![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 20:28:29
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 11:58:22
> > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
Ok.
> Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
Insulin is not treating the disease. The disease in in the pancreas. As you say, it is affecting things downstream.
If it works, it works. Right?
So, anyway...
> They "think" that it affects serontonin but not definite on how this occurs.
I don't know who you think "they" are. If you take a look at the more recent work on depression, you will find that there are many different areas of investigation. I don't think that most scientists conceptualize depression as being the result of a simple reduction in "serotonin levels". That is an old and primordial way of thinking. However, it is still a commonly used explanation of depression for the lay public. Nothing more.
> There is no specific serontonin test(that is a regular blood test, like one for blood sugar).
Well, actually, blood platelets contain neurotransmitter receptors and transporters. The binding of some of these receptors vary in depression and some anxiety disorders. Although there is no consensus as to which receptors yield the most consistent associations, I don't doubt that a test might be developed soon. Some are even experimenting with blood platelet characteristics in order to predict treatment response. So, yes, blood test may be possible.
A blood test has been in existence for over 20 years. Known as the dexamethasone suppression test (DST), it involves the measurement of cortisol in response to steroid challenge. I had it done in 1982 and I tested positive. This test probably fell out of favor because it did not detect all types of depression. It is unfortunate that it was not pursued as a test for treatment choice. My guess is that people who test positive to the DST are more apt to respond to certain drugs - TCA, MAOIs, and Effexor perhaps.
> So how can they "measure " the effectiveness of the drug???
You ask the patient how they are feeling.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:11:46
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 20:28:29
> > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
>
> Ok.
>
> > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
>
> How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
* Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
You want to get specific over upstream downstream, it doesnt matter as the chemical pathways are AFFECTED and not just the serotonin pathway.. that is my point and this is what worries me.
> Insulin is not treating the disease. The disease in in the pancreas. As you say, it is affecting things downstream.
***I know this but my point being we know that insulin regulates blood sugar and if the pancreas isnt making it properly or if the cells are not producing insulin then this is a DIRECT effect. this has been proven with SPECIFICALLY testing for insulin levels ... With mood disorders , etc, etc. they dont know what each receptor is responsible for.
>
> If it works, it works. Right?
****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
>
> So, anyway...
>
> > They "think" that it affects serontonin but not definite on how this occurs.
>
> I don't know who you think "they" are. If you take a look at the more recent work on depression, you will find that there are many different areas of investigation. I don't think that most scientists conceptualize depression as being the result of a simple reduction in "serotonin levels". That is an old and primordial way of thinking. However, it is still a commonly used explanation of depression for the lay public. Nothing more.
****Exactly my point .. they meaning all your scientists but mainly the docs who get these reports from drug company funded research. As you say they dont know ,, they are just speculating what they think may be happening.. and it is foolish to mislead the public/patient this way.. so many out there are buying into the theory that their serontonin levels are off.. maybe soo. but prove it I say.. and also why are they classifying the drugs as SELECTIVE SERONTONIN REUPTAKE INHIBITORS???!!!! falsy suggesting it is selective for serontonin only... not true.. it affects serontonin in the long run, (maybe)so they speculate but only after affecting many more signalling events in the cell... This is the fact here.
>
> > There is no specific serontonin test(that is a regular blood test, like one for blood sugar).
>
> Well, actually, blood platelets contain neurotransmitter receptors and transporters. The binding of some of these receptors vary in depression and some anxiety disorders. Although there is no consensus as to which receptors yield the most consistent associations, I don't doubt that a test might be developed soon. Some are even experimenting with blood platelet characteristics in order to predict treatment response. So, yes, blood test may be possible.Again my point.. if there is serontonin in other cells how can they possibly say that these a/d are affecting ONLY the neurotransmitters/receptors in the brain.. so in essence when taking the med it affects ALL areas of the body.. EVERY Cell.. Many other factors affect the binding of receptors from protein-protein interactions to recruiting of adaptor proteins, and the list goes on. Also the very genetic makeup of each individual is so different that one cannot say that the drug is specific for depression, anxiety.. one would have to genetically engineer a magic pill for every person/s genetic makeup and that simply is unrealistic I would say... and then you have environmental factors playing a huge role and the the persons age, weight, and sex and culture.. but do they consider these?? no and this again worries me.. Its a one size fits all.
