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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 65 to 89 of 123. Go back in thread:
Posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 11:46:44
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:49:40
Dinah, you and Phillipa aren't the same. When it appears that Phillipa is being bullied here, it causes you to remember and re-experience the pain you felt when that happened to you as a child. That was a situation in which you had done nothing wrong whatsoever.
In this present situation, there have been allegation for several years, and by at least several people, that Phillipa has caused anxiety or harm to others by how she used e-mails or Babblemails. These are allegations only. The people who feel they have been harmed by this are posting here to try to prevent that from happening again in the future. They do have a right to speak up against what they perceive as injustices dome to them. They are thus fundamentally different from the children who bullied you in middle school - there was absolutely no reason or justification for that.
I think it would help tremendously if Bob helped out in this situation. in making sure that the civility rules are being followed when it comes to Babblemails, We need his assurance that this site is being run fairly and equitably. This would help a great deal to allay the distress and animosity which is developing in this thread and in others.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:00:38
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 11:46:44
Timely administration would definitely help.
But no matter what Phillipa did off board, threads like this are threads like this. They speak for themselves, and not about Phillipa.
You think you've received information about Phillipa on this thread? I've received information about each and every person posting on this thread. I've learned a couple of people are as wonderful as I always thought they were. Bless them.
Yes, this situation throws me back to my childhood. But no, Phillipa is not unlike me. Phillipa is a person deserving of respect. Just like me and just like you.
I didn't like it when Dr. Bob provided links to every one of your posts that led to a block. Perhaps you didn't like it either. I don't see this thread as being any different than that. Even if every accusation was true and without any additional context whatsoever. And I try to never listen to gossip when I have no idea of truth or context. Or even when I do.
Am I to learn from you that you think only some people should receive respect and kindness and support?
That some sorts of spreading of negative information about others is ok, while others aren't?
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:04:07
In reply to Re: What can I do? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:00:38
I tried to stay out of this for my own good but also for yours. I knew that if I said anything, people would start saying why doing what they did to you was ok. Which, if I were in your place, would hurt me. It has hurt me in the past, on Babble.
I am truly sorry for any hurt caused to you by my futile and stupid attempts to stop this.
If I were you, I think I would try to find a board where this wouldn't happen to you. One with timely moderation perhaps. Tho I understand not wanting to leave because of this.
I want to leave. I'm going to try to leave.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:06:31
In reply to Phillipa, I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:04:07
What I said just stirred things up more, and that was anything but my intent. I snapped I guess, and I regret doing anything that just leads to more of what I found so upsetting to begin with.
I think you ought to read and act on notifications within a 24 hour period.
You were right, I ought to move on from where I feel powerless.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:11:38
In reply to Re: Phillipa - Say it ain't so. » Dinah, posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 10:46:57
I know how much it hurts, and how disordering it is to life to lose a parent. It's different from other losses. Part of the firmament of life is disrupted.
Take good care of yourself. Grab onto solid ground wherever you can. You're a special person, and I want only the best for you.
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 12:27:37
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Solstice, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 11:19:04
> When I read your response to Maxime's post about Phillipa, I concluded that your response was also about Phillipa.
But they weren't. I never used Phillipa's name - I was specifically addressing Maxime's concerns about having information collected and dissemimated. Like Scott, I have no way of knowing whether what Maxime has described has actually happened. Having been a long-time reader, though, it is worth acknowledging that I remember reading about other posters periodically having similar complaints over a long period of time. If this were the first time an issue had been raised, I would lean toward being skeptical in an effort to give Phillipa the benefit of the doubt. However, Maxime's complaint is not the first verse of this song. The multiplicity of the compaint and complainors indicates a pattern that, although I have no personal experience, merits my paying attention.
> Since I wasn't aware of any accusations of Phillipa doing the things that you were talking about,well.. Maxime has said that she believes information is collected..
