she says she will fail it. Only she's 1 of 3 judges... And the Dean decides not her.
There's a basic...
Failure.
I don't know if they will pass me or what.
I think they think their job is to make me sweat. But I don't see why.
Why can't we get on with our jobs for the greater good?
?
I have no f*ck*ng idea.
Anyway... I found a couple of my timelines and I see why my supervisor was freaking out that I was getting things in under time when she always was planning on the latest time (and then some) whereas I was always the other way around.
Wouldn't it be easier if people just did what they said they would do? I just... I don't trust because I keep getting the messages that they are trying to trick me and they have no intention of letting me get this done if there is any possible way for them to prevent my doing that...
I wonder if our little speech about child abuse will deter foreign students coming here to study at tertiary levels.
The sad thing is: I don't expect so.
That's why the people in charge don't feel badly about abusing their kids. I guess.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 21:05:06
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post, posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 20:57:36
I just don't understand why we don't work to becoming better.
I don't understand why we don't train our students to get their work in on time.
I don't understand why we don't provide comments of particular things that would have resulted in their getting a better grade.
I don't understand why we don't blind grade.
I don't understand why we don't try and give the best grades to the students who would likely go on to do the best work in graduate school.
I don't understand why we don't try and get our graduate students through in a timely fashion.
I don't understand why it isn't considered good for the field to have MORE people producing HIGH quality work.
I don't understand why people take it upon themselves to try and scare away anyone who has potential. I don't understand why people reward sychophants and people who are actually hopless when it comes to the quality of their work. I don't understand why we think it is a good thing when we bully capable people into stopping producing. I don't understand why we think it is great to bully people out of things generally. I don't understand why you would want to keep people at junior levels for always instead of structures whereby there is a throughflow of people.
Everything is clogged up by people who...
Ugh.
Posted by beckett2 on October 9, 2018, at 21:07:08
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » beckett2, posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 17:27:21
> > is that what you mean, keeping your record clean as a way to preserve privacy.Yes, and also keeping details fro private insurance. If one was abused as a child, statistics funnel your information into certain categories: more likely to be ill than others. Or genetics: predisposed to cancer. Then you could be denied or charged more.
If a doctor has 15-20 minutes to spend with me, he or she does not need to know everything. I don't tell my gynecologist about my depression. No one hears about bipolar except my psychiatrist. You're right about the bloody medical history forms.
Also, now that there are computers, some things never disappear. That doesn't always seem right.My kid wants to get one of those genetic tests that reveal your ancestry, but I told him it would be under my name. Because all that info is saved and is already used w/o consent by law enforcement. What if he has a predisposition for some aliment? Idk. His generation is far more imperiled than mine.
> University residential halls (maybe not the elite one/s) but generally university residential halls feel like refugee camps. All the abused children. Only, we don't consider them children. We consider our kids to be adults at 16 so violence at / after then would not be considered 'child' abuse. Teen drinking is also endemic. The kids are self-soothing... With alcohol and sex... Sexual relationships between High School students and their teachers is also pretty common and we don't consider it abuse since 16 is the age of consent. Alcohol is legal at 18 but 16 year olds don't have trouble obtaining it from their 18 year old friends. The police don't police marajuana for personal use (if you have less than an ounce or two for distribution / dealing they will fairly much always turn a blind eye). The lawyers don't convict for any of these things because (recent rulings) these things are culturally / socially normal in this country (I think one or two were overturned on appeal - where the judge came out and said it was the victims fault). Women are also abusers in these parts. We do have strong women, and there are many cases of women abusing male husbands or partners or their own children.16 is very young. Here it's 18, except, I think, some states. Some states actually still have child marriage allowed. That's crazy. If a 12 yo girl is raped by an older man, they can get married to avoid rape charges. Maybe that's Florida? I could be maligning Florida.
Frankly, my heart would break just working with animals. I don't think I'd be able to sleep if I dealt with abused children. I say god bless those that are able to and do.>
> What do you do about all that?
>
> I was better off on my own / looking after myself at 16. It's not a psychopath thing, it's reality. I was less likely to be abused by others if I kept my distance away from them. But I did incessantly call for help from the mental health system. And what I wanted was a relationship. A Mother, primarily. I suppose. Its not something you can get from friends. Not without ruining the friendship.
>
> Anyway...