They keep calling these drugs SELECTIVE yet they are NOT...With insulin it is only made in the pancreas... therefore will be targeted there.. thats the difference.
>
> A blood test has been in existence for over 20 years. Known as the dexamethasone suppression test (DST), it involves the measurement of cortisol in response to steroid challenge. I had it done in 1982 and I tested positive. This test probably fell out of favor because it did not detect all types of depression. It is unfortunate that it was not pursued as a test for treatment choice. My guess is that people who test positive to the DST are more apt to respond to certain drugs - TCA, MAOIs, and Effexor perhaps.
* And cortisol levels are controlled by the adrenal glands.. so there are many different causes for cortisol to be off.. even obesity.. , diet etc.. so this test isnt specific enough to justify messing with receptors in the brain and elsewhere in case it affects the mood.
>
> > So how can they "measure " the effectiveness of the drug???
>
> You ask the patient how they are feeling.
> * Again my point.. this is all subjective and very generalized.. Have you taken the Burns anxiety survey before.. its very biased and the other surveys they give at docs offices, psyche clinics all have very general questions which lead into into answering one way or the other,,, again to "FIT" the way they want the survey to turn out.. They only Give so many choices for the patient to check off.. so it boxes you in...not a true indication of the real you.. too generalized.
Also what one persons interpretation of a feeling depressed may be very different for the next person.. how can they summarize this accuratley on a survey..
>
> - ScottMusky
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 7:45:55
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:11:46
> > > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
> > Ok.
> > > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
> > How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.> * Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
I was just curious how you came to identify downstream pathways when scientist had not done so yet, that's all.
I think this will help a lot:
It is not the objective of medicine to understand biology. It is the objective of medicine to get people better. Very often, this means using a drug that it doesn't understand how it works. Actually, this has been the whole history of medicine up until the last 50 years or so. People couldn't wait around for biological science to figure out how penicillin worked when it was first discovered by accident. That wasn't to happen for many years. There are still many, many drugs for which the exact mechanism of action is not understood. Just open up the PDR and have a look. Should people wait around and die while these medical discoveries are researched by biologists?
Very often, people want to discontinue medication precicely because it has worked. It is not the proposition upon the initiation of drug treatment that it be for a lifetime. It is often agreed that a patient will discontinue drug treatment after he feels well for a certain number of months. Of course, we are going to see so many people wanting to discontinue their antidepressants. They worked.
> > If it works, it works. Right?
> ****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
As we could also say of psychotherapy.
Of course, there are treatment failures. 30-40% of people will need to discontinue their first drug to go on to a second drug. 30% of those will need to go on to a third drug or have drugs added as combination treatments. Still others who are extraordinarily treatment-resistant end up here. These people switch drugs frequently in a desperate effort to find something that works for them. This is unfortunate, but it is not unprecedented in the field of medicine. Even antibiotics are sometimes applied in a trial-and-error format.
That a series of drug therapies fail to treat an ailment does not prove that the ailment doesn't exist. I believe that my ailment is biological. There is finally overwhelming evidence to demonstrate this, in my opinion. Although I didn't need to see this proof, it does help to know that it helps fuel research into finding biological cures for a biological illness.
You are entitled to believe differently.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:42:43
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by SLS on October 2, 2006, at 7:45:55
> > > > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
>
> > > Ok.
>
> > > > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
>
> > > How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
>
> > * Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
>
> I was just curious how you came to identify downstream pathways when scientist had not done so yet, that's all.# I was using the term downstream to make a statement , not a conclusion.. thats all. As I work in a research lab that studies signalling events in a cell , it makes sense and yes there are upstream as well as downstream events.
>
> I think this will help a lot:
>
> It is not the objective of medicine to understand biology. It is the objective of medicine to get people better. Very often, this means using a drug that it doesn't understand how it works. Actually, this has been the whole history of medicine up until the last 50 years or so. People couldn't wait around for biological science to figure out how penicillin worked when it was first discovered by accident. That wasn't to happen for many years. There are still many, many drugs for which the exact mechanism of action is not understood. Just open up the PDR and have a look. Should people wait around and die while these medical discoveries are researched by biologists?# Well I think it better be the objective of medicine to understand biology after all, we are biological systems. And how can you get people better if you dont understand the biology of the system in the first place.. Using a drug that we dont understand exactly how it works or just plain how it works is dangerous.. giving people drugs and not knowing how it works is just using humans as guinea pigs.. Drugs need to be further tested. As for penicillin the proof was right there that it worked.. by killilng the bacteria in culture.. and they did find out how it works, they know the mechanism of action.
