Posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.. » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on March 6, 2005, at 3:33:30
> Which came first, politics or religion..
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> Well, um, It would have to be politics. Civilised man was around alot earlier than religion.. Laws were around in England LONG before Christianity reached these shores..
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> By religion, do you mean Christianity? Because Buddhism was around thousands of years before Christianity.<<<Actually, Christianity was here in the beginning. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? They lived in a beautiful garden and walked and talked with God the Father and Jehova. Eve disobeyed and chose to eat something that caused a physical change in her body, making her mortal like we are. Because of this they were separated from the presence of God, as we are, but they were able to now have children. Even though they could remember God's perfect teaching and were very intelligent, they were required to live out their days by faith. They never walked or talked with the Gods again. This is called the "fall". Jesus knew this was going to happen because it was part of God's plan, so before we were born he offered to be our Redeemer. To start with, after the fall, he communicated with prophets like Enoch, Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc, and had them write about it. In an experience he gave Moses the ten commandments, but first of all he gave him a greater law. Moses was gone a little too long (40 days) and by the time he came down from the mountain his people were partying and had created a golden calf to pray to instead of God, so god got mad and took away the higher law, replacing it with a lesser one, namely the law of Moses, which was basically an eye for an eye, etc. and the ten commandments found in http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm.
We pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ because it is through him we are saved, as he is willing to plead our case and make up the difference if we're not quite prepared to enter the presence of God when we die. No one is capable of perfection.
Adam and Eve had pure religion, call it Christianity if you want, I think it was called the Church of the Firstborn, but I'm not certain. They had many sons and daughters, and at least one of their sons left the church and became a murderer. Can you imagine how many millions would have been affected by this one decision, through no fault of their own? Many others left the true religion also. In fact the people became so wicked in the time of Noah, that God caused a flood and basically started over. From there things just kept getting worse. In a few short years some built a tower called the tower of babel, thinking they could climb to heaven, or avoid the next flood. Poor thinking. God confounded all the languages, and then everyone went on their merry way, by then, divided into the 12 tribes of Israel. Judah settled in Israel. Japeth went to Japan, they flocked all through Europe, and even America. Jared and his family in 1200 BC brought the pure religion, and animals and seeds, to America. Their life history is found in http://scriptures.lds.org/ether/1/1#1.
So, you see, pure religion was here before politics and also before all the variations of religion.
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> You said "Marriage is central to my religion,".. I think the word that needs to stand out in that sentence is *my*. Its only central to YOUR religion, not everyones..<<<<May I be so bold as to say marriage is central to pure religion? Pure religion is caring for the poor and the needy. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22pure+religion%22&search.x=28&search.y=4
Pure religion is loving your neighbor as yourself. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22Matt+22%3A36-39%22&search.x=31&search.y=10One by one, one person at a time, as they are touched by pure religion, gain a proper understanding of what it all means. If as you say, mine is the only religion that centers on marriage, a lot of you are coming over, one by one. It is god's way. Jesus taught and healed one at a time, always caring deeply for the individual. The same is happening today. If you don't know what i mean, let me remind you that at any given time there are at least 60,000 missionaries teaching about marriage. My son for one, has convinced couples who are living together to get married. I think that's big.
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> And ofcourse I don't think that all laws that match with, say a commandment, should be removed. I just believe that the bible was an early form of political statement.. A way to live 2000 or what ever years ago. But its now the 21st Century, and we have perfectly good systems of government in the UK, the US, Australia and other western countries, so, in my opinion, laws should be made, regardless of religion.
<<<<Hey, I agree. We do have good systems of government. And, as you say, the Bible was an early form of political statement, complete with an organized business plan for happiness and eternal life. You can find mission statements, vision statements, procedures, measures, and outcomes, or strategic planning and tasks however you choose to view it. If you want links I'll be more than happy to find them for you.<<<<<<First of all, before I comment on the following, thank-you for trying to help me understand some of the issues.
