![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 10:16:43
In reply to Re: what I learned at family night (longish), posted by sunny10 on March 10, 2005, at 15:20:24
All right. I'll expound a bit. I'm probably not as good as the wonderful woman running the family night, but I'll try.
> > Anger is absolutely normal. You've been living with lies and cleaning up his messes for a while.
> >
> ---- So I'm not crazy for being mad that I was lied to??? Good to know...No, not crazy. In fact - from reading what you put out here and what I've seen in family - you barely even score on the anger meter.
> > If a stranger were to walk into the house he would think the user acted normal and the non-user was the crazy one.
> >
> ---------yes, I'm afraid I am being the crazy one...No, not *being* the crazy one. Just *acting* the crazy one.
>
> > While the user is addicted to drugs, the family member is addicted to the user. If you ask the family member 'what do you like to do' they usually can't answer you with anything they personally like. The user doesn't have that problem.
> >
> ----- Crap, once again you're right on; I have no hobbies except reading (sitting in a corner quietly... escapism from reality, really, more than a "hobby")Well then, first step to taking care of yourself is to develop some interests of your own. Or some together with your son. How old is he?
>
> > As part of the recovery process the family member needs to change also. Where before he had control of the bills, house, everything - he will need to learn to share that responsibility.
> >
> ---- Funny, I've been wondering when/if co-mingling of funds would ever happen. It used to really bother me that "he didn't trust me"... but, to be honest, the rent is getting paid, there is food on the table, and I'm not sure that I "trust HIM" enough for that now!Well, this is something that needs to wait until he's serious about quitting and has quit for a good while. Giving a cokehead control of money isn't a smart thing to do. You may as well make a bonfire of it.
And, for a cokehead, cash is the pocket is a huge trigger. Even if he has been clean for a while.
>
> > Trust is hard to get back, but it helps if the family member does allow the (ex)user to earn that trust back. The person in recovery also needs to realize that they earned distrust over a long period of time and it will not come back overnight.
> >
> -------- How do I learn to "allow it to be earned back" when I am completely paranoid now?? (Really, I am asking for your advice, here, not trying to be a wisea**...)I didn't think you were being a wisebut. This is the hardest thing to work on. You have a perfect right to be distrustful right now. And - it's not paranoia, it's a learned behavior, self defense.
Trust is a gradual thing, to be earned. When he does things to show he is trustworthy it will be necessary to *gradually* give it to him. It's a balancing act. For yourself, you will feel the need to keep your guard up and that is understandable. But there is a line between protecting yourself and harboring too much anger and wanting revenge.
I think for now that can be put back burner. There are other more immediate things to work on.
> >
> ----This hasn't happened... mainly when he HAS used, he is "having some alone-time"; basically, we are both in the house and he is ignoring me. HE knows now that I can tell when he's using by his facial expressions and actions, so now he avoids me for the whole evening (like I don't know now that THAT is the telling action!)Ha! You are describing me to a tee. I didn't go out and party at all. It was all at home. And I could down half a bottle of vodka, look hubby straight in the eye (I thought) and deny it.
> --- He has no messes other than lying and deceiving me. He is not an addict that misses work, falls down stoned, et cetera- just one that is alienating me.I didn't miss work either. But don't downplay the messes he is making. It isn't "just you" - it's his whole personal life outside of work. That's a pretty big mess.
> >
> ---The only way I can be "gentle and caring" in this example is to condone his actions; which I am unwilling to do...
>No, I disagree there. You should never condone his actions. But that is not the same as condemning hime personally.
If I were the lady running family night the things I would tell you to do (which you can ignore if you want):0) Start with calmly stating that you love him, but you hate his drug use.
1) Never, never try to have a conversation with him when he's using. You aren't talking to him, you are talking to the drugs and the addiction. Trying to reason with him at that point is a waste of time and breath. That is a good time to find something else to do that interests you. Drawing, sewing, gardening, talking on the phone with a friend, hanging with your son, etc.
2) Have a gentle, but firm talk with him sometime when he isn't using. Set a few reasonable boundaries. I would start with being sure your son is safe - have him agree to only use behind locked doors and to keep the drugs under lock and key. Present him with a locking box to put it in.
3) Tell him that it's the lying that you can't tolerate. The key to recovery is honesty. If you ask if he's using and he is you expect him to tell the truth. BUT - then if he *does* tell the truth, don't jump down his throat. Just calmly tell him that you don't condone it, but you appreciate his honesty.
If you are afraid you will lose it trying to say it, then write it down like a contract and give it to him.