>
> The pediatrics thing... I just mean that in these parts you see abused kid after abused kid after abused kid. I mean succession of broken bones and shaken children. Children who have been fed alcohol to get them to shut up. Neglected children. If you love children it must be really hard to patch them up and send them right back into the household that is only going to do that again. Add to that that the kid might have 1 caregiver (who is powerless to do anything) who is... Pleading for help. Only... There is no help. There might be a women's refuge, but often the Mother is the primary abuser. There really isn't any help. What are you going to do? Call he police? They can add it to some list... Take the kid away from the family? Where are you going to put the kid? Best case in some institution with all the other... Harry Harlow kind of kids. So the head psychiatrist can do 'love experiments' on them and observe the effects of child abuse...
>
> Patch them up and send them on. If you loved kids... Wouldn't that break your heart?
>
> I think if you loved kids... You would rather work with kids who had parents who loved their kids. Misfortune strikes. Rather than Mother strikes. Predictably.
>
> I guess there is something wrong with most of the people who choose to stay here.
>
> I think people are starting to work on the intrastructure so that good people can stay and work here. That's needed. But it's slow...
>
> I will look into things... I guess I'm starting to realise just how little I will learn here / how much what it is that I will learn from here will have no application (only harmful application) in the developed world. I mean... What they will teach us about obtaining consent... Will more likely harm me than help me learn how to obtain consent... These sorts of things... I feel like if you could see someone good do these things then you could imitate that and it wouldn't be a big deal. I don't know that we have exposure so such role models in these parts, though. So people don't know how to go about it... So the kids (the medical students) straggle themselves up as best they can... But mostly consent is not obtained.
>
> There have been very bad abuses in our recent past. For example, some guy taught his medical students how to do vaginal examinations on non-consenting women who were anesthetised for unrelated surgeries. Probably because he / they didn't know how to obtain consent and things seemed... Easier... This way. Cervical smears were also taken from newborns by one guy... Becuase he thought there would be abnormal cells present from birth (they were observing the natural course of cervical abnormalities because they thought the abnormalities would right themself without surgical intervention / becuase it was cheaper that way for the DHB). and then all the stuff on 'this particular clinic' or 'this particular region' (typically Maaori or Pacific Islander) doesn't get generic antibiotics because we are worried about breeding superbugs and they don't take their antibiotics anyway (so simple infections become rheumatic fever become faulty heart valves become faulty hearts). While simultaneously having extremely high levels of prophylactic antibiotics in our chicken farming industry (particularly).
>
> There are bound to be countless more... Today...
>
> Sigh.
>
> I think I need to become a Medical Student.... And then it will be about limiting my exposure to the... Uncivilised... As much as possible. Becuase it would be nice to be in the position to help. And that's limited. I think it would be nice to do what I saw my p-doc do in Aussie... Work a bit in public and work a bit in private. I think the idea of mixed clinics and mixed demographics is important. I think NZ is heading towards.... Heading towards... Discovery that segregation is not good for Maaori rights. The issue is that currently Maaori want segregation because they believe (some small minority group of them) that Maaori will take better care of Maaori than non-Maaori would. Given that they want that... You kind of do have to let them...
>
> (Let individuals choose).
>
> I'm concerned about the segregation aspect... Maaori clinics are an obvious 'target' to be 'control group' or 'observational study' group or 'it's cheaper for the DHB to sit back and do nothing and observe the natural course of whatever ails you'. Insofar as Maaori think they are being treated (that they will be informed if they would be better of getting lab tests, or informed of their test results e.g., for cancer screenings).... These things need to happen. Or if they don't want to know then they should be able to choose which clinic they go to (the observation clinic or the treatment clinic). Rather than being told they should go to the Maaori clinic because the non-Maaori clinic is racist.
>
> Anyway...
>
> Let them take several generations to discover that segregation isn't working for them. Or... Maybe they will make segregation work out for them. Maybe they will.
>
> We gotta let them develop how they want.
>
> I... Can only watch so much of what feels like a train wreck of a situation, though.
>
> I... I wouldn't want to rule out pediatrics. But there is only so much abused / neglected kid I could deal with. I certainly wouldn't consider it here. I wouldn't consider psychiatary either. Cancer surgery. Yeah. It'll be generations before we get medications etc to prevent the need for surgery. We're still sending the tissue biopsy samples... Somewhere... Somewhere... Somewhere... I feel strongly about informed consent. That's why we owe these medications more widely... Contributing biopsy samples is contributing to the process of discovery. Our people are worth more than that...
