Posted by musky on October 1, 2006, at 23:11:46
In reply to Re: Returning to antidepressants? Above for » musky, posted by SLS on October 1, 2006, at 20:28:29
> > > >First of all, diabetes and high blood pressure are KNOWN diseases.. they have blood tests SPECIFICALLY for measuring levels of blood glucose and blood pressure. The drugs developed for these conditions are SPECIFIC and then shown to work by further measuring these levels.
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> Ok.
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> > Antidepressents are NOT specific and affect MANY downstream pathways in the brain...
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> How do you know whether they are upstream or downstream? Scientists haven't decided that yet.
* Exactly my point .. they dont know ...
You want to get specific over upstream downstream, it doesnt matter as the chemical pathways are AFFECTED and not just the serotonin pathway.. that is my point and this is what worries me.
> Insulin is not treating the disease. The disease in in the pancreas. As you say, it is affecting things downstream.
***I know this but my point being we know that insulin regulates blood sugar and if the pancreas isnt making it properly or if the cells are not producing insulin then this is a DIRECT effect. this has been proven with SPECIFICALLY testing for insulin levels ... With mood disorders , etc, etc. they dont know what each receptor is responsible for.
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> If it works, it works. Right?
****If it worked we wouldnt have so many people still trying meds on and on.. and we wouldnt be here debating on this post.
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> So, anyway...
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> > They "think" that it affects serontonin but not definite on how this occurs.
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> I don't know who you think "they" are. If you take a look at the more recent work on depression, you will find that there are many different areas of investigation. I don't think that most scientists conceptualize depression as being the result of a simple reduction in "serotonin levels". That is an old and primordial way of thinking. However, it is still a commonly used explanation of depression for the lay public. Nothing more.
****Exactly my point .. they meaning all your scientists but mainly the docs who get these reports from drug company funded research. As you say they dont know ,, they are just speculating what they think may be happening.. and it is foolish to mislead the public/patient this way.. so many out there are buying into the theory that their serontonin levels are off.. maybe soo. but prove it I say.. and also why are they classifying the drugs as SELECTIVE SERONTONIN REUPTAKE INHIBITORS???!!!! falsy suggesting it is selective for serontonin only... not true.. it affects serontonin in the long run, (maybe)so they speculate but only after affecting many more signalling events in the cell... This is the fact here.
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> > There is no specific serontonin test(that is a regular blood test, like one for blood sugar).
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> Well, actually, blood platelets contain neurotransmitter receptors and transporters. The binding of some of these receptors vary in depression and some anxiety disorders. Although there is no consensus as to which receptors yield the most consistent associations, I don't doubt that a test might be developed soon. Some are even experimenting with blood platelet characteristics in order to predict treatment response. So, yes, blood test may be possible.Again my point.. if there is serontonin in other cells how can they possibly say that these a/d are affecting ONLY the neurotransmitters/receptors in the brain.. so in essence when taking the med it affects ALL areas of the body.. EVERY Cell.. Many other factors affect the binding of receptors from protein-protein interactions to recruiting of adaptor proteins, and the list goes on. Also the very genetic makeup of each individual is so different that one cannot say that the drug is specific for depression, anxiety.. one would have to genetically engineer a magic pill for every person/s genetic makeup and that simply is unrealistic I would say... and then you have environmental factors playing a huge role and the the persons age, weight, and sex and culture.. but do they consider these?? no and this again worries me.. Its a one size fits all.
They keep calling these drugs SELECTIVE yet they are NOT...With insulin it is only made in the pancreas... therefore will be targeted there.. thats the difference.
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> A blood test has been in existence for over 20 years. Known as the dexamethasone suppression test (DST), it involves the measurement of cortisol in response to steroid challenge. I had it done in 1982 and I tested positive. This test probably fell out of favor because it did not detect all types of depression. It is unfortunate that it was not pursued as a test for treatment choice. My guess is that people who test positive to the DST are more apt to respond to certain drugs - TCA, MAOIs, and Effexor perhaps.
* And cortisol levels are controlled by the adrenal glands.. so there are many different causes for cortisol to be off.. even obesity.. , diet etc.. so this test isnt specific enough to justify messing with receptors in the brain and elsewhere in case it affects the mood.
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> > So how can they "measure " the effectiveness of the drug???
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> You ask the patient how they are feeling.
> * Again my point.. this is all subjective and very generalized.. Have you taken the Burns anxiety survey before.. its very biased and the other surveys they give at docs offices, psyche clinics all have very general questions which lead into into answering one way or the other,,, again to "FIT" the way they want the survey to turn out.. They only Give so many choices for the patient to check off.. so it boxes you in...not a true indication of the real you.. too generalized.
Also what one persons interpretation of a feeling depressed may be very different for the next person.. how can they summarize this accuratley on a survey..
>
> - ScottMusky
poster:musky
thread:689668
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/wdrawl/20060809/msgs/690999.html