> it was upsetting to me to have it brought up in connection with a post about Phillipa.and again, I have no personal experience with Phillipa doing what Maxime has said.. but my post was intended to address Maxime's concerns in a general way. Bottom line is that based on my experience with being stalked, there really is no way to stop someone from collecting information and keeping files. That statement is not intended to validate charges against Phillipa - as much as it's intended to state a reality that we should all be mindful of. Maxime's life experiences likely make her particularly vulnerable to feeling very threatened by such things (as do mine) - maybe similarly to your experience with peer bullying making you particularly vulnerable to threads like these. I have particular vulnerabilities of my own - which includes my motives being misunderstood and that resulting in negative conclusions about me that are erroneous.
> It was also rather upsetting to hear a sensible person talking about behavior I do routinely as creepy. It made me wonder if I *was* creepy.I hope you understand now that I was not referring to the behavior you described! The 'creepy' I described is nowhere in the vicinity of what you are even capable of.
> Thank you for clarifying that you were not talking about Phillipa, and that you do not find organizing folders of information people have made available to you creepy.Right. I was not talking about Phillipa specifically. I was talking about the creepiness of stalking-type behaviors.
> I'm sorry I misunderstood. I hope you keep in mind that I haven't had a long association with you such that I would understand these things without asking.I'm always aware of the lopsided nature of my feeling connected to a community that hasn't had enough time/experience with me to feel a mutual connection with me. That said.. your post didn't leave me feeling like I was being asked anything. It felt to me like negative conclusions had been drawn about me without requests for clarification. I'm glad it feels resolved for me.
> Perhaps because you feel you know me, it upsets you when I don't have the same knowledge of you?I don't expect you (or anyone here) to have the same knowledge of me that I have of them. I am always aware of, and respectful of, that dissonance. It would be illogical for it to upset me.
> That I take your statements more at face value?
Keeping in mind my high regard for you, I don't think my statements were interpreted at face value. I think my statements may have inadvertently hit a raw nerve in you, leading to your life experiences leaking out into it. And know what, Dinah? it doesn't matter. I found this place because of my own pain. Your posts over the last 10 years were often like salve for me. Your self-insights, your generousity of spirit (think your T's recent abominable lapse in judgment!).. have helped me grow. Most of us are here because we have vulnerabilities. I feel privileged - honored - to accommodate the vulnerabilities of others.. in the hopes that when my own vulnerabilities crop up, I will be held in mercy.
> Building a relationship takes time, I'm afraid. I look forward to be able to do so, if I can.I know it does :-) My having been someone who silently soaked up the benefits of psycho-babble may even be a sign that it takes an especially long time for me to feel 'safe' enough to engage.. so believe me, I have a great respect for the time it takes. And I really do hope that you are able to allow yourself to give me a chance to earn a relationship with you.
> Although as things stand now at Babble, I am highly doubtful of my ability to tolerate an effectively unmoderated board. I had divorced myself entirely from Admin but I suppose this thread reached some unknown critical mass for me.I'm not even a little bit doubtful about your ability. One thing I do know about you, Dinah, is that you have an enormously compassionate and merciful core that seems to ultimately override things that happen along the way that make you want to protectively withdraw. I've seen you put yourself in harm's way on behalf of others, repeatedly. You've got an emotional stamina that you may not even see - but it's evident in how many times you have risen above your own pain... always with wisdom.. poignant self-awareness.. and mercy.
Yep... I'm a Dinah-fan. :-)
Solstice
Posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 13:00:33
In reply to Re: What can I do? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:00:38
Not at all, Dinah! You deserve the utmost in respect, kindness and support - you and everyone else. I was just trying to point out that while you never caused one moment of harm to the children who bullied you, Maxime is trying to redress damages which she feels were done to her by Phillipa. For your and Phillipa's situation to be comparable, you would have had to, say, allegedly spread malicious rumors abut the other children prior to their bullying iou. Of course, you did nothing like that, whereas Maxime has said that this was done to her several times. While you did absolutely nothing to provoke those horrible episodes of bullying, Maxime alleges that Phillipa did several things which she experienced as harmful.