>
> I'm glad she said 'some of our people could spot a bad trade offer'. We are not decent people. Most of our people could not spot a bad trade offer. Our previous government really wanted to take that bad trade offer. We don't have natural resources. But, that doesn't change the fact that our people are not decent, mostly. We are a culture of bullies. I'm glad I came back here because I have seen it's not restricted to Maaori. They learned much of their awful from the white people. White people are just as bad. That's good. I thought I was becoming racist before. I'm not racist. You get nasty people off all races.
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by alexandra_k on October 9, 2018, at 21:50:18
In reply to Re: Today's Dominion Post » alexandra_k, posted by beckett2 on October 9, 2018, at 21:07:08
> Yes, and also keeping details fro private insurance. If one was abused as a child, statistics funnel your information into certain categories: more likely to be ill than others. Or genetics: predisposed to cancer. Then you could be denied or charged more.
I see. I learned just yesterday that we don't have laws that other countries do when it comes to insurance companies. There are certain things that you have to disclose if you know about them because the company will use them on the risk assessment. If you don't know, then you don't have to disclose, however.
Except in New Zealand apparently the insurance companies are (for example) not covering pre-existing conditions whether they were known or not. Ignorance is no excuse, in other words. If I (as a purchaser of insurance) do not disclose something that my insurance company later deems to be relevant then they retain the right to void the insurance.
That's what the Med school tries to do here, too. Any condition not disclosed that is later deemed (by some unspecified party) to be relevant may lead to your exclusion...
In other words... A degree or an insurance premium is what, exactly? A charitable donation? Not an investment. Not a low risk investment. An investment likely to profit only the short term interests of the people in charge of the university / health insurance company.
Everyone in this country seems to be out to take as much as they can as quickly as they can...
It's like the whole country is gonna be bombed in the very near future or something...
> If a doctor has 15-20 minutes to spend with me, he or she does not need to know everything. I don't tell my gynecologist about my depression. No one hears about bipolar except my psychiatrist. You're right about the bloody medical history forms.
It's hard to know when that cross-over of information is likely to harm or to help. Sometimes conditions can be inter-connected in ways that are non-obvious. Othertimes it isn't relevant. You need to know a lot to know what is and isn't important and whether things are likely to be connected or independent.
Here... There is a move to online records keeping. It frightens me. There is an online health record for every person. The temptation for different people to be able to access different parts of that information. I mean... Vaccine batch. Then every single presenting symptom forever after. Every single medication given (and batch) and dosage and every single presenting symptom forever after. Every single biopsy sample.
The potential for experimentation in ways that disproporionately burden particular demographics... And the potential to relegate people to 'no treatment / control / only observe' groups and to... Prevent... Their condition being treated.
These are not good things for our country.
I won't go to a GP anymore. I have loss of faith in our medical system. I won't have an operation here. Not after the whole vaginal examination thing. That's how bad things actually are, here.
If things are different... Let's see it.
> Also, now that there are computers, some things never disappear. That doesn't always seem right.Information... Knowledge is power.
The concern is that the only people who have access to the knowledge use it to solidify their own power at others expense. That's the concern.
> My kid wants to get one of those genetic tests that reveal your ancestry, but I told him it would be under my name. Because all that info is saved and is already used w/o consent by law enforcement. What if he has a predisposition for some aliment? Idk. His generation is far more imperiled than mine.
I went to a talk recently that was fairly interesting that was about genetic diversity in different (normal) cells within the same person. People are mosaic. I would like to learn more about that. About the genotypic diversity within a person. About (given that) whether we can actually tell whether a particular cell is from the same person or from a differnet person... In some respects we know an awful lot less about genetics than we think we do. I don't know. I expect military would know more than anyone... High throughput sequencing and so on... But there is the concern that stupid people will misinterpret / misuse a limited amout of inofrmation (I don't mean your son, I mean people who have power over your son) for sure.
I don't know how to feel about the people who do psychiatry etc long term, here. I say it again: The psychiatrists who I got on with / wanted to work long term with were here only for a short time. The ones who stayed... I did not work well with them. Same could be said for psychology. Sometimes they were... Kinder. But... Uh... Not particularly bright. I don't know... I suspect many people lose their humanity when it comes to the demographic because that is the only way they can cope. Keep your head down and work hard to get out... Want to work with people... Decent people... Not helping the bullies give their herd their shots so they can better withstand the battery farm living conditions... Or the free range marae...
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