Anyway, those seem small, but they are really huge. Running starts with baby steps, you know.
good luck - it's hard, I know.
(next post will be about some of the things you said to toph)
Posted by sunny10 on March 11, 2005, at 10:17:48
In reply to Re: just existing... » sunny10, posted by Toph on March 11, 2005, at 9:16:14
I'll just go live in Susan47's neighborhood!
I've been saving to go to Hawaii with the SO, but maybe if that doesn't happen, I'll use the money to move to BC! (Hmmm, but is it EVER warm there??? I really wanted to go live near a beach somewhere... Maybe I can talk her into coming with me!!!)
Daydreaming again... at least it makes me think of more positive things!
Posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 10:46:15
In reply to Re: just existing... » Toph, posted by sunny10 on March 11, 2005, at 8:35:19
> as I have been "abandoned" so many times, it DOES feel like everyone can't deal with me; that I am someone that no one actually wants to be with.
>That is something to look at. I don't know much about your past, but maybe you are somehow attracted to people that can't truly be there?
The family lady says 'your picker's broke' in that case.
Of course, it could just *seem* that way right now when you're in the middle of turmoil.
> I feel that he will ultimately choose drugs over me. And I know that if I ACT like a b*tch that he should leave- he will. A self-fullfilling prophecy at that point. So I am expanding great portions of energy fighting this feeling; hiding exactly how paranoid I am inside.
>Don't fight the feeling. Those feelings are boringly normal for people in your situation. Accept the feeling as valid and then work on making it feel better.
Nobody willingly chooses the drugs, but addiction is a powerful thing. It takes a full time commitment to get on the right road.
> Will I ever stop feeling paranoid? Will I ever even be able to "be sure" that he has stopped? CAN anyone actually overcome psychological addictions like cocaine which doesn't leave a chemical imprint for any longer than three days? Because he has gone more than three days without doing it only to do it again in a month...In order: Yes, no and yes. You can quit being paranoid. You can never 'be sure' he's quit for good - a really nice lady just went through the iop who had 23 years of sobriety and relapsed. It can happen. But you *can* learn not to live in fear of it.
Cocaine doesn't leave a trail in the blood for more than three days, but it takes a lot longer to work it out of the system. I've heard there are still residuals in muscle tissue, bone marrow, etc, that can take years to get out.
Paranoia? One thing you can learn (as has my family) that relapses do occur. It is only a failure if the person gives up and quits trying. My hubby says that he wouldn't be a bit surprised if I relapsed, but the only thing that would make him mad is if I started lying and denying.
Can it be 'cured?' No. But it can be put at bay. There's a guy in our group that had failed rehab several times - a crackhead to fit all stereotypes - ghetto, guns, the whole bit. He's got more clean time than me.
>
> Am I crazy for believing that the relationship will last any longer than the year and five months left on our lease? He says "yes", he says that he doesn't want to do the drugs anymore because his body is getting older and his health is becoming affected (sinus infections, loss of nasal tissue, inability to "snap back" after a coke binge, et cetera). And that he knows I am concerned for his health and our future. And that he doesn't want his money going up his nose...Ask him if he's willing to turn the money over to you to help him resist. It's so hard to resist with cash in your pocket. Tell him you're on his side and want to help - and if he asks you for control back in a sober moment you will give it back.
>
> Do I believe him? Can I afford to believe him? Am I a control freak because I don't want him to take "recreational drugs" in our house where my son could come upon him sniffing it up his nose (not to mention the health issues- do I want to plan a future with someone who may decide to "do just a little bit more this time" and die of a heart attack or stroke)? Is all of this MY issue and none of it his?Two issues. First - do you believe him. YES!!!! No addict wants to go on. But it isn't a matter of wanting, completely. The hardest thing to get through an addicts head is that it is *not* just a matter of willpower, and it is *not* a defect of character. The twelve steps don't all start with "we" for no reason. It *does* require that he's honest with himself and others and that he not be too proud to ask for help.
Hard to think of addicts as proud, but it's true.
He needs to get it through his head - to use an AA cliche - that his best thinking put him there and he needs to give that up and trust others.
The other issue is your son. I don't know how old he is, but it doesn't really matter. Kids of all ages - even before they can talk - can sense that something isn't right. There needs to be an age appropriate level of honesty there, too. If you tell him things are 'ok' he'll grow up thinking this is normal. You can say sick or something like that, but not 'ok.'
>
> I am just soooooo overwhelmed right now. On the one hand, I feel justified in wanting him to quit; because he says he wants to also, but on the other hand, I am concerned that after being controlled by others for so long that maybe now I'M the control freak.... I don't know what to think or which direction to turn.You have a right to not want to live with an active addict, but if you want to help him get well, don't try to control. It won't work anyway. Work on yourself so you are strong enough to be of help when he needs it.