If you read the PDF manual as well most a/d that are in there they do not say how it works or the long term effects of the drug.. Im curious as to why they dont follow up on the thousands of patients that are on the drug.. LONG term I mean or follow up on patients that are coming off the a/d.. You never see reports of this.. hmmm
And no people shouldnt wait around and die while waiting for medical research,, but guess what they are already dying by drug hopping and overdosing and the sheer anxiety surrounding trying to find the right cocktail.. so we cant come to the conclusion that people will die if they wait for research.. there are alternatives to waiting... alternative treatments..
Another example is ecstasy .. it has killed more youths and caused more addictions.. yet it was a FAILED antidepressant.. so much for not wanting to wait and research the drug further.. no.. they wanted totry it right away... "save people from depression"" now look what it has done..
>
> Very often, people want to discontinue medication precicely because it has worked. It is not the proposition upon the initiation of drug treatment that it be for a lifetime.# Then why do so many doctors tell a patient they have to reamain on the drug indefinitely or for the rest of their lives... if its not the intention??
??//
It is often agreed that a patient will discontinue drug treatment after he feels well for a certain number of months. Of course, we are going to see so many people wanting to discontinue their antidepressants. They worked.
# Then why are there so many postings saying they want off because they didnt feel right on the drug.. you never see a post saying they feel great , so their stopping the meds.. they are saying that they cant stand the side effects and that they dont want to be on them anymore.or They are not feeling , thats the problem here.. no feelings/numb=translates into feeling well in a doctors perspective or to the family of the patient.. if they dont see you crying they think you are well. And if they worked then why are so many people trying more than one kind? I think its more it didnt work so WhY take the drug..
With penicillin it works because you take it once and then your done.. the infection is gone.. that bacteria was killed by the antibiotic.. you dont have to keep taking it .. and also usually your immune system does the job for you and if u are stressed or immune suppressed that is only when you need the xtra pencicillin/antibiotic. So with a/d it seems that people are on it for months /years and still feel/not right.. so this doesnt make sense to keep taking the drug.>
> > > If it works, it works. Right?
>
> > ****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
>
> As we could also say of psychotherapy.
# psychotherapy will work if u practice what yu learn... theres a difference between popping a pill and thinking... psychotherapy gets at the root of your thinking therefore getting the issue solved ,,not bandaging it up.
> ///
> Of course, there are treatment failures. 30-40% of people will need to discontinue their first drug to go on to a second drug. 30% of those will need to go on to a third drug or have drugs added as combination treatments. Still others who are extraordinarily treatment-resistant end up here. These people switch drugs frequently in a desperate effort to find something that works for them.# which again is my point.. the continued switching of meds is proof enough that this way isnt working for the patient.. why subject them to the continued anxiety and frustration of stopping and starting meds , not to mention the toll it takes on the physiological aspect of the body.. this cant possibly be healthy.. this in turn will affect the mind...
its like if you were making stew and just kept adding who knows what ingredient to get the taste"just right" and it just kept getting more and more stuff added into it, yet the taste just got worse and you couldnt get it right,, why would yu keep adding all the ingredients senslessly.. to me yu would throw it out and start with a NEW RECIPE or in the case of meds.. try other methods... not more meds.
This is unfortunate, but it is not unprecedented in the field of medicine. Even antibiotics are sometimes applied in a trial-and-error format.
## antibiotics dont mess with the brain/cognitive aspect of the person. and this trial and error is because there are more than one strain of bacteria out there. They dont know how the mood / chemical interactions work..
its like how can you know where you are going in a foreign country without a MAP??//
>
> That a series of drug therapies fail to treat an ailment does not prove that the ailment doesn't exist.#Oh the ailment exists allright, but the treatment is what is the problem..and I wouldnt say its an ailment, rather a manisfistation of a deeper rooted issue.. like i say.. there is more than one way to treat mood/ imbalances in the system. Alternative.. which just means OTHER THAN meds, etc.//
believe that my ailment is biological.#If you believe this then u have cornered yourself.. if you really believe you dont have a choice about your illness, then you have lost the battle.. Im not saying denial here, im saying just think outside the box..//
There is finally overwhelming evidence to demonstrate this, in my opinion. Although I didn't need to see this proof, it does help to know that it helps fuel research into finding biological cures for a biological illness.