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> Civil marriage is a perfectly acceptable way for hetorosexual people to marry. Its a legal contract with NO religious involvement (Though I believe in the US, you can have a civil marriage that involves some religius aspect).. Why should that legal contract, in a legal context, be removed from a large section of the population, simply because they are homosexual.
<<<<It has never been removed if it was not given in the first place.>
> Why should a homosexual man not be able to make medical decisions, as next of kin, for his partner of, say, 20 years? Why should he not be able to take on his partners pension after his death as a hetorosexual person would be able to?
<<<<<Perhaps he should have that right. What about the person on his 5th companionship, that is only into its first year? I'm sorry I don't know, but do couples (2 people in one household) often stay together for life?
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> I'm speaking about it in a purely legal sense. I know that a religious marriage is about pro-creation, and I can completely understand why the Church and its members would be against religious homosexual marriage.
<<<<<thank-you. Religious homosexual marriage is a religious mockery of the term "marriage". It lessens its value. It absolves the couple from the responsibility of children and treats it as something sexually centered. When you mock God's laws, you mock God. If you want to be turned over to the buffetings of Satan for your whole life, mock God and see if you can get away with it. I personally don't think you (I) can.
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> You say "Rights and privileges can be offered, but they must be different, not entirely the same.". Why must rights and privileges be different? What rights must be different?
<<<<<If we knew those answers we could solve the problem. A gay couple has the right to be gay and live together. They have the right to be my next door neighbor, but they do not have the right to abuse my kids. I'm trying to remember back to when we had a gay couple living in our neighborhood. It was a long time ago, but as I recal we tried to include them in things, and help them get involved in the school system, but they revolted and tried to destroy it, and got funding for another school's bus to come into our town and pick up their kids. It was kind of ugly, but the community honestly tried to be fair and treat them as equals. They were two women and each had daughters the same age as my daughters. They played together at school, but i have to admit I was uncomfortable sending my girls over to their place at night for sleepovers. I don't think I ever let them do that. Do you blame me?
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> And why not call it marriage? My husband and I call ourselves married, and we called what we went through a marriage. No God involved, no religion. Just our love, and sharing that with friends and family, and making our future more secure within the legal frame work that constitues marriage.<<<<<<I am genuinely proud of you!
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> I, I admit, completely fail to understand what it is about homosexuality that it should be sectioned off from such a large part of what makes our society. But then, I was bought up believing EVERYONE is equal, and that everyone should be afforded equal rights, and that someones sexuality isn't something to fear. But I guess, even though I was bought up in a small town, my mum had a number of gay friends, that had been her friends since high school in the 1950's, so it was nothing out of the ordinary for me at all (and meant I was also the best dressed 5 year old in town *L*).
<<<<<When did being equal ever mean equal rights? There is always going to be poor and homeless, as well as rich and famous. Each person has their station in life. Some are here to be helped and others are here to help. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22D%26C+46%3A11-26%22&search.x=24&search.y=8
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> At the end of the day, love is love. And in this day and age, (the era of aids) I believe monogomany between any two people should be encouraged.<<<<<I certainly agree. So why not call it monogimony? (like matrimony) and make the law specific to gay "couples". give them a list of rights, if it can be agreed upon, which I doubt it ever could, and then enforce them. While doing this, lets also allow common law heterosexual couples these same rights and let them enter the contract of monogimony if they don't want to get married. Common law couples should also be entitled to certain rights, but not equal rights because they have chosen monogimony rather than matrimony. We can be equal without having to be given equal rights. As in Moses day, perhaps we can come up with a lesser law, but keep our higher law too.
Regardless of law, in my religion, any married person who violates their covenant of marriage is going to be excommunicated. Excommunication is an act of love because it opens the door wide for repentance and forgiveness, which is a wonderful gift from God. There is a God who lives and loves each one regardless of race or religion, and who is bound to live his part of the business agreement when we live our part.
I hope you feel my willingness and desire to understand and discuss this sensitive topic.
poster:rayww
thread:464602
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20050122/msgs/467657.html