Even though these two situations are different, in that one was
completely unprovoked and the other developed because of several alleged provocations, the emotions they arouse are so similar - raw and powerful. That is why we really need Bob to clarify the facts of this situation and the actions taken. If he does that, it will be a lot easier for us to adjust our feelings so that they accord with reality (I don;t mean you especially, I mean all of us. It's so hard to know how to feel when we don't know what is really happening)Dinah, just because I see one difference between your and Phillipa's situation doesn't mean I don't think you deserve respecr- of course you do - always!
Although I'm not sure why you brought it up, I have never read that particular post from Bob to me, because I knew if I did it wuld hurt me a lot.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 13:11:36
In reply to Re: What can I do? » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on January 5, 2011, at 13:00:33
I was saying that Phillipa also deserves respect.
As do you.
People don't deserve these very long threads about their alleged wrongdoings.
If anyone has concerns about administration regarding certain behaviors, they can be adequately addressed without making it all about one person. Better addressed, in fact.
But what on earth is Dr. Bob going to do about emails? Uncivil babblemails can be forwarded to him and they will be addressed. That's difficult enough since context isn't as easily discerned as it is on board. Emails are out of his hands.
Again, I tell everyone. Don't email, babblemail. Don't send posters any information you consider private unless you have very good reason to trust that person. For example, if you know that person for a long time and have observed how they behave with regard to confidentiality and gossip. I'm sure more than one person has passed information on. Trust sparingly and appropriately. Be discreet. Be kind.
Report uncivil babblemails to Dr. Bob. There's nothing he can do about uncivil emails. Don't email others if you're worried about that.
I don't see why one person has to be singled out to make those appropriate points. There's something to be said about being discreet and kind on board as well.
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 13:33:14
In reply to Dr Bob, I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 12:06:31
> You were right, I ought to move on from where I feel powerless.
Perhaps you can feel more empowered by not expecting of yourself that you should have such power.
I am selfish. I want you to stay.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:12:08
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » Dinah, posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 13:33:14
I could possibly work for years to come to the point where I don't expect myself to have the power to achieve anything. I don't think I will ever get to the point where I don't say anything. Avoidance is easier.
(I had to skip Sunday School for a few months while they were doing a book I found rather anti-Semitic. I probably should have gone every week to point out the errors. But it was easier not to be there. What I am constitutionally unable to do was go and say nothing.)
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
In reply to Re: What can I do? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 13:11:36
> I was saying that Phillipa also deserves respect.
>
> As do you.I don't think that holding people accountable is necessarily disrespectful.
> People don't deserve these very long threads about their alleged wrongdoings.If the result of an isolated incident, I might feel the same way. However, I think that communities respond to their members in self-governing ways sort of naturally. Even animals do that. I think there would be something kind of abnormal going on if a community member was engaging in harmful behaviors to others, repeatedly over a long period of time and to multiple members - and the group of members didn't somehow react in a way that was driven by a need to extinguish the harmful behavior. That's the only way a society of any kind can cohesively exist for a long period of time. Cohesive doesn't mean in 'total harmony.' That's a ridiculously impossible utopia. It more means that it's about the whole group self-adjusting. I don't hear anyone calling for Phillipa to be banished or abandoned. But perhaps social pressure will succeed in causing Phillipa and everyone else to really 'get it' that this community is not tolerant of using babblemail to gossip and spread private information about other members whether accurate or not. And even though Bob is not able to monitor regular email, if community members use regular email to spread gossip or say mean things about others - although they may not get blocked - their behavior is likely to come back and bite them. I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
One thing I'm pretty sure of, is that it would be highly unusual for a community like this to without cause, have an assortment of members over a long period of time make random and unfounded complaints of the same nature about a single member.