## Biological cures mean natural not chemical and safer not harmful side effects.. have you noticed the black box warnings on the a/d rx these days?? Obviouslly there is a real danger out there. Especially to the adolescent population that are rx so readily too... increase in suicidal thinking and actions .. to me this is just another form of child abuse.. rx this stuff to teens.. again look at the ECSTACY drug hype.. Doctors "thought " it was safe..
>
> You are entitled to believe differently.
# yes I am as so are you.. enjoy your meds my friend.. and thanks for the debate.
After all its what we perceive as our own reality.. to me life is to be lived, not just exist... and thats what meds doo.. sure maybe they keep you alive.. numbed out but well alive...so this is something we should cherish???
like I said to each their own, but I hate to see the next generation after us all spaced out on meds all the time and not facing reality.
dont get me wrong.. I was down deep too.. very deep and if someone had said then to me just stop feeling that way i would have hit them too.. but on the other hand I needed to get tough on myself to survive.. yes you have to go through the emotions to heal, but there comes a time that you just have to get tough against the depression . anxiety.. and fight it not fear it .. ACCEPTANCE but not in a negative way like viewing oneself as a victim of mental illness, etc.. I dont like that term, I think of it as more of a dissarray of the soul, and we just need to be complete spiritually, physically, and emotionally. that is a journey we all take.
The very fact that they dont know alot about how the brain functions is all the more reason to PROCEED WITH CAUTION in the use of any meds affecting thought behavior.. ask all your drug addicts out there on the streets .Musky
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:17:00
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 3, 2006, at 1:42:43
I don't wish to continue a debate regarding the substantiation of biological psychiatry. I believe that it is inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board.
I do understand your concerns. I think we all wish that humankind had reached a point further along in the understanding of all things medical by now, but we have to do the best we can with what we have.
My only comment at this point is that many of the so called "natural" remedies are entirely chemical and should be treated with the same respect as any drug.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:17:00
> I agree, this is not a debate per say.. but seeing so many on this message board trying to get OFF meds is obviously saying something..
and the so called natural products are just that,natural... what the body will recognize much easier, hence no side effects compared to rx drugs. take your pick, side effects vs no side effects.. I know what I would choose.
Have you thought about natural products yourself?
Of course anything we take in excess can potentially harm us.. even aspirin, coffee.. so really what it comes down to is balance and safety. But I would much rather take my chances with herbs than rx a/d , anyday. There are numerous reports of deaths and damages done by rx drugs.. I have yet to see reports where someone died of overdose of a herb. You will see time and again about vioxx , celexa, aspirin, prozac, paxil, oxycondon- and others that are in the news with tragic outcomes. These are all chemicals processed in a lab with the vehicle to deliver them being just as dangerous. If you read what is in st johns wort for example(used very successfully in depression), u will see that it is just that and in a natural base ..So lets just agree to disagree here and I have just as much right to post my expieriences about withdrawl as anyone.. I am trying to help people get through withdrawl hopefully by posting here. this is the point we should all try to keep in mind...
If people are choosing to stay on their meds then they need to go to a different message board, or perhaps you could create a new one called, "staying on medication" or "choosing medication" .We need to support each other through withdrawl , not continue to have to go through withdrawl because we are on again off again meds...
Good luck to you
Im sure this will keep going in circles as long as the train of thought stays the same..Musky
I don't wish to continue a debate regarding the substantiation of biological psychiatry. I believe that it is inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board.
>
> I do understand your concerns. I think we all wish that humankind had reached a point further along in the understanding of all things medical by now, but we have to do the best we can with what we have.
>
> My only comment at this point is that many of the so called "natural" remedies are entirely chemical and should be treated with the same respect as any drug.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 5, 2006, at 9:32:35
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
> > I agree, this is not a debate per say.. but seeing so many on this message board trying to get OFF meds is obviously saying something..
Already addressed...
> and the so called natural products are just that,natural...