I highly recommend "The Language of Letting Go" for you. It's daily meditations for families of addicts.
Posted by Susan47 on March 11, 2005, at 11:06:57
In reply to Re: if it DOESN'T last..., posted by sunny10 on March 11, 2005, at 10:17:48
No, honey, you come on over here and we WILL do Hawaii (live, eat, breathe, and swim, baby) together. Five years, say?
I have transferrable skills, now. I do believe I could work overseas ... heehee ...
I'm so sorry I can't help with anything else to say, Sunny. I've never been in your position...anytime I was with a drug user I used as well and we just had mega sex and a fab time BUT I was also a lot younger AND the drugs were very soft, mellow. You're in a totally different situation than I ever was. BUT I can tell you this, that "love" translated from a need to fill up can give you a lot of distortions in its' view ...
Posted by sunny10 on March 12, 2005, at 7:55:41
In reply to Re: just existing... » sunny10, posted by AuntieMel on March 11, 2005, at 10:46:15
> > as I have been "abandoned" so many times, it DOES feel like everyone can't deal with me; that I am someone that no one actually wants to be with.
> >
>
> That is something to look at. I don't know much about your past, but maybe you are somehow attracted to people that can't truly be there?
>
> The family lady says 'your picker's broke' in that case.
>
> Of course, it could just *seem* that way right now when you're in the middle of turmoil.
>
> > I feel that he will ultimately choose drugs over me. And I know that if I ACT like a b*tch that he should leave- he will. A self-fullfilling prophecy at that point. So I am expanding great portions of energy fighting this feeling; hiding exactly how paranoid I am inside.
> >
>
> Don't fight the feeling. Those feelings are boringly normal for people in your situation. Accept the feeling as valid and then work on making it feel better.
>
> Nobody willingly chooses the drugs, but addiction is a powerful thing. It takes a full time commitment to get on the right road.
>
>
> > Will I ever stop feeling paranoid? Will I ever even be able to "be sure" that he has stopped? CAN anyone actually overcome psychological addictions like cocaine which doesn't leave a chemical imprint for any longer than three days? Because he has gone more than three days without doing it only to do it again in a month...
>
> In order: Yes, no and yes. You can quit being paranoid. You can never 'be sure' he's quit for good - a really nice lady just went through the iop who had 23 years of sobriety and relapsed. It can happen. But you *can* learn not to live in fear of it.
>
> Cocaine doesn't leave a trail in the blood for more than three days, but it takes a lot longer to work it out of the system. I've heard there are still residuals in muscle tissue, bone marrow, etc, that can take years to get out.
>
> Paranoia? One thing you can learn (as has my family) that relapses do occur. It is only a failure if the person gives up and quits trying. My hubby says that he wouldn't be a bit surprised if I relapsed, but the only thing that would make him mad is if I started lying and denying.
>
> Can it be 'cured?' No. But it can be put at bay. There's a guy in our group that had failed rehab several times - a crackhead to fit all stereotypes - ghetto, guns, the whole bit. He's got more clean time than me.
>
> >
> > Am I crazy for believing that the relationship will last any longer than the year and five months left on our lease? He says "yes", he says that he doesn't want to do the drugs anymore because his body is getting older and his health is becoming affected (sinus infections, loss of nasal tissue, inability to "snap back" after a coke binge, et cetera). And that he knows I am concerned for his health and our future. And that he doesn't want his money going up his nose...
>
> Ask him if he's willing to turn the money over to you to help him resist. It's so hard to resist with cash in your pocket. Tell him you're on his side and want to help - and if he asks you for control back in a sober moment you will give it back.
>
> >
> > Do I believe him? Can I afford to believe him? Am I a control freak because I don't want him to take "recreational drugs" in our house where my son could come upon him sniffing it up his nose (not to mention the health issues- do I want to plan a future with someone who may decide to "do just a little bit more this time" and die of a heart attack or stroke)? Is all of this MY issue and none of it his?
>
> Two issues. First - do you believe him. YES!!!! No addict wants to go on. But it isn't a matter of wanting, completely. The hardest thing to get through an addicts head is that it is *not* just a matter of willpower, and it is *not* a defect of character. The twelve steps don't all start with "we" for no reason. It *does* require that he's honest with himself and others and that he not be too proud to ask for help.
>
> Hard to think of addicts as proud, but it's true.
>
> He needs to get it through his head - to use an AA cliche - that his best thinking put him there and he needs to give that up and trust others.
