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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 15:46:43
Hi Everyone,
I developp a fear about meds, after severals trials of meds who was disastrous. One of those meds was the Parnate, who almost kill me because of hypertensives crisis without any food restricted reason.Since that bad experience, i'm sensitive to meds, so sensitive than I can't start using them, and if I succeed to start one, I have all the side-effects, even the rare ones and feel worse than before starting the med...so I usually stop them after one or two doses in a complete fear state.
Recently, i'm more and more prone to meds phobia... I can't even take a single tylenol pill or an Advil to treat my head pain or migraine.
The same apply to the Rivotril, since a while, when I take 1 mg of it, I feel worse after... and if I don't take it, I have withdraw symptoms who start and increase my anxiety... so I feel stuck in a hole...
I have a panic disorder with agoraphobia, general anxiety, social phobia and others little phobias like driving my car ( who trigger panic), heart disease phobia (always take my pulse rate and blood pressure). All of those disorders make me prone to a list of constant side-effects that I live every day of my life.
I don't work for now and don't have to go out of the house at daytime, so normally I feel better at daytime. Things get worse when it's time to get out of the house, especially when I have to go to a public place and drive my car to go there... Driving is now really hard for me... With all the symptoms I have, i'm a lot distracted and fewer reflexs.
My list of constant symptoms are mostly related to a higher level of adrenaline and beta blocker don't work on me, anyway those symptoms are : strong head pain, in the left side of the head near the temple, migraine, eyes pain, numbless of the chest + legs + arms + face + teeth + jaw pain, chest pain + back pain, dizziness, faint or syncope (only last 10 -15 seconds) and not often, sensitivity to the lights and loud sounds, tickling at the extremities and the chest (trigger panic attacks, especially when I drive or when i'm socially exposed), tunel vision, visuals hallucinations, dilated eyes pupils, fast or slow pulse rate, sweating from hands and feets, depersonalization + derealization, constant fatigue as well as heart burns and intestine pain.
Those symptoms seem to get worse each week or each time I experience them. They seem to happen in a downward spiral cycle. I mean that if I experience more dizziness and depersonalization during a specific day, those symptoms will last for 1 week constantly and more severely. If it's the head pain, I will focus on the head pain for 1 week and feel really bad. I will continue to have the others symptoms at the same times and then I will experience more chest pain or tickling effects and I will focus on those symptoms for another week... Each time a new or old symptoms appear, they are worse than before and I focus on them more and more.
I'm like that since last november... So I feel terrible bad since more than 4 months now... I'm so tired... and I stay home more and more often and drive less often also... My main problem, who was only social phobia to begin, is now turning to a nightmare and I feel that I loose all the control over my life... and I fear to not return to a normal state now...
I meet my PDoc this week, PDoc don't seem to care about me and the med phobia...calling me med sensitive...and talk about adrenaline and gaba receptors who are saturated and the fact that I need to take a SSRI, even if I have a fear about med and side-effects... And they don't take impatient to start med... just if you have suicidal tendencies or being dangerous for the others...and it's not my case...
He put me on Remeron, to help to cope with the insmonia and gastric problems, and baby dose of liquid prozac (4 mg by 1 ml).
Last Monday night, I started the Remeron, 15mg at bedtime and I was feeling quite sedated yesterday but I was ok, until I get out of the house and had to drive the car. I start having panic attack and a strong head pain while I was driving the car and all the night I was thinking that I will do a stroke, but it's impossible since I had a MRI test done 1 month ago and they see nothing wrong inside my head. So last night I didn't take my Remeron...
I know that my fears are irrationnal, and I know that most of the side-effects are not real, and I do severals therapies and know some tricks to help to prevent panic or decrease them, but it's not working on me anymore...
I plan to re-start again the Remeron tonight, but only at 7,5mg, for one week and .see later if I increase it or wait another week.
For the liquid prozac, I plan to wait until I will be used to the Remeron. Maybe with the Remeron alone, I will feel better and my anxiety will decrease when I will reach the good dosage for me?
Is it normal to developp a medication phobia and to became meds sensitive, especially after severals trials of meds who fail ?
Someone have any good advise to give to me? Any tricks to make it more easy for me to take my meds and stop having imaginatives side-effects???
I always start the antidepressants meds at normal dose, sometimes high dose, without any increase of anxiety at first. It was usual for me to start the Paxil at 20mg or 30 mg, the Lexapro at 10 or 20mg, the Zoloft at 50mg, the Prozac at 10mg, the Remeron at 30mg, the Nardil at 45mg, the Parnate at 40mg... Same for the effexor-xo that I start often at 75mg and go up to more than 350 mg day...
I'm the only one here to have medication phobia???
If not, I need some help please!
Thanks everyone!
Posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2010, at 16:47:07
In reply to Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 15:46:43
Vincent as you know me also but maybe you need to up to seroquel? Almost sounds like your're psychotic about the meds? Just a thought. Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 16:54:04
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia) » Vincent_QC, posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2010, at 16:47:07
> Vincent as you know me also but maybe you need to up to seroquel? Almost sounds like your're psychotic about the meds? Just a thought. Phillipa
Hummm... I can't mix the Seroquel and the Remeron.
Psychotic about meds? Not sure... I fear them and the increase anxiety that they all cause on me now.
What I find strange is that I try the Remeron again in last december and didn't had increase anxiety at the time, I was just more sedated at daytime... And the first time I was on the Remeron, I go up to 60 mg in less than one month without any side-effects, except weight gain and sedation, but sedation decrease fast...
Why i'm now sensitive to a med like the Remeron, the only one AD that I always found to be innoffensive???
That's a mystery.
Something is sure, I will have to test the Remeron alone, will go slwoly, 7,5mg...wait and see what happen. Maybe with time, I will be less sensitive to meds and my fear about meds will decrease?
At this point of my life, my anxiety level is already at the higher level possible, so more anxiety will not change anything... will maybe just have to stay home for a couple of weeks and forget about driving the car and doing social exposure...
Posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2010, at 17:00:16
In reply to Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 15:46:43
I'm really sorry for the aweful things you are experiencing. I have been following the med sensitive bizarreness issue for some time. I could share some thoughts.
Some of the most med sensitive people are so because of a reason. My LLMD (Lyme Literate MD) says most of his patients are that way. That doesn't mean you have Lyme or some other similar (many of them) infections. Or maybe it does. Who knows. But it does mean you are in the same company as them, for whatever reason.
There is a good side and the bad side. You already shared your experience with the bad side. In the same way that small doses can really knock you for a loop, that also means that you may only need very tiny doses for therapeutic effect. My LLMD had multiple patients, for example, doing well on 1mg Lexapro. No healthy person would even feel 1mg. But for the med sensitive, it is probably equivalent to 20mg in terms of potency. That's the good side...you may not need much.
Remeron stimulates norepinephrine release, but not reuptake inhibition. For someone with your symptoms, not cool. 15mg does a fair amount of that. In my experience with doses ranging from 1mg to 15mg, I can feel the NE effect beginning to show up at about 7.5mg. Below that it is almost pure antihistamine.
The orange juice trick with prozac. Dump the contents of a capsule in a glass of OJ. Stir it well, drink a custom size dose. For example, 1/4 of the glass (assuming 10mg capsule) is 2.5mg. Keeps well refrigerated for a week. Stir it good each time. You can now dose it as low as you want...1mg, 1/2mg, whatever.
That said, I don't think either remeron or prozac are very good choices for the presentation of your symptoms.