Botanicals are simply chemicals to be found in plants. Some can be harmful if taken in excess or in combination with other substances.
> what the body will recognize much easier, hence no side effects compared to rx drugs.
The body no more "recognizes" atropine from belladonna than it does from a IM vial.
Hemlock???
All I did was to offer a simple caveat regarding things labelled as "natural", not issue a doctrine of rejection against alternative treatments.
> Have you thought about natural products yourself?
Yup. Tried quite a few. Researched them too. Thanks.
> I have yet to see reports where someone died of overdose of a herb.
Don't make me Google.
Let's continue this on another board.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on October 5, 2006, at 16:25:53
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:04:06
Hi Musky,
I just wanted to thank you for the well wishes and let you know I've been feeling a lot better lately. Thanks for the reminder that it can be a long haul...
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 21:59:32
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by jules354 on October 5, 2006, at 16:25:53
>
No prob, jules... keep goin is all I say and it does get better,, I still have my times and freaky moods but they are much less.. sometimes the mood does deep alot , but i just KEEP my mind busy and it passes... thats all ive been doin, besides the detox and tryin to exercise. I also started a yoga class once a week.. helps relax the body and teaches you control.. could mental discipline.. I dont beleive for minute the doctors saying it is rebound anxiety crap//..its the body trying to balance from being screwed up on meds for soooo long..4.5months off remeron now and still managing.
take care
Musky
Hi Musky,
>
> I just wanted to thank you for the well wishes and let you know I've been feeling a lot better lately. Thanks for the reminder that it can be a long haul...
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 8:54:04
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 12:04:06
> it's pretty clear to me based on everybody's experiences on this board and in conversation with other people that discontinuation syndrome can definitely last a lot longer than the doctors say it should.
I agree. It seems to me that 3-4 months is not at all rare. I wish I had a better idea as to how long it is necessary to be on these drugs for such a long period of withdrawal to occur. I don't know that it should even be called withdrawal by that time. It is an unwellness or dysfunction that is residual to the changes the drugs make in the body. I think another word should be coined to describe it. I don't know.
- Scott
Posted by Philip N. on October 6, 2006, at 19:55:59
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
For many of us struggling with withdrawal it may be (as I am finding out) that we have to go back on the medication before making another run at it. I stopped cold turkey and had no idea about tapering and of the degrees that I may have to go to in that endeavor.Isn't that not a srategy that many are having to do as we become more familiar with all of this. I mean, if I'm on my back and not able to get up (even though my goal is to be off of the medication), wouldn't it be better to at least get back on my feet so I can work it again later. Simply because we may not succeed this round doesn't mean that our goal has changed. Therefor any strategy that will ultimately help someone who wants to stop should be on this board. I have struggled with not taking any medicine for the past 3 months knowing that stopping the way I did is not the way to go. So, for those who have succeeded IN WITHDRAWAL this is a good place to help others.
Philip
Posted by johnnyj on October 6, 2006, at 20:51:41
In reply to Withdrawal from long term antidepressants, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 8:54:04
Wow, good point Scott. I believe withdrawal is over for me, but something else is not right. It appears remeron made my ocd issues worse. I hope ship rights itself but I need to make a decision or a time frame because things are not well. If I could only sleep things would be tolerable.
I do wonder if a new med would help though? I am not quite there yet but I meet by pdoc on Monday and we will discuss things. I am seeing my illness is a new light after quitting meds. It is hard to explain but I feel at times that I had to go off meds to realize that maybe I really do need something to make this journey better for me. After doing some reasearch and reading it is obvious the drugs I was on were not for my dx. Too bad it took 15 years to get a dx that I feel is finally right.
Thank your for your insight.johnnyj
Posted by musky on October 7, 2006, at 0:22:07
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by Philip N. on October 6, 2006, at 19:55:59
>
I agree phillip.. stopping cold turkey is not the way.. Im surprised docs dont tell people this. I had to find out myself and through my acupuncturist that I needed to do a very slow taper.. remember these drugs do change the chemicals in the brain.. therefore it stands to reason that it will take a long time to change back..
Good luck and just keep trying.. and stay strong.