>
> The other issue is your son. I don't know how old he is, but it doesn't really matter. Kids of all ages - even before they can talk - can sense that something isn't right. There needs to be an age appropriate level of honesty there, too. If you tell him things are 'ok' he'll grow up thinking this is normal. You can say sick or something like that, but not 'ok.'
>
> >
> > I am just soooooo overwhelmed right now. On the one hand, I feel justified in wanting him to quit; because he says he wants to also, but on the other hand, I am concerned that after being controlled by others for so long that maybe now I'M the control freak.... I don't know what to think or which direction to turn.
>
> You have a right to not want to live with an active addict, but if you want to help him get well, don't try to control. It won't work anyway. Work on yourself so you are strong enough to be of help when he needs it.
>
> I highly recommend "The Language of Letting Go" for you. It's daily meditations for families of addicts.
>
>thank you so much for your input. I am working on the hobby thing for myself- and the "not talking to him about it" when I "think" he's using...(I say it that way because I am now paranoid that he is using all the time....
the cash in pocket thing is harder. He eschews credit/debit cards, and has always gone the way of cash and carry, so I can't even THINK of a rational way to ask him to NOT have cash in his pocket. Part of his pay is in cash, for instance.
he has also been a "victim" of gold-digging females so HE has a trust issue regarding co-mingling of funds, much less giving over control of it to me for the sake of quitting.
And, yes, he is VERY proud. He considers himself "an alpha male" in all ways- both positive and negative values; and is working on adapting his communication skills as he lived in the mountains with almost all males for the last twelve years...For instance, he communicates in ways that are intimidating to females (finger pointing, "in your face" confrontational debating, et cetera.) I have pointed out that he will never actually win a debate with me if he resorts to this behavior because I will either let him win or run from the room, depending on how afraid of him I am at that moment- and how "right" can you be if it's your behavior that ends a debate and not your facts??!!
He says that he loves me. He says that he wants to quit the drugs. He says he wants to win a debate based on the facts he presents rather than "brute force".
But after he has lied to me several times now, I am unsure when to believe him no matter WHAT it is that he is saying....
As far as the "broken picker" goes, I had come to believe that this was true and had given up on ever actually having a relationship again. I was actively "off the market" for quite some time when he came and "picked ME". He left his job and his home halfway across the country to be with me. I didn't ask him to- does that mean his "picker's broke", too??
If I could just get past the paranoia that makes my stress level go through the roof- palms sweating, heart racing, et cetera, I would be able to deal with things more rationally. Will that come within any reasonable amount of time with his pride such that he won't even talk about it? It's that pride thing you mentioned... I asked him to talk to me about how hard it is to say no everyday when his co-workers are snorting in the bathroom and when they ask him if he wants to buy some, et cetera, because I told him that I wanted to be able to help in the only way I could- by listening to him so he could vent his frustrations. He agreed to do it at the time, but hasn't said a thing since... this was a month and a half ago.
And that, of course, is why I feel that he ISN'T saying "no" at all....
How do you get a proud man to communicate "feelings", anyway???
If I can figure out a rational way to write that out, I'll give it to him. But I know that I am not being particularly rational right now...
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into my questions, Auntie Mel. I know that telling me how you were the "user" is difficult and that you are putting aside your own pride a little to help me. I cannot tell you how much this means to me...
He already has a lockbox- I think he actually uses it to hide the drugs from ME, but my son won't just come across them... My son chose to live with his father in any case (he's 13 and a half)... I am more afraid that when he stops over to visit (he is within walking distance and sometimes doesn't call first) that he will walk up to the back door and see my SO snorting up in the back of the house where he is hiding the using from ME! He has generally chosen his "den" at the back of the house or the basement to hide this use from me. Of course, now I am paranoid everytime he wants to hang out in his den listening to music (which he likes to do almost every night) or down in the basement lifting weights and exercising (which he does at least three times a week). Needless to say, my paranoia is peaked almost everyday! My bowels are a mess, my concentration even at work is shot, my hands shake, blah, blah, blah... I am sick of it.
I am becoming exceedingly angry with myself for even caring WHAT he does. But, then, I love him, so OF COURSE I care what he does to himself! It's a conundrum...
We are in a lease for another year and five months. Do I try to make the relationship work out for the long run, or do I just try to convince myself that he doesn't matter to me and just decide to ignore him and last through the lease?
I think that I wouldn't even be thinking along those lines if he would just be willing to let go of a bit of that pride so that we could at least TALK about what is going on. But even that sentence isn't good news, is it? It is co-dependent to even say "if he/she would only (fill in the blank) then I/we (fill in the blank).