While it appears noradrenaline has gone awry, and you may well be right it has, it would seem ridiculous to take a med that is strong on supporting noradrenaline, right? Well, not so fast. Due to feedback loops, boosting an overative noradrenaline system will actually slow it down. Excellent med for that, Savella. I'm talking 3mg to 6.25mg once or twice a day, expecting slight increase of symptoms for 3 days followed by calming when the feedback loops catch on to what is happening. Pills can be cut, capsules an be customized at home.
It sounds like your cortisol is way out of whack. A saliva test with 4 samples in a 24 hour period would be needed to see.
It sounds like the gut is messed up. Leaky gut. Candida. Both. Gluten intolerance. Something in that arena. That's probably how the things got into your bloodsystem that shouldn't have gotten there, that triggered the Parnate reaction.
There is a lot more going on here than just the symptoms you feel. I know people hate to hear me say it, but that's the way it is. The most likely culprit in my opinion is an unknown unsuspected infection within. That is another whole topic though. For now, if mere symptoms relief is the primary goal, remeron, benzos, ssris...all bad choices that will actually make it all worse.
My thoughts.
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 18:42:03
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2010, at 17:00:16
> I'm really sorry for the aweful things you are experiencing. I have been following the med sensitive bizarreness issue for some time. I could share some thoughts.
>
> Some of the most med sensitive people are so because of a reason. My LLMD (Lyme Literate MD) says most of his patients are that way. That doesn't mean you have Lyme or some other similar (many of them) infections. Or maybe it does. Who knows. But it does mean you are in the same company as them, for whatever reason.
>Being tested for lymes or any other infections is difficult... PDoc don'T think about those things...
> There is a good side and the bad side. You already shared your experience with the bad side. In the same way that small doses can really knock you for a loop, that also means that you may only need very tiny doses for therapeutic effect. My LLMD had multiple patients, for example, doing well on 1mg Lexapro. No healthy person would even feel 1mg. But for the med sensitive, it is probably equivalent to 20mg in terms of potency. That's the good side...you may not need much.
>Was on 30 mg of LExapro at some point and never had any side-effects , well not increase anxiety... it was just not working for me.
> Remeron stimulates norepinephrine release, but not reuptake inhibition. For someone with your symptoms, not cool. 15mg does a fair amount of that. In my experience with doses ranging from 1mg to 15mg, I can feel the NE effect beginning to show up at about 7.5mg. Below that it is almost pure antihistamine.
>Should I have to call my PDoc and told him that the Remeron is not for me ???
Also, I never had increase anxiety before with the Remeron... Strange that I can't tolerate it now!
> The orange juice trick with prozac. Dump the contents of a capsule in a glass of OJ. Stir it well, drink a custom size dose. For example, 1/4 of the glass (assuming 10mg capsule) is 2.5mg. Keeps well refrigerated for a week. Stir it good each time. You can now dose it as low as you want...1mg, 1/2mg, whatever.
>I have the generic liquid Prozac made by Apo in Canada. I'm from Canada... and it's the only one SSRI avalaible in liquid form.
My plan was to start it at 1mg, mean 1/4 ml of liquid Prozac... since 1 ml = 4 mg.
> That said, I don't think either remeron or prozac are very good choices for the presentation of your symptoms.
>Well, no meds seem to be good for the kind of my symptoms...
I try all of them, on and off-label in the past, I just devellopp a med phobia recently, after the Parnate experience.
I agree that the Zoloft, the Effexor-XR and the Prozac was in the past the ones that always increase my anxiety.
> While it appears noradrenaline has gone awry, and you may well be right it has, it would seem ridiculous to take a med that is strong on supporting noradrenaline, right?"
I agree with you... that's why the PDoc suggest a low dose of SSRI... Serotonin seem to work better for anxiety disorders like panic or phobias, for me only... we are all different.
Last summer, I was able to start slowly the Paxil, I start at 2,5mg and go up to 20mg in 1 1/2 months. It was hard, I remember that I had a lot of side-effects like sweating and weight gain and sedation. I stop it because of the weight gain... now I can say it was a mistake to stop it, since it was working for my problems. I was able to drive my car and go out of the house without any problems or increase anxiety. I was not 100% symptoms free, but I was 10000 better than I am now for sure!!!
"" Well, not so fast. Due to feedback loops, boosting an overative noradrenaline system will actually slow it down. Excellent med for that, Savella. I'm talking 3mg to 6.25mg once or twice a day, expecting slight increase of symptoms for 3 days followed by calming when the feedback loops catch on to what is happening. Pills can be cut, capsules an be customized at home.
>It's not avaible in the Canada! And if it's working on the NE, why it will be better than the Remeron or the Effexor-XR or the Cymbalta or any older TCA's who work hard on the NE?
My PDoc think that stimulate a little bit the NE will decrease the over activity of the adrenaline release in my body...Well that's it's idea with the Remeron... and the Prozac for the SE effect who will block the panic on me...
> It sounds like your cortisol is way out of whack. A saliva test with 4 samples in a 24 hour period would be needed to see.
>I know that some meds exist to block the cortisol... but like I write before, even if I have this test done, what I will do with the results??? Also, it will be hard to get that test from my PDoc... He don't take care of these kind of problems... and always told me that my family Doctor is the one who have to RX those tests on me...
> It sounds like the gut is messed up. Leaky gut. Candida. Both. Gluten intolerance. Something in that arena. That's probably how the things got into your bloodsystem that shouldn't have gotten there, that triggered the Parnate reaction.
>I try severals diets change... I cut the gluten... see no change... I cut the sugar or rafined floor and also try the hypoglycimia diet... no change...
I had a gastric by-pass, not the USA version, my intestine are short, only 1,50 meter long, the other part is cut and not working... that's why I always had no effect from XR or SR meds...
Me and the PDoc are not sure if it's affect also the regular meds. And the Surgeons who do the gastric by-pass didn't do research about the impact of the surgery on the meds absorbtion...
> There is a lot more going on here than just the symptoms you feel. I know people hate to hear me say it, but that's the way it is. The most likely culprit in my opinion is an unknown unsuspected infection within. That is another whole topic though. For now, if mere symptoms relief is the primary goal, remeron, benzos, ssris...all bad choices that will actually make it all worse.
>
> My thoughts.
>
>
Ok, for the Benzos I agree... The next goal will be to wothdrawl the benzo... will tapering the Rivotril with the Valium... it's work in the past and I know I will be able to do it...I will do that after the PDoc and I will find the good med for me and when I will be anxiety free or at least stable.
For the SSRI's, I know that the Paxil work last summer... So I wonder why I can't return on it now. I try to start it again at 2,5mg and it was too much for me... I will have to try it at 1mg... cutting the pill will be hard, since the Paxil can't be mix in orange juice or water... and the liquid version don't exist in the Canada.
So for now I don't know what to do...
Did I try again the remeron at 7,5mg...
Did I take the Seroquel at bedtime, 50 mg, to help me to sleep, insistead of the Remeron? Will avoid the NE effect???
Did I just try to cut my Paxil pill in 1 mg piece ( very difficult, even with a pill cutter, i try it!!! )...
Did I call my family Doctor and ask him to have test for infections???
If I call my Family Doctor, what kind of test I have to ask??? Lymes, Cortisol and ???
Oh and I forget, my anxiety got worse also at the gym, I think it was related to the adrenaline level... The gym start the panic disorder on me... after severals months without being panic free...
Also, the list of symptoms that I wrote in my initial thread are mostly new, except the heart effect and the dilated pupils... They appear after I had a really painfull surgery last november... A surgery for the hemmorroids... Since that surgery, the symptoms appears one by one and I Feel worse each day!!!
I had a low hemoglobin level and no iron in my blood before the surgery. 1 month after the surgery, my hemoglobin level goes from 74 to 143, who is normal now... and my iron level goes from 1 to 8...
Do you think that those things can affect also the anxiety? I mean that my brains was used to have low oxygen because of the anemia and low hemoglobin... so a suddent raise of iron and hemoglobin mean more oxygen in the brain... Maybe my body need some time to adjust???
Maybe what I experience now is linked to that also ???
Posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2010, at 20:11:08
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia) » bleauberry, posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 18:42:03
>
> Being tested for lymes or any other infections is difficult... PDoc don'T think about those things...True. It should be their job to explore all possible causes of your symptoms, but instead they make it their job to merely attempt symptom relief.
>
> Should I have to call my PDoc and told him that the Remeron is not for me ???I think you need to give it a good try as best you can so that both of you can see what happens, good or bad. It doesn't matter what someone on a web forum says. We have to try things and see what happens. I just happen to think it won't work, but that doesn't mean it won't.
>
> Also, I never had increase anxiety before with the Remeron... Strange that I can't tolerate it now!Remeron stimulates adrenaline.
>
> I have the generic liquid Prozac made by Apo in Canada. I'm from Canada... and it's the only one SSRI avalaible in liquid form.Generic, very undependable. The only trustworthy form of Prozac is brand. I can't tell you how many problems are caused by generics. Canada. Well, any country with national health care suffers in the ability to give proper care to everyone...just the opposite of what they claim when they initiate these national programs. They sound good, but never work. As long as you are cared for in Canada, your options will be less than if in USA. That's just the way it is, sadly.
>
> Well, no meds seem to be good for the kind of my symptoms...The right one will be good. It might not be a med. It might be an herb or a vitamin. Whatever it is, you haven't tried it yet.
>
> I try all of them, on and off-label in the past, I just devellopp a med phobia recently, after the Parnate experience.No, you haven't tried all of them. Probably not even 50% of them.
>
> I agree with you... that's why the PDoc suggest a low dose of SSRI... Serotonin seem to work better for anxiety disorders like panic or phobias, for me only... we are all different.That is the reputation of ssris. Hopefully it will work out for you.
> Last summer, I was able to start slowly the Paxil, I start at 2,5mg and go up to 20mg in 1 1/2 months. It was hard, I remember that I had a lot of side-effects like sweating and weight gain and sedation. I stop it because of the weight gain... now I can say it was a mistake to stop it, since it was working for my problems. I was able to drive my car and go out of the house without any problems or increase anxiety. I was not 100% symptoms free, but I was 10000 better than I am now for sure!!!
Well, why not give paxil another try? If you did, you would probably have to do it the same way...very tiny doses very slowly.
>
>
> It's not avaible in the Canada! And if it's working on the NE, why it will be better than the Remeron or the Effexor-XR or the Cymbalta or any older TCA's who work hard on the NE?Savella is not available in Canada. And you probably are not comfortable mailordering from international? It is available worldwide through the mail. Most of us who have ordered it got it by the name Milnacipran, easily found in a google search. Not suggesting it, just saying it is always an option. When someone says "it is not available", well, that just isn't true.
>
> My PDoc think that stimulate a little bit the NE will decrease the over activity of the adrenaline release in my body...Well that's it's idea with the Remeron... and the Prozac for the SE effect who will block the panic on me...I totally disagree. Remeron will stimulate the NE, but with no brakes. It is like stepping on the accelerator pedal with no brakes. If someone wanted to purposedly upset the feedback loop and prevent it from working, Remeron is one of the meds that can do that. So it can make anxiety worse in that case.
>
> I know that some meds exist to block the cortisol... but like I write before, even if I have this test done, what I will do with the results??? Also, it will be hard to get that test from my PDoc... He don't take care of these kind of problems... and always told me that my family Doctor is the one who have to RX those tests on me...It won't happen in Canada, so sorry I mentioned it. This is beyond the science of any country with national health care.
As for something to block the cortisol, I think it is just the opposite. I think your cortisol may be extremely low. The exaggerated NE response is the body's way of trying to compensate for that. You want something to increase cortisol, not decrease it. Siberian Ginseng, Licorice.
>
> I try severals diets change... I cut the gluten... see no change... I cut the sugar or rafined floor and also try the hypoglycimia diet... no change...Excellent. At least you know. Few people even try.
>
> I had a gastric by-pass, not the USA version, my intestine are short, only 1,50 meter long, the other part is cut and not working... that's why I always had no effect from XR or SR meds...
>
> Me and the PDoc are not sure if it's affect also the regular meds. And the Surgeons who do the gastric by-pass didn't do research about the impact of the surgery on the meds absorbtion...This looks like a big clue. Probably a lot more relevant to your whole situation than you are giving it credit for.
> >
> >
> Ok, for the Benzos I agree... The next goal will be to wothdrawl the benzo... will tapering the Rivotril with the Valium... it's work in the past and I know I will be able to do it...
>
> I will do that after the PDoc and I will find the good med for me and when I will be anxiety free or at least stable.
>
> For the SSRI's, I know that the Paxil work last summer... So I wonder why I can't return on it now. I try to start it again at 2,5mg and it was too much for me... I will have to try it at 1mg... cutting the pill will be hard, since the Paxil can't be mix in orange juice or water... and the liquid version don't exist in the Canada.
>
> So for now I don't know what to do...
>
> Did I try again the remeron at 7,5mg...
>
> Did I take the Seroquel at bedtime, 50 mg, to help me to sleep, insistead of the Remeron? Will avoid the NE effect???
>
> Did I just try to cut my Paxil pill in 1 mg piece ( very difficult, even with a pill cutter, i try it!!! )...
>
> Did I call my family Doctor and ask him to have test for infections???
>
> If I call my Family Doctor, what kind of test I have to ask??? Lymes, Cortisol and ???
>
> Oh and I forget, my anxiety got worse also at the gym, I think it was related to the adrenaline level... The gym start the panic disorder on me... after severals months without being panic free...
>
> Also, the list of symptoms that I wrote in my initial thread are mostly new, except the heart effect and the dilated pupils... They appear after I had a really painfull surgery last november... A surgery for the hemmorroids... Since that surgery, the symptoms appears one by one and I Feel worse each day!!!
>
> I had a low hemoglobin level and no iron in my blood before the surgery. 1 month after the surgery, my hemoglobin level goes from 74 to 143, who is normal now... and my iron level goes from 1 to 8...
>
> Do you think that those things can affect also the anxiety? I mean that my brains was used to have low oxygen because of the anemia and low hemoglobin... so a suddent raise of iron and hemoglobin mean more oxygen in the brain... Maybe my body need some time to adjust???
>
> Maybe what I experience now is linked to that also ???
>
>All good questions, and I'm sorry I don't have any good answers. The best we can all do is guess. Doctors get paid a lot of money to do that, so I am disappointed they don't take your suffering more seriously.
Whatever you do, do in tiny doses.
Here's a trick for pills. Crush them into powder with the back side of a spoon. Mix the powder with rice flour to get a bigger pile of powder. With a razor blade divide the pile into equal size piles of whatever size dose you want. They won't be exact, but very close. Then with the pointed end of a knife scoop the custom sized pile into an empty gel cap that you can buy at a healthfood store.
Overall, it does sound like excess NE. SSRIs might well work for you, as Paxil did, but your system is probably extremely sensitive to changes. So the changes will have to be very small steps over extended periods of time. And I still think a NE reuptake inhibitor (like Milnacipran) but not a NE stimulator (like Remeron) will do a good job of slowing NE down via feedback loops, despite a short-term increase before those feedback loops kick in.
I didn't mention the TCAs because with your sensitivities they would probably be problematic in a number of ways.
From a longterm perspective, you should consider getting a Siberian Ginseng supplement (not the other ginsengs), and start with very small doses intending to take it daily for years, and knowing you probably won't see any noticable results for 3 to 6 months. It is very good at rebalancing the entire NE/cortisol network and helping your body to adapt to stress and disease. Its only drawback is it works slow and you have to be patient with it. It can be taken with your meds.
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 4, 2010, at 9:13:02
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2010, at 20:11:08
> I think you need to give it a good try as best you can so that both of you can see what happens, good or bad. It doesn't matter what someone on a web forum says. We have to try things and see what happens. I just happen to think it won't work, but that doesn't mean it won't.
>Well, i'm having a hard time with meds... whatever the kind of problems I have, it's seem that I can't tolerate them anymore. I can't even take an innoffensive Advil to treat my migraine...
So i'm not sure for the Remeron. I don't take it before bedtime last night, I was scare, since I had only one 15mg dose 2 days ago and I can fell the adrenaline rush...
I also read alot last night about SSRI's and cortisol level and adrenal problems as well... it's seem that they discover that SSRI's are not very safe, like the older AD... They also seem to work better the first time you try them and after they leave you in a higher anxiety state...
>
> Remeron stimulates adrenaline.
> >I understand that part. Reputake is not the same mechanism of action than stimulation...
I had severe reactions to the TCA nortriptyline, had to stop it after 2 days on 20mg because I had a fast pulse rate of 150 bpm...
The Clomipramine was also very weak, not hitting harder the NE, but had too many side-effects to describe... I was feeling exhausted on that med and never was able to reach the effective dosage. Had to stop at 50mg...and drop out my therapy because I was not able to wake up in the morning...
The imipramine was also very hard to take for me. I was ok on 25mg... no improve for the panic and anxiety... and when I rise to 50mg, I start having a lot of side-effects, mostly cardiac effects and increase anxiety.
The older TCA's not work as reuptake inhibitors of the NE and to a lesser extend as reuptake inhibitors of the SE, but they also hit hard the a1-adrenergic receptor antagonists and a2-adrenergic receptor antagonists... and it's seem that I react badly to this kind of med. Especially the a1-adrenergic receptor antagonists.
The Remeron in other hands don't have the reuptake effect on the NE, just the a1-adrenergic receptor antagonist but more targeting the a2-adrenergic receptor... That why I was able in the past to handle it to high dose.
But something change in my body and my brains cause I can't tolerate that med now and your theory about low cortisol level, adrenal fatigue because of the chronic stress make a lot of sense.
In the same way, I will react badly to the Effexor-XR, Pristiq or Cymbalta... but they have no a1 -2 - adrenergic receptor antagonist effect... they just have the reuptake inhibitor effect on the NE and to a lesser extend to the SE... I have a lot of carciac reactions on them as well as increase anxiety, increase head pain, migraine, dizziness, constant fatigue, eyes pain...
>
> Generic, very undependable. The only trustworthy form of Prozac is brand. I can't tell you how many problems are caused by generics. Canada. Well, any country with national health care suffers in the ability to give proper care to everyone...just the opposite of what they claim when they initiate these national programs. They sound good, but never work. As long as you are cared for in Canada, your options will be less than if in USA. That's just the way it is, sadly.
>
> >I know ;-) That suck... In the Canada, if you are disable from work and have no private health inssurance, you have to take the generic meds, because you don't pay for them. The only meds that i'm able to have as a brand name is the Paxil, the Pristiq, the Cymbalta, Lyrica and the Lexapro, because Doctor and PDoc give them in samples box... All the others are generic. PEoples who pay for there meds can ask to have the brand name... but not peoples who are not working...that's stupid...
> The right one will be good. It might not be a med. It might be an herb or a vitamin. Whatever it is, you haven't tried it yet.
>We can talk about vitamins... I take for a long time ( 1-2 years)a complex of Vitamins B.
I take also for a long period of time some magnesium, chronium, omega 3, zinc supplements.
Because of my gastric by-pass, I have to take daily 30 000 units of vitamin A, 50 000 units of vitamin D3, 1500 mg of Calcium, 1200 mg of Iron and one Centrum.
I never had any improve for the anxiety from the Vitamin B or magnesium or zinc or anything else. Maybe I don't absorb them very well...
> >
>
> No, you haven't tried all of them. Probably not even 50% of them.
>Hummm... the list can be long. I try perhaps 70% of the meds that are used off-label for anxiety disorder...( Mirapex, Inderall and many others beta blockers, Clonidine, Topamax, Lyrica, Vigabatrin, Neurontin, all the AP as well as others off-label meds that I don't remember...).
I never explore the Cortisol way or any others infections meds...
I know that my Thyroid was tested last year and was ok... My MRI test is ok also and I will have a holler heart test as well as a treadmill test with ultrasound test for my heart...I have the holler machine the 9 march and the treadmill and ultrasound test the 18 march...
I will have to get all my hormones tested soon... Will ask my Family Doctor for sure... I have an appointment with him the 6 april...
> That is the reputation of ssris. Hopefully it will work out for you.
>I think a low dose of a SSRI, Paxil or Prozac will be effective... I just need time and go very slowly... I know that I will react badly to them, I mean increase anxiety at first, a lot of head pain, eyes pain, dilated pulils, high blood pressure with fast pulse rate or low pulse rate, but what I can do, nothing... I have the choice to stay like I am now, or the choice to take 2-3 months to increase the SSRI and see any improve... What is the best option... I think that staying at home for a couple of weeks because of the side-effects of the SSRI will not kill me, anyway, I already stay at home because of the high anxiety, so I see no difference.
> Well, why not give paxil another try? If you did, you would probably have to do it the same way...very tiny doses very slowly.
>Last december, I give it another try. I cut my 10 mg pills into 4 pieces, mean 2,5mg. Start at 2,5mg on day one, was ok...small increase of anxiety and head pain was stronger than usual but no problem, second day was horrible, start having this inner tension, not able to stay sit, not able to sleep, dilated pupils, very low pulse rate, strong depersonalization and derealization feeling, photophobia... I continue at 2,5mg for a whole week... at the end of the week I was completly exhausted and I give up. MAybe the 2,5mg was too high for me and that's why a 1 mg dose, or a 1/2 mg dose will be more appropriate to initial the treatment with me???
Anyway, I ending at my Family Doctor office and he was thinking that I was on a beta blocker drug because of the low pulse rate. He also do some others physical test, told me that I had no reflex, probably because of the high dose of benzos that I take, he RX a MRI test for the head pain, I have nothing wrong inside my head, no tumor or anything else... He just told me to stop the Paxil and suggest to replace it with low dose of Lexapro. He give me some sample boxes of the brand Lexapro call Cipralex in the Canada...
I cut the 10 mg of Lexapro pill into 4 pieces of 2,5mg and had a more bad adverst effects than on the Paxil... who make me a lot worry...
I fall on a studie where they use mouse who was born without adrenal system and they test all the SSRI's avaible to see if the SSRI's had an effect on the NE, even if they are apparently just hitting the SE... and they found out that mouse with no adrenal system had no improve in depression/anxiety from all the SSRI's, only one SSRI, the Celexa, had an effect on those mouse. I don'T have the link sorry...
That's suggest to me that the Celexa and the Lexapro are the only 2 pure SSRI's...and don't toutch the NE...
I'm wondering why I had bad reaction with the Lexapro, it's suppose to affect only the SE???
Is it my fear of meds who trigger all of the side-effects that I had with a small 2,5mg of Lexapro? Those side-effects was mostly high pulse rate, gastric discomfort, dizziness, vertigo, strong head pain, increase anxiety 100000 worse than usual, visual disturbances... Is it my imagination, why I felt worse on the LExapro than on the Paxil? Did I really have a problem with my adrenal system???
That's a lot of questions...but I don't have any clue or answer...
In the same way, I tend to have all the rare side-effects of each meds I try, not the usual, why i'm like this??? That's another mystery...
>
> Savella is not available in Canada. And you probably are not comfortable mailordering from international? It is available worldwide through the mail. Most of us who have ordered it got it by the name Milnacipran, easily found in a google search. Not suggesting it, just saying it is always an option. When someone says "it is not available", well, that just isn't true.
>IF you have a credit card or have a lot of money, maybe it's not a problem to order meds in the Canada, but by experience, I know that the Canadian border tend to block the package before they reach your house!!! Since I don't work, I don't have money to loose... Ordering meds seem to be easier in the USA than in the Canada.
The truth is that I wanted to order the Stablon (Coaxil) and never find a online pharmacy who deliver it into the Canada!!! They deliver in the States, but not here... And I talk with someone who order it regulary and that person told me that even in the States, she sometimes don't recieve her pills... Also, most of the time, the meds are false or generic from Indians... Taking a pill who contain things that I don't know is not really interresting...Well, brand name or official generic are also sometimes not safe!!! lol Anyway...
Also, why the Milnacipran will be better than the Cymbalta? I mean, they act the same way in the brains... The Cymbalta have maybe a more high potent level for binding the SE sites, but it's strong also for the NE... so I see no advantage to order a med, who will cost a lot of money for me, oever the option to try again the Cymbalta, who seem to be a lot like the Milnacipran...
> I totally disagree. Remeron will stimulate the NE, but with no brakes. It is like stepping on the accelerator pedal with no brakes. If someone wanted to purposedly upset the feedback loop and prevent it from working, Remeron is one of the meds that can do that. So it can make anxiety worse in that case.
>I understand that... and that's why I will not take it anymore... but I have to be back on a small dose of SSRI at least... they are maybe not good in a long term view, but on me, the block panic and fears... I prefer to be emotional blocked and gain weight than living in a constant anxiety state...
I also know that the Seroquel is not an option... apparently, it's decreasing the cortisol level... Since I use it 10 months in 2009, for my insomnia problem, at a dose of 50 mg, sometimes 100 mg, maybe I worse my anxiety problem because of the Seroquel???
I need something for the insomnia and the Seroquel is perhaps the only one solution who work for me. The Trazodone didn't help me at all to sleep...as well as the ZZZZZZZ benzo drugs...
>
> It won't happen in Canada, so sorry I mentioned it. This is beyond the science of any country with national health care.
>Yeah... I had to be VERY VERY insistant with my Family Doctor to have a simple MRI test rx!!!
When the Doctor know that you have anxiety disorder, they put you in a group call hypochondria peoples... and it's hard to have blood tests or others medical tests done... since the Doctor think that all what you are experiencing is purely comming from the anxiety and not a disease...
> As for something to block the cortisol, I think it is just the opposite. I think your cortisol may be extremely low. The exaggerated NE response is the body's way of trying to compensate for that. You want something to increase cortisol, not decrease it. Siberian Ginseng, Licorice.
>I take note of this... I'm not sure if I will be able to find the Siberian Ginseng in the Canada... Natural products are really well control here. I think the Licorice will be more easy to find...
>
> Excellent. At least you know. Few people even try.
>Hypoglycimia diet is good to loose some pounds... and overall to be in a good shape...and have an active life.
High protein diet are also good, maybe not because of the L-Trypothan who increase the serotonin level... Anyway... each time I do that kind of diet, with only vegetables, potassium intake, magnesium intake, fiber and protein shake, I have more energy and my mood is more good... anxiety can be worse at the begining, but that tend to dissepear after a while... I should consider to return on that diet soon... since I have 30 pounds to loose... The only problem is the energy level for exercises... the fact that it's a low calories diet, make it really hard to do physical exercises...
>
> This looks like a big clue. Probably a lot more relevant to your whole situation than you are giving it credit for.
>I know, but I never was able to have an true answer about meds absorbtion. The Surgeons always told me that the surgery was safe and don't affect peoples moods or start anxiety disorders diseases...
I know from my personnal experience that since I had that surgery, I feel really bad, mentally and physically. That surgery was a disaster for my self-esteem... and I loose all my muscles... I had morbid obesity before, but I had a lot more energy also and I was strong!!! Now i'm weak and can't even walk more than 10 minutes without being tired as hell!!! At the gym, it's impossible to work out, I become tired after 10 minutes also...
>
> All good questions, and I'm sorry I don't have any good answers. The best we can all do is guess. Doctors get paid a lot of money to do that, so I am disappointed they don't take your suffering more seriously.
>Yeah, they see me like an anxious person and treat me like what I live is just in my head... they don't care about my symptoms or how I feel really... they want to be pay, that's it...
> Whatever you do, do in tiny doses.
>That's what I will do... Maybe try again the Paxil and cut small piece of 1 mg and put them into gel capsule, I have them already... Will try it one day and see what happen... I have to choose a day that I know that I will not have to get out of the house... I'm affraid but what can I do??? Nothing else, since the Doc and PDoc don't seem to care about my physical state as well as my mental state...
Thanks for your answer ;-)
Will look for the Siberian ginsgen... I hope I will find it in the Canada...
Have a nice day !
Vincent ;-)
Posted by Justherself54 on March 4, 2010, at 12:53:45
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2010, at 20:11:08
>>Canada. Well, any country with national health care suffers in the ability to give proper care to everyone...just the opposite of what they claim when they initiate these national programs. They sound good, but never work. As long as you are cared for in Canada, your options will be less than if in USA. That's just the way it is, sadly.
>>It won't happen in Canada, so sorry I mentioned it. This is beyond the science of any country with national health care.
As a Canadian, I find this offensive. I personally feel that comments such as these belong on the politics board.
Vincent, I have a terrible time with med sensitivity. Meds that once worked, don't anymore and have a whole different set of side effects the second or third go-round. My comfort zone with retrying old meds is at zero now and my pdoc understands this.
It sounds like your panic disorder is at a super high. The pdoc may have prescribed remeron as it can be a bit sedating. For me it was the opposite. I won't start a new medication unless I have something else on board (usually a benzo) to counteract any anxiety. For anyone who suffers from panic disorder, taking a med that can increase anxiety is a pretty terrifying thing.
If you feel your pdoc is not listening to you, get a referral to another one, and another one, until you find one that's going to work closely with you. The front line here is having a good GP, who makes good referrals.
There are alternative medicine doctors in Canada, probably much to Bleuberry's surprise..however, the one I saw years ago also thought he was qualified to administer a bunch of psych tests and determined I was schizophrenic! I took a bunch of mega doses of whatever supplements he prescribed and it didn't do squat.
I do so hope you can find some relief to get your panic symptoms under control and soon. Take care.
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 4, 2010, at 16:04:09
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Justherself54 on March 4, 2010, at 12:53:45
>
> As a Canadian, I find this offensive. I personally feel that comments such as these belong on the politics board.
>
> Vincent, I have a terrible time with med sensitivity. Meds that once worked, don't anymore and have a whole different set of side effects the second or third go-round. My comfort zone with retrying old meds is at zero now and my pdoc understands this.
>
> It sounds like your panic disorder is at a super high. The pdoc may have prescribed remeron as it can be a bit sedating. For me it was the opposite. I won't start a new medication unless I have something else on board (usually a benzo) to counteract any anxiety. For anyone who suffers from panic disorder, taking a med that can increase anxiety is a pretty terrifying thing.
>
> If you feel your pdoc is not listening to you, get a referral to another one, and another one, until you find one that's going to work closely with you. The front line here is having a good GP, who makes good referrals.
>
> There are alternative medicine doctors in Canada, probably much to Bleuberry's surprise..however, the one I saw years ago also thought he was qualified to administer a bunch of psych tests and determined I was schizophrenic! I took a bunch of mega doses of whatever supplements he prescribed and it didn't do squat.
>
> I do so hope you can find some relief to get your panic symptoms under control and soon. Take care.
>
>Hi ;-)
Hummm interresting to see that i'm not alone to feel horrible...For the PDoc you're right. I just call him today, tolding him that the Remeron was doing the inverse effect on me now. I also explain my fear about the Prozac as well as others meds that I try in the past...
He told me that for now, I have to try to take my meds, even if I feel worse and to go very slowly. He also say that he cannot help me more and that we have no other option...
So I feel like I will have to find another one PDoc cause that one don't seem to give a damw about what I feel inside and all the intense fears and symptoms that I have to live everyday of my life!!!
I explain to him the fact that maybe my adrenal gland are continually target and that can cause low cortisol level and ask for test... Also ask him if it was dangerous to have a higher level of adrenaline for a long period of time.. He don't answer and say that he don't do test like that on his patients...
I feel terrible alone now and I have no support. I think I will begin to go to a local meeting call "Phobie zéro", it's for peoples with phobias and a place where you meet peoples who live high anxiety... a place where you can feel understand by the others and maybe make new friends... friends who will understand me... At least, I need some good support and that PDoc do a terrible job...
He say that if I fail to start the Prozac or the Paxil before I see him again at the end of March, since I have some paxilo pills left over here, the next option will be to get off the Benzos meds and that I Will have to learn to live my life without any meds to help me to cope with anxiety ( panic + agoraphobia and social)...
Anyways, I feel like I receive invalid diagnostic for the rest of my life and feel like I will never live a normal life again...
I just want to cry...
I also react always in a different way to a med that I already try in the past.
Each time I react badly to one med, I'm of course not interrested about trying it again. Since I try all the AD's avaible in the Canada and only got some positive effects from the Paxil, I guess I will have to start it again, at a very low dose of 1mg... it will take months before I reach the 15 mg dose, the one who work for me...I don't want to be negative, but I know that I will have a hard time and will have to make some compromise, like staying home, because I will be not able to tolerate bright lights, loud sounds, crownds, public place or I will not be able to drive the car...
Also, i'm on 6 mg of Rivotril, who is not helping me to cope with the anxiety... I have no hope to find something to decrease the initial side-effects of the Paxil...
The Remeron was to help to cope with the insomnia... but the adrelanine feeling that I had from a small 15 mg dose was too much for me, yes I sleep more the night I took it, and yes, at daytime I had to return in my bed, but being sedated is not the good way for me to decrease my anxiety, in fact I Feel worse... the constant dizziness and fatigue just worse my anxiety overall... and the Adrenaline rush created by the Remeron is not for me...
Can I ask you some question???
How you succeed to start your med again or control your panic and your anxiety???
Also, did you have the same kind of symptoms that I have???
Thanks for your support!!!
Bye!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by Justherself54 on March 4, 2010, at 18:29:42
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia) » Justherself54, posted by Vincent_QC on March 4, 2010, at 16:04:09
So sorry Vincent that you are having a rough time with your pdoc. Even though I feel I'm out of med options, I at least have comfort that my pdoc will not stop trying and has told me that we can't give up. I can't imagine him telling me I have to live the rest of my life in this state (even though I sometimes feel this is as good as it's going to get. You need to find a pdoc who won't give up on you.
I felt the same way you did on Remeron..sedated, yet anxious. It's a very unpleasant feeling.
I'm not surprised that he won't order testing for cortisol and such..it's kind of like a line is drawn somewhere between them and the GP's, although I know when I was very ill and in hospital my pdoc and GP worked closely together.
I have done well in the past with SSRI's. SNRI's are a no-go for me. I have been fortunate that my panic symptoms have been OK for awhile. I used to get panic attacks in store lineups and highway driving..so far I'm able to do both..but I never know when it will get out of control again. My situation is a bit different as I'm bipolar also.
In the past year I've retried parnate, paxil, zoloft, lexapro, cymbalta (very bad), remeron (very bad). I'm about to discuss possibly retrying nardil, even though the physical side effects were horrendous. I too, don't know what to do. Nothing works the same again or I'll get partial effect and then poop-out.
Going to a support group may be a very good thing for you..it can help with the social anxiety of things, where you can do some socializing with people who are going through the same thing you are. It might be helpful when you are restarting a med to have face-to-face support to help alleviate the stress. I can remember being in a support chat room for most of an evening, trying to work up the nerve to take 25 mg of seroquel..I was so terrified..and the people I was talking with really helped.
I wish I could give you a magic solution, but I have none..just know you're not alone.
Posted by bleauberry on March 4, 2010, at 20:44:13
In reply to Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 15:46:43
Vincent I just wanted to follow up on a couple things.
Eleuthero. That is the name of Siberian Ginseng. It is claimed to rebalance bodily systems and to strengthen the body against stress. If cortisol is too high, it will lower. If cortisol is too low, it will raise it. It does a bunch of stuff, but very mildly and over a long period of time. Benefits may not be noticeale for 3 to 6 months. It is important to keep taking it every day just as you would with your vitamins or minerals. It is one of the premier plants of the earth. There are literally hundreds of scientific studies on it. The claims of what it does are mostly true.
But again, very very low doses to start with. I am sensitive and had to start with 25mg. My only side effect at that dose was agitation. I skipped a day, took another, skipped a couple days, took another, and after a four weeks was able to 50mg every day with no problem. And it keeps going like that on the climb upward in dose. It was at about a month I started to notice hints of better energy, better mood, more relaxed and comfortable, and such.
I am off the medication topic here for a moment, looking at the alternative methods, because in this case it is strongly warranted. Meds alone are not going to fix you, and in fact as you have already seen can make things a lot worse. When this happens, we have to say, "ok, the rules that everyone else plays by do not apply to me, my game is different than theirs." This situation needs a more comprehensive full package approach versus any single pill.
My doctor let me borrow one of his books on healing cortisol problems with just food. The typical pattern is to feel worse for a few weeks or even a couple months, improvements beginning at about 3 months, better at 6 months, and completely healed at 2 years. The diet basically goes like this: Mostly fresh raw veggies; some very slightly cooked veggies; fruits, but avoid the very sugary ones, all the berries are your best fruits, granny smith apple is the only apple choice, no bananas; avoid starchy veggies such as potatoes and carrots and most root veggies; avoid all forms of sugar...sugar, sucrulose, fructose, corn syrup, etc; avoid all artificial sugars except Stevia, stevia is good and actually has some healing power of its own; very little or no caffeine; lots of water, more than you think; herbal teas are good; heavy on proteins from meats, nuts, seeds; generous amounts of healthy fats such as nuts, avocados, eggs; eat all the butter and cream you want, but cut back on milk; avoid wheat, barley, barley malt, and instead go for brown rice, millet, quinoa, and oatmeal; and take either yogurt or a good refrigerated brand of probiotic supplement everyday.
Avoiding wheat deserves mention of its own. With your gut history, avoiding gluten is probably a very wise thing to do. Gluten is found in wheat, barley, barley malt, and traces in oats. It would be safe to assume you are either gluten intolerant or gluten sensitive.
In a nutshell...heavy on proteins and fats, heavy on veggies and fruits, avoid sugars and caffeine as much as possible, avoid starches and most grains.
In the early weeks, food changes like these can be hard because you miss your old favorite foods that are not on the good list. But after a few months, your taste buds become trained to actually like your new foods better, and you no longer desire or like your old foods anymore.
Adrenal cortex extracts can be helpful. But with your sensitivity you would have to take extremely small doses to start with. Your system can easily be thrown for a loop by any little changes. Even a diet change would cause you to feel weird things happening. If you do get an adrenal extract, be sure it is the adrenal cortex extract and not the whole adrenal extract. This helps to do what the missing cortisol would have done. I mentioned licorice in the last post. Licorice slows down the breakdown of cortisol and so allows what little you have to last longer.
Tyrosine is a building block for the adrenals and thyroid. While most people talk about doses in the 500mg to 2000mg range, for you it would realistically be 25mg. Even that little amount would make a positive difference.
With anything...anything...meds, herbs, food changes...do it with extremely tiny doses and in small steps.
When it comes to meds, you are in a different game than most people, and the rules for you are different. For example, someone else may start with 5mg lexapro and have a target of 20mg, even before they have any clue of what will happen.
In your case, there is no preconceived target. You do not have a target dose, and you do not even have a plan to increase your dose. You wait and see what happens at the lowest dose you can tolerate before making any other moves. Your response guides your journey, not a preconceived blind plan. Your ending dose may very well be your starting dose. And your starting dose may be as low as 1/10th of 1mg, or 1mg, or whatever...some amount that would seem ridiculously low to someone else. Can such a tiny insignificant amount actually work? For someone else, maybe, maybe not. For you, yes. You are sensitive not only to the side effects, but also to the therapeutics. The entire game you are in is vastly different than what your doctors are trained in, so to play their game is an almost guaranteed losing game. Only a few doctors have a keen talent at treating people like you.
Most of this information I got from the year I spent seeing a most excellent medical doctor not far from Canada actually. I learned a lot from him. Almost every single one of his patients was like you and me. He didn't have any ordinary patients. All of his were the ones failed by multiple other doctors. So what I have shared with you in my posts is a collection of realworld wisdom seen in actual practice with very difficult patients and I hope you will find some of it helpful.
No matter what you do, it is going to be slow going. So don't expect fast changes. Keep your eye on 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, as your targets. Don't think in terms of days or weeks. And I think you are going to be fine.
Posted by emmanuel98 on March 5, 2010, at 21:04:18
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia) » bleauberry, posted by Vincent_QC on March 5, 2010, at 10:06:16
Vincent - I am sorry for all your troubles. But it sounds like your anxiety is out of control. I unserstand your frustration with your p-doc, but your p-doc may well feel that you are so anxious and apt to imagine symptoms from medications, that he doesn't know what do to. You must realize that your physical symptoms are mostly vague, anxiety produced hyperchondrias. Do you see a therapist? That might help. To see a therapist and work through some of your fears with someone on a regular basis. I think your idea about joining a group is very good. YOu will be able to get out of yourself for an hour or so and get some perspective from others. It seems that you have hunkered down with all your fears and hyperchondrias and are now afraid of doing anything. You need to get out and talk to someone. Therapy would probably help a lot!
Good luck to you!
Posted by conundrum on March 5, 2010, at 23:18:28
In reply to Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Vincent_QC on March 3, 2010, at 15:46:43
For someone like you manifesting these symptoms, and knowing that they're not rational, therapy will probably do worlds more for you than a drug could. I don't know much about the therapy used for these OCD type of symptoms but in some studies therapy was 2x more beneficial than drug therapy for OCD.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2010, at 9:17:37
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Justherself54 on March 4, 2010, at 12:53:45
> I personally feel that comments such as these belong on the politics board.
I agree, here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20090821/msgs/938687.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2010, at 9:24:50
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by bleauberry on March 4, 2010, at 20:44:13
> I am off the medication topic here for a moment, looking at the alternative methods, because in this case it is strongly warranted.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding alternative methods to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20091202/msgs/938689.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2010, at 19:11:34
In reply to Redirect: alternative methods, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2010, at 9:24:50
Sometimes alternative means and medical meds are combined. How can split this? Phillipa
Posted by 10derHeart on March 6, 2010, at 19:44:11
In reply to Redirect: alternative methods, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2010, at 9:24:50
I think it was moved because 99% of bleauberry's post is about foods and/or alternative methods, not medications.
Posted by conundrum on March 7, 2010, at 21:03:20
In reply to Re: Redirect: alternative methods » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on March 6, 2010, at 19:44:11
Also I think you can still follow up in this thread if its not about alternative treatments.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2010, at 0:56:05
In reply to Re: Redirect: alternative methods » 10derHeart, posted by conundrum on March 7, 2010, at 21:03:20
> Also I think you can still follow up in this thread if its not about alternative treatments.
Definitely, thanks for reminding everyone,
Bob
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 8, 2010, at 7:24:44
In reply to Re: Medication Phobia (pharmacophobia), posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2010, at 0:56:05
> > Also I think you can still follow up in this thread if its not about alternative treatments.
>
> Definitely, thanks for reminding everyone,
>
> Bob
>
>Well, for me the thread about med phobia is over.
Will not start any kind of antidepressants before I see my Family Doctor, who are a specialist in the treatment of the anxiety diseases.. The PDoc is more involve into depression treatments...and don't seem to know how to deal with anxiety disorder, since you never give up and told a patient that their is no hope, in a med way of view... Maybe i'm sensitive to antidepressants meds now, but that's doesn't mean that I will be sensitive to another type of medication...
I also having BAD chronic tension headache since 4 months now. I had some previous periods of my life where I got those chronic tension headache type... each episode was trigger by overstress, especially after an university trimister or any kind of new stress environnement (new job)...Normally, I deal well with that kind of headache, pop up once in a while an Advil...but not too much to prevent rebound headache... but this time it's reaching a higher peak of pain and the headache last severals days... normally it's 3-4 days in a row, now I reach the 6-7 days in a row without a break... of course, that adding anxiety on me...
My tension headache are chronic, I mean that when I start having a headache, it's last 3-4 days, the pain stop for 1-2 days and start again... it can last 4-6 months... and seem to fade away when i'm starting a new project in my life, like start school again or just change my minds or having new anxiety symptoms, who will make me forgetting the headache and focus on the new anxiety symptoms...
The pain comming from that type of headache is located always on each side of the head, near the temple and behind the eyes. The pain is always higher in one side of the head, switching from the left to the right. On a scale of 10, the pain reach a peak of 8-9 in the evening.
I consider maybe to ask my Family Doctor to start the Lyrica, who will prevent another episode of chronic tension headache and will decrease the anxiety.
Well, it's a theory... I know that the Lyrica have a lof of pros and cons, because of the side-effects... but overall, it's having more side-effects than the Neurontin, but seem to be stronger also. The neurontin never work on me, the pins and needles effect was not tolerable and not helpfull for the anxiety... just adding more stress... after a 3600 mg day trail for 2 months... I hated that med a lot... was not helpfull at all...
I only try the Lyrica two times in my life, the first time was before I start the Rivotril back in 2005. I remember that one 75mg pill send me to the bed for almost 12 hours in a row... At the time, I had only social anxiety, so the sedation was not welcome. I stop it after that one dose...
In the spring of 2009, I start having chronic tension headache, as well as panic disorder again. Trigger by too much anxiety and pressure from the gym and exercises... So the Family Doc decide to give some samples box of the true brand name Lyrica...75 mg capsules... he said that it will be good for anxiety and headache... I say ok, why not... I took one 75mg pill before bedtime and had a really bad night... this time, I never felt the sedative effect or the anxiolytic effect, probably because of my addiction to the benzos meds and the fact that my brains are used now to their hyptnotic and sedative effects...
I remember that I spend the night dealing with face flushing, hot neck and shoulder.. It was like I had a really hot sensation on my skin and a flow of blood rushing into my head... I hated that effect so much that I just stop it again after one dose...
I never give up so I call the Family Doc and he put me on the Sabril (Vigabatrin), who is not avaible in the USA and act as an irreversible suicide inhibitor of the GABA-T, the enzyme responsible for the catabolism of GABA, which in theory increases the level of GABA in the brain...
I had the same flushing reaction on that med... I barely stay one week on 500 mg, where the target dose was 1500mg a day... I never reach that state... the facial flushing and strange numbless effect in the head was again too much for me...
Yeah, i'm med sensitive... I know... lol
I return to see my Family Doc and he put me on the Neurontin again... Strangely, I had the same facial flushing effect, is it my anxiety who do tricks on me????
Anyway it was less powerfull than the Lyrica effect or the Sabril... I stay 1 weeks on the Neurontin, start at 300mg day 1, increase at 600 mg day 2 and stay at 900 mg for 5 days. The low doses divided in 3 doses daily, was by far lower than my previous trail in 2005, where I was at 3600 mg day... What I can say is that at 900 mg day, I had the facial flushing effect and the old and boring pins and needles effect in the head...
I never had the pins and needles on the Lyrica or the Sabril... but I remember that I had it on the Topamax...
I know those kind of meds are not killing the headache right away.. they take time to build up in the system and work more as preventive treatment for chronic tension headache... but in a period of high pain and chronic tension headache, a lot of people, like me, want the pain to stop right now!!! Who is normal... I think...
Anyway, I call my Family Doc office today, will ask to be see as an emergency case...i'm planning to ask for the Lyrica for the headache... I will try to forget the flushing effect...and last more than 2 days on it...The main problem is the additive sedation than the Lyrica can add to my 6 mg of Rivotril I already take each day... I just hope it will be ok... I'm already a lot dizzi and have a double vision problem...
It's about time that I start a CBT soon... I need to learn new tricks to manage my stress and control it... A schema therapy or a PNL will be very welcome for me...
Will also ask my Family Doc to give me some references about private clinics and private PDoc... I'm tired of the free services offer by the public healt system... and the fact that I cannot have another PDoc...
Anyway, end of the story...
Thanks everyone!
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2010, at 20:00:10
In reply to adrenal fatigue + tension headache (Lyrica) » Dr. Bob, posted by Vincent_QC on March 8, 2010, at 7:24:44
Vincent I forget did you have an MRI of the brain? For the headaches? Love Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 8, 2010, at 20:44:06
In reply to Re: adrenal fatigue + tension headache (Lyrica) » Vincent_QC, posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2010, at 20:00:10
> Vincent I forget did you have an MRI of the brain? For the headaches? Love Phillipa
Hummm you already forget that? lol I'm kidding...
I had a MRI test done the last 22th january... and nothing is wrong with my brain or veins or anything else who can cause headache...
My headache are tension headache, you have to kind of tension headache, the one who are trigger by stress and who last only a couple of hours and dissepear when the stress level decrease... and the chronic one, who last for several days in a row... Those kind of headache are linked to the anxiety level and tend to come in cycles... Will have it for 1-2 weeks in a row... will be free of pain for 1-2 weeks and the headache will start again....the pain is always near the temples and behind the eyes... that's a dull pain, mean that it's really annoying and painful...
A lot of meds are used to treat those kind of headache... The old dirty tca Elavil... but I try it in the past and it never work... I go up to 50 mg at bedtime and I had more side-effects than anything else.
After you have the beta blockers meds, that I try also for anxiety and headache... and no improve on them also... they tend to make you really tired...
After sometimes some analgesic meds like the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) can be used like the Naproxen... they are good to decrease the pain, but they increase the risk of stomach bleeding and heart attacks...
And as off-label meds you have the anticonvulsants meds... Topamax who work more for the migraine type of headache and cause of lot of numbless everywhere in the body and can induce anxiety as well as terrible cognitives problems..., the neurontin, who is not doing anything else than pins and needles effect, the Lyrica that I never try for real ( 2 days in a row is not a real trail for me and I never reach the effective dose anyway)...
When I had my surgery last november, I was on the Naproxen to prevent the inflammatory and I never had a single tension headache for the 3 weeks I was on that med... maybe it was because of the high pain level, who distract me and make me forget the neadache, or the many panic attacks that I was experiencing each that I had to go to the bathroom... but the tension headache start again 2 days after I stop the Naproxen... is it possible that the tension headache return because I stop the Naproxen? Who know...
Since I know it's tension headache, I don't use Advils or Tylenols because they are not effective ... and if I do it, it's in extremely emergency case, when I will hit my head on the wall if I continue to feel the pain!!! lol They decrease a little bit the pain, but that last only 30minutes to 1 h... I stop using them after my family doc told me that they cause a lot of rebound headache... I was already award of this, but had nothing to decrease the pain or prevent those headache...
Some peoples will find the Tylenol + codeine effective, but I find it very anxiogenic... I can't stand opiate meds...
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2010, at 21:19:58
In reply to Re: adrenal fatigue + tension headache (Lyrica) » Phillipa, posted by Vincent_QC on March 8, 2010, at 20:44:06
Vincent thought you had had an MRI. Just wanted to be sure. Why not try the motrin for a few days. Think they are cluster headaches? Love Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on March 8, 2010, at 21:48:52
In reply to Re: adrenal fatigue + tension headache (Lyrica) » Vincent_QC, posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2010, at 21:19:58
> Vincent thought you had had an MRI. Just wanted to be sure. Why not try the motrin for a few days. Think they are cluster headaches? Love Phillipa
Cluster headache are not the same Phillipa...
Wait a minute... if I look on wiki, I will tell you the difference between cluster and tension headaches... lol
Tension headache: Tension-type headaches can be episodic or chronic. Episodic tension-type headaches are defined as tension-type headaches occurring fewer than 15 days a month, whereas chronic tension headaches occur 15 days or more a month for at least 6 months ( That's what I have). Tension-type headaches can last from minutes to days, months or even years, though a typical tension headache lasts 46 hours.
Cluster headache: excruciating unilateral headaches, of extreme intensity. The duration of the common attack ranges from as short as 15 minutes to three hours or more. The onset of an attack is rapid, and most often without the preliminary signs that are characteristic of a migraine. However, some sufferers report preliminary sensations of pain in the general area of attack, often referred to as "shadows", that may warn them an attack is imminent. Though the headaches are almost exclusively unilateral, there are some documented as cases of "side-shifting" between cluster periods, or, even rarer, simultaneously (within the same cluster period) bilateral headache. Trigeminal neuralgia can also bring on headaches with similar qualities. However, with Trigeminal neuralgia the pain is mostly located around the "cheek" area and is described as being more lance-like in quality.
I can tell you that i'm having chronic tension headache, who last more than 15 days a months...
In june 2006, I start having my first chronic tension headache experience... the headache last almost 9 months in a row, without a day with no pain... At some point, I was involved a lot into school works and I kinda forget the pain... and I stop having chronic tension headache... I had only 1 or 2 headache a week at a low intensity...
It's the second time in my life where i'm experiencing chronic tension headache... mean more than 15 days a month...
I had migraine as a child... at teenager years they stop... Had some migraines again when I was put on the Paxil in 1994... and since then, I have headache 1-2 times a week...
But regular and annoying painfull headache who last for more than 2 weeks are really hard to support for me... it's hard to be active and move my *ss when I feel that pain in my head...
For my normal head pain... not the headache, it's probably linked to the Benzo meds... the gaba crave for more benzo... but those receptors will crave more and more because I will not take more of them !!! lol
Motrin = Same active ingredient than the Advil = rebound headache...
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2010, at 21:52:11
In reply to Re: adrenal fatigue + tension headache (Lyrica) » Phillipa, posted by Vincent_QC on March 8, 2010, at 21:48:52
Advil for a few days? That won't cause rebound? Phillipa
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