I think taper is the way definitely to go.. thats what I did and now im off 4 and a half months.. so far doing ok.. still not me yet, but I am being patient.. Iwas on Remeron for 3yrs... 1.5yrs plust taper of over a year .. total drug time + 3yrs)therefore expect it to take a while
MuskyFor many of us struggling with withdrawal it may be (as I am finding out) that we have to go back on the medication before making another run at it. I stopped cold turkey and had no idea about tapering and of the degrees that I may have to go to in that endeavor.Isn't that not a srategy that many are having to do as we become more familiar with all of this. I mean, if I'm on my back and not able to get up (even though my goal is to be off of the medication), wouldn't it be better to at least get back on my feet so I can work it again later. Simply because we may not succeed this round doesn't mean that our goal has changed. Therefor any strategy that will ultimately help someone who wants to stop should be on this board. I have struggled with not taking any medicine for the past 3 months knowing that stopping the way I did is not the way to go. So, for those who have succeeded IN WITHDRAWAL this is a good place to help others.
> Philip
Posted by SLS on October 7, 2006, at 2:29:01
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by Philip N. on October 6, 2006, at 19:55:59
> For many of us struggling with withdrawal it may be (as I am finding out) that we have to go back on the medication before making another run at it.
Does this indicate that you have reached a decision?
- Scott
Posted by jeninco on October 8, 2006, at 14:47:06
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants » SLS, posted by johnnyj on October 6, 2006, at 20:51:41
I hope you get some peace johnny. I know all people react differently to things, but I didn't have any of the symptoms you had when I went off remeron as far as the panic attacks/chest tightening going of for so long. I know there are debating feelings as to how long medication should affect you, but I personally wouldn't have been able to last more than 6 weeks of "giving it a try" med-free. If you need something else to feel normal and function, I don't think you should feel badly about it.
I agree that medications are too easly prescribed by doctors who really don't understand them, but I also believe there are plenty of people who do need medication.
I hope things improve for you soon.
Posted by musky on October 9, 2006, at 13:02:37
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » Philip N., posted by SLS on October 7, 2006, at 2:29:01
> >
that is exactly my point.. if we keep going back on the med because withdrawl is tough,, then we stay "stuck" at this stage.. That is the evil of withdrawl.. the body will create a "crisis" to get you to keep taking it.. just like heroine.
Have you tried acupuncture?/ it helped me.. but I was very dilegent in going.. 3x/week at the start and I kept going.. took me a total of 1yr of this .. less and less often over the year and I did get off the Remeron this way..
I had a very supportive acupuncturist who wouldnt give up on me.. He was very patient ..He gets people off of crack cocaine this way.. thats how powerful acupuncture is.
Try it if you havent already.. and maybe this will help you..
I never once considered to go back on the Remeron when I was really suffering..Take care
muskyFor many of us struggling with withdrawal it may be (as I am finding out) that we have to go back on the medication before making another run at it.
>
>
> Does this indicate that you have reached a decision?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by nutsandmore on October 10, 2006, at 11:49:43
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by musky on October 4, 2006, at 23:22:16
I agree, if this medications are so good then why are so many people wanting off them, and having bad experiences from them. When i went to the shrink, i was loosing my mind, i cant control my own thoughts, all i can think about are bad things, and sad things, i am in college and i have two kids, i needed something to calm me down. I just shake and cry all the time, i dont know how to get control anymore. After i told him, he put me on remeron, which has nothing to do with what symptoms i have. My brain does not need to be chemically and pemenanatly altered because i feel overstressed, i have to much on my mind, and to much to do and to little time. A brain altering drug should not be the first thing given. It looks like they would start you out on something mild and safe, just for control of anxiety, i do not need this crazy new synthetic drug, then when i told them it was killing me he said to keep taking it and i would get used to it eventually. That does not sound like a good doctor to me, he definately was not trying to help me, it seems that he was trying to kill me. Giving someone this drug that does not need it is not healthy, and i am appolled that he did it. I just dont know what to do i am so mad, i beleive that i will have to go to a new doctor.
Posted by Philip N. on October 10, 2006, at 13:01:19
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by nutsandmore on October 10, 2006, at 11:49:43
Is there anything mild and safe for severe anxiety?
Posted by musky on October 10, 2006, at 23:50:16
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by nutsandmore on October 10, 2006, at 11:49:43
> Nutsandmore:
Exactly .. I agree with you.. some doc.. first find a NEW doctor that will take the TIME to listen to you and not just drug u... sounds to me that you just need to chill and get a handle on your anxiety.