Or have I just been doing too much reading and projecting stuff onto myself??? Am I just making all of tis harder than itneeds to be? Or is it really this hard but will work out?
That's the hardest part for me, I think, the not knowing how much of the problem is me and how much is just living with an addict...
Sorry I'm babbling (and sorry for the pun!)...
Thanks for reading if you actually got this far without walking away in disgust- which I would completely understand!!!
Posted by sunny10 on March 12, 2005, at 8:24:03
In reply to Re: if it DOESN'T last... » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on March 11, 2005, at 11:06:57
I'm not sure if I am perceiving what you wrote incorerctly, but I THINK you are asking whether it is really love or am I just trying to fill a void in myself. (And I HAVE done that in the past, so I am not upset by my perception of what you wrote, don't worry!)
As I just responded to AuntieMel, I didn't pick him, he picked me. I was not starting a relationship to fill a void this time. There wasn't a void ( other than the one most people suffering from depression have, I mean! You know, the "okay, I'm going to just try to make the most of this rotten life I'm stuck with" feeling!)
Will there be a void if this relationship can't be saved? Of course. I wouldn't love him if I haven't felt love and joy in our conversations, outings, and everyday living.
I have two things upsetting me right now. First is the lying and deceiving that comes with hiding drug use from a loved one. I feel betrayed. The second is that I fear for his health. I see how his body tries to adjust after he has used. The over-sleeping, racing heart rate, cold sweats, sinus infetions, et cetera. I know that his brother died at a young age (in his early/mid thirties- my SO's age now) froma brain anuerism (sp?). I know that his brother was also a user. I know that prolonged use of cocaine can result in brain anuerisms. If his brother died that way, isn't he also genetically predisposed to the same health issues? Don't I have a right to be concerned that the same thing will happen to him?
Do I "give up" on the relationship because he has lied to me, knowing that I will still care whether he lives or dies? Even if he chooses the drugs over me. Yes, my ego will be hurt, enraged even. But I will still love him.
At this point I am not trying to fill a void by attempting to keep his presence in my life- the void is actually very present WHILE he is in my life because of the deception. The betrayal has caused a void which needs to be repaired.
So the main questions running around in my head right now is whether
1) He feels the void, too
2) He wants to work on repairing my trust, and is trying to keep his promises of quitting for his own sake.But with him being the "proud type", he doesn't communicate any of what he is thinking with me.
And I am afraid to ask. If I ask it will seem like I am nagging (which, I guess, I would be....)
(By the way, our phone call cost nothing... it was just absorbed by my "minutes allowance"- it doesn't seem to matter that you are in BC and I am in the US! That means we can do it again.Yay!
I have wanted to call you, but my thoughts are so scattered right now it takes forever to even write/rewrite these posts!! And they probably STILL don't make any sense!)
Posted by Susan47 on March 12, 2005, at 20:40:20
In reply to Re: if it DOESN'T last... » Susan47, posted by sunny10 on March 12, 2005, at 8:24:03
Everything makes sense somewhere down the line, Sunny. Everything.
You're picking apart the relationship though, very carefully, like a little bird picking apart her nest.. I just had that image pop right into my head, just now, had to put it down....Fight, Sunny. For what you really want.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 14, 2005, at 15:34:01
In reply to Re: just existing..., posted by sunny10 on March 12, 2005, at 7:55:41
Sorry - I thought I answered this. {brain f*rt}
>
> the cash in pocket thing is harder. He eschews credit/debit cards, and has always gone the way of cash and carry, so I can't even THINK of a rational way to ask him to NOT have cash in his pocket. Part of his pay is in cash, for instance.
>
> he has also been a "victim" of gold-digging females so HE has a trust issue regarding co-mingling of funds, much less giving over control of it to me for the sake of quitting.
>Well, then that is a tough one. His success does depend on his commitment, though, and having cash is one of the biggest temptations.
Maybe if he could agree just to not carry it - and to keep it in his box?
> Will that come within any reasonable amount of time with his pride such that he won't even talk about it?Yes, and don't take it to heart that he doesn't talk about it (more on this in a minute)
>It's that pride thing you mentioned... I asked him to talk to me about how hard it is to say no everyday when his co-workers are snorting in the bathroom and when they ask him if he wants to buy some, et cetera, because I told him that I wanted to be able to help in the only way I could- by listening to him so he could vent his frustrations. He agreed to do it at the time, but hasn't said a thing since... this was a month and a half ago.
>
> And that, of course, is why I feel that he ISN'T saying "no" at all