As for as trying to handle it off-board, I think the multiplicity of the history of complaints means that it's not a problem for a single member to work out on their own off board. I think it really might be a Community problem. Reporting facts about things that have taken place is not uncivil or unkind. Reactions to factual events might become uncivil or unkind. That of course brings us back to the question of whether Maxime's report is factual - which again raises the issue of Maxime's report being the most recent of a long history of similar reports by various people. That alone lends credibility, even without Maxime attempting to get copies of communication (reportedly) sent to others about her.
With respect to Maxime - I think it's a mistake to 'kill the messenger.' I also think she has put a lot of effort into ensuring that the harm she has experienced doesn't drive uncivil postings about the matter. She needs to be heard. Both Maxime and Phillipa need to feel supported, but the support Maxime needs is different than the support Phillipa needs.
I am no expert - and perhaps there are things I don't yet see that may affect my view. These are just my thoughts at this time on the matter.
Solstice
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:37:53
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
As I said to Phillipa, my intervention just brings along more of the same sort of post. I find that very frustrating, since I am responsible for causing Phillipa additional pain.
I'm sure you'll understand why I don't reply any further to posts that contain negative comments about Phillipa or any other individual babbler.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:41:31
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
However, I don't hold you responsible for my decision.
What you do is what you do. What I do in response in my own responsibility.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:08:36
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
> I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
Of course, it not infrequently happens that a dog is driven away from a pack without fences. That may be seen as a very good thing by the pack. Occasionally a dog will even be seriously injured before it limps, bleeding, away. Or worse.
Funny thing is that the kids from middle school would have said the same thing. I exhibited behavior that was objectionable to them. They savaged me right out of their pack to another school.
You think of this as a *good* thing? We truly see things from different points of view. It's hard for me to believe that this is Bob's new vision of Babble.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:17:35
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:08:36
to one of my posts....
It better as h*ll be negative about ME.
You got something to say, you say it about ME.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2011, at 15:49:42
In reply to Re: public forum )) gardenergirl, posted by Maxime on January 4, 2011, at 22:52:44
> HA! I found something even better that I can examine in a petri dish. Mario!! I found this on a site http://kotaku.com/5429450/mario-recreated-in-petri-dish
>
> Beat that GG! :pThat's awesome!!!!!
Posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2011, at 15:52:22
In reply to If anyone has anything negative to say in response, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:17:35
Dinah,
I'm sorry you're hurting so much. And I'm just in awe of your fierce support. You matter, my friend.gg
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 16:05:33
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:08:36
> > I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
>
> Of course, it not infrequently happens that a dog is driven away from a pack without fences. That may be seen as a very good thing by the pack. Occasionally a dog will even be seriously injured before it limps, bleeding, away. Or worse.You're right - that aspect can certainly exist - but that's not what I was thinking of. Of course with Cesar, he's always there to prevent that kind of thing from developing. Maybe that's why closer moderation here is important.
> Funny thing is that the kids from middle school would have said the same thing. I exhibited behavior that was objectionable to them. They savaged me right out of their pack to another school.And that's horrible. I did not mean to imply that ANYone should be treated that way. Legitimately objectionable behavior can be rejected, without rejecting the person. When I say 'objectionable behavior,' I'm talking about behavior that is causing harm to others.
> You think of this as a *good* thing?Absolutely not.. and I'm sad that it has sounded like that to you.
> We truly see things from different points of view.Not necessarily.. because I don't think my point of view is accurately understood. I regret that.
> It's hard for me to believe that this is Bob's new vision of Babble.It might not be fair to yourself to draw conclusions right now about Bob's vision for Babble.
Solstice
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 17:47:31
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » SLS, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:12:08
> I could possibly work for years to come to the point where I don't expect myself to have the power to achieve anything.
Isn't this black-or-white, all-or-nothing thinking?