Try to calm your mind.. dont tell yourself that you cannot control your thoughts.. you can and you will. it just takes practice..
I did thesame thing and of course among other drugs i ended up on that damn Remeron.. anyways I got myself off of it . and used acupuncture as my aide.. and just alot of self determination.
I learned to pace myself more and reduce stress. Cognitive therapy helps alot if you havent tried this.. look into it.
I was rx drugs for wrong reasons i think and all i had to do was take control myself. I suffered alot of symptoms /side effects from these drugs. my anxiety levels hit the roof when on this stuff and it totally took away my reality and the ability to feel.. Now I am doing much better being OFF and i dealt with my health issues directly and stress levels directly.. I am totally off Remeron and I also got off ativan over 2yrs ago.. ON MY OWN plus acupuncture.. I feel better in myself knowing that I control my anxiety levels NOT the drug or the Anxiety controlling me.. Once you adopt this attitude you now have the power..Good luck
Musky
I agree, if this medications are so good then why are so many people wanting off them, and having bad experiences from them. When i went to the shrink, i was loosing my mind, i cant control my own thoughts, all i can think about are bad things, and sad things, i am in college and i have two kids, i needed something to calm me down. I just shake and cry all the time, i dont know how to get control anymore. After i told him, he put me on remeron, which has nothing to do with what symptoms i have. My brain does not need to be chemically and pemenanatly altered because i feel overstressed, i have to much on my mind, and to much to do and to little time. A brain altering drug should not be the first thing given. It looks like they would start you out on something mild and safe, just for control of anxiety, i do not need this crazy new synthetic drug, then when i told them it was killing me he said to keep taking it and i would get used to it eventually. That does not sound like a good doctor to me, he definately was not trying to help me, it seems that he was trying to kill me. Giving someone this drug that does not need it is not healthy, and i am appolled that he did it. I just dont know what to do i am so mad, i beleive that i will have to go to a new doctor.
Posted by musky on October 10, 2006, at 23:59:55
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by Philip N. on October 10, 2006, at 13:01:19
>
Yes!!!
try Acupuncture(it totally helped calm me down), herbal relax, bachs rescue remedy(its from herbs), meditation, positive self talk, cognitive thereapy, yoga, massage, self hypnosis, reflexology, exercise, and yes even sex! (that is if the med hasnt taken that ability away,,if this is in the picture).. anyways. these are some of the things you could try .. ALL are safe and take them from a reputable source(ie, a herbalist) or good health food store.
I myself have taken the above herbs (except for the rescue remedy).. and NO symptoms.. no addictive qualities.. It helped me when I was really struggling and no side effects... YES..try this
I know that my anxiety was worse when I was on amytriptylene , then really escalated when I was briefly on Paxil(really bad) , then a constant agitation/anxiety when on Remeron..I found what helped me the most of all the things was acupuncture..I have a very good one I see. but I only have to go monthly now(just maintenance) as I have gotten the drugs out of my system and have been on detox program.
if you are on some med, it may indeed be the cause of your anxiety..
I know you havent agreed with all my posts, but hey im just tryin to help man.. a safer way.
and you wont know if something will help unless you try it..and believe in yourself ok??
Musky
Is there anything mild and safe for severe anxiety?
Posted by joslynn on October 20, 2006, at 9:31:38
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants » johnnyj, posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 20:47:44
SLS, here is a question I have wondered about: As a general rule, how many weeks or months off a med until a person can conclude that depressed feelings are a recurrence of the original problem vs. withdrawal?
Since withdrawl and depression can feel similar, I wonder, if I were to try withdrawl, and if I feel depressed again, at what point would I say, keep trying it's just withdrawal, and at what later would point would I say, no it's the depression coming back, go back on those meds...?
(I am not antimeds per se, but would rather be off them than on. I have had recurrent episodes of severe depression in my life, but also long stretches of feeling good too.)
So if I were to try to withdraw, I just wonder, what time period should I give myself?
I do NOT want another severe depression. Yet I wouldn't want to stay on meds forever just out of fear, especially if I decide to have children one day.)
thanks.
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2006, at 11:35:49
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants » SLS, posted by joslynn on October 20, 2006, at 9:31:38
> SLS, here is a question I have wondered about: As a general rule, how many weeks or months off a med until a person can conclude that depressed feelings are a recurrence of the original problem vs. withdrawal?
I wrote something off the top of my head here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/wdrawl/20060809/msgs/693383.html
It makes some sense. I think the main thing is to watch for a trend.
I would like nothing better than to be able to live healthy and without the need for medication. I can certainly understand anyone wanting to experiment to establish whether or not they truly need medication or not. I guess it is a gamble of sorts. There is a risk that the same drug will not work as well once it is restarted. I don't think I would wait longer than 2 months if a depression is getting worse and not better.
I wish I could present you with something more definitive in the way of studies demonstrating the course of relapse versus withdrawal depression. I don't think it has been formally investigated.
One thing that I did read years ago is that for people who have chronic or recurrent depression, relapse usually occurs within 4 months of drug discontinuation. So, I guess if this has happened after two successive attempts to discontinue medication, one must consider indefinite treatment.
- Scott
Posted by musky on October 24, 2006, at 0:18:11
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants » SLS, posted by joslynn on October 20, 2006, at 9:31:38
>Hi joslynn
just read your post, and one thing that i have come across and is now in the latest findings are that the chances of a relapse is a lot less in people who receive cognitive therapy..
I have been off Remeron for 5months now, and still say that I would give it a least one year before I would say it wasnt withdrawl..
The medical community seems to be unclear that withdrawl takes a long time, not just a few weeks.. withdrawl encompasses the whole picture of the drug coming out of the body, PLUS the time it takes for the body's natural chemical balance to return..
If you can manage to get throught the depressive states long enough and avoid the meds, then go for it..
again this depends on your history.
They are now studying why people relapse,, they are finding that after a person is off the med and hasnt done any lifestyle changes and cognitive,or psychotherapy, then these people tend to relapse or get depressed again. usually the same people havent dealt with the life issues that have caused/contributed to the depressed state in the first place.
Hope this helps..musky
SLS, here is a question I have wondered about: As a general rule, how many weeks or months off a med until a person can conclude that depressed feelings are a recurrence of the original problem vs. withdrawal?
>
> Since withdrawl and depression can feel similar, I wonder, if I were to try withdrawl, and if I feel depressed again, at what point would I say, keep trying it's just withdrawal, and at what later would point would I say, no it's the depression coming back, go back on those meds...?
>
> (I am not antimeds per se, but would rather be off them than on. I have had recurrent episodes of severe depression in my life, but also long stretches of feeling good too.)
>
> So if I were to try to withdraw, I just wonder, what time period should I give myself?
>
> I do NOT want another severe depression. Yet I wouldn't want to stay on meds forever just out of fear, especially if I decide to have children one day.)
>
> thanks.
>
>
>
>
Posted by SLS on October 24, 2006, at 9:43:55
In reply to Re: Withdrawal from long term antidepressants, posted by musky on October 24, 2006, at 0:18:11
> I have been off Remeron for 5months now, and still say that I would give it a least one year before I would say it wasnt withdrawl..
As you stated, though, your depression, which began immediately upon the discontination of Remeron, had shown a trend of lessening by two months after discontinuation.
I think one must be careful in determining what kind of depression one is looking at. Not all depression is Major Depressive Disorder (MDD). It is probably a good idea that someone be evaluated by a professional to differentiate between a clinical MDD versus a depression that might be more treatable using exclusively psychological methods. If someone is clearly MDD, I think waiting a year before seeking treatment might be a bit too long.
Is restarting medication after 2 months of a progressively worsening depression premature? I guess that depends on the particulars of the case. Has the history of depression followed a chronic or recurrent course? Was the age of onset early? Is there any family history? How severe or impairing is the depression? How many medications had been tried previously and failed? What was the history of success to psychotherapy?
For me, the answers to these questions yield an answer to restart treatment immediately. For someone else, they might indicate waiting and perhaps trying psychotherapy first.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2006, at 11:09:18
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for, posted by SLS on October 3, 2006, at 8:17:00
> I don't wish to continue a debate regarding the substantiation of biological psychiatry. I believe that it is inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board.
I agree, let's have general debates regarding biological psychiatry at the main Psycho-Babble board.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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