I probably didn't word my post properly. I wasn't suggesting that you have no power. I was just suggesting that you don't have power over everything. It is also abundantly clear to me that you don't appreciate the power that you do have. You have influenced my thinking on more than one occasion. That's true power. Perhaps there is a control thing going on. Perhaps it is perfectionism. Whatever it is, it is not fair to you that you should assume so much responsibility over the workings of the entire Universe. It really is self-defeating. To raise your expectations of yourself to accomplish things that are beyond your potential (to control) is to become (feel) powerless.
The measure of achievement lies not in how high the mountain, but in how hard the climb.The measure of success lies only in how high one feels he must climb to get there.
- Scott
Posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:20:30
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » SLS, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:12:08
Dinah, I think you have properly addressed the thread with your rules of internet etiquette. I feel you are fair, compassionate and have heart bigger than your body can hold. You are a stable force here and I, as well as the majority of the members here, would feel a great loss if we didn't see your insightful and supportive posts. I don't feel you have done anything that should bring doubt to your mind as your motives are pure and honest. :)
Posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:29:09
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
> > I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
I am not trying to defend or accuse anyone; just making an observation. Interesting analogy with dogs. I have seen many documentaries on pack behavior where they hunt together and single out the weak or sick to attack. The eating of newborns is also a common occurrence. There are no morals or conscience; only survival of the fittest in the pack or in another pack. I am not sure this primal training method is applicable in a civilized world. I thought this was a board geared for support of MI and folks with problems??
Posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
In reply to Re: Phillipa - Say it ain't so. » violette, posted by Maxime on January 4, 2011, at 23:38:03
> Again, I would like echo what Violette wrote. I have no desire to bully you Phillipa, or anyone else on PB. My only concern is the storing and dissemination of personal information.
> Yes, but you don't share the information with others. I don't find it creepy at all.You don't start gossip in Babblemail. You don't have someone approaching new members telling them to careful of you because go after men on the board. You don't have someone saying that you are lesbian to other members, even if it's not true.
If what you said is accurate, then the first sentence is adequate. The remainder has no factual evidence that I am aware of and has NOTHING to do with your original post. I see that by following the guidelines the INTENT is harmful and made to provide fuel for another lively discussion at Phillipa's expense. This IMO could be an example of passive-aggressive behavior.As violette said," I think bullying is singling out a person for just being themselves, someone who just going about their business, not harming others. People are just trying to prevent harm to themselves here, is all"
I think there is more than just self-preservation in the accusations.
Posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:42:59
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:22:28
> But I'd advise you to be wise. I wouldn't tell you to trust no one. There are a handful of people I trust, and one or two I trust completely. But for the most part, remember that any information you send to others can and possibly will be sent by them to others. If they send you information, don't pass it on. If you send them information, assume it will be passed on and interpreted in whatever ways the sender wishes. It will probably not be sent on in context. It's ok to engage in the activity of talking about others. You'd be a singular person if your discussions were never about acquaintances. But try not to say anything that you wouldn't want plastered on Babble or on the front page of the NY Times. Be kind. Be discreet.
>
> That's advice I'd give to EVERYONE.That is very good advice. I would like to add that if you are using Babblemail to gossip about others, chances are that the content of the Babble Mail will be forwarded to person in question. I have received many a Babble Mail where gossip about me, was sent to me by the person who received it. It hurts.
Posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:48:11
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
> > Yes, but you don't share the information with others. I don't find it creepy at all.You don't start gossip in Babblemail. You don't have someone approaching new members telling them to careful of you because go after men on the board. You don't have someone saying that you are lesbian to other members, even if it's not true.
>
>
> If what you said is accurate, then the first sentence is adequate. The remainder has no factual evidence that I am aware of and has NOTHING to do with your original post. I see that by following the guidelines the INTENT is harmful and made to provide fuel for another lively discussion at Phillipa's expense. This IMO could be an example of passive-aggressive behavior.
>
I still have the Babblemails in question ...that's a fact.
Posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:54:24
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
I will no longer be posting in this thread. I think that everything that had to be said was said. I don't want to continue harming anyone.
I don't know if you noticed my post to Phillipa
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/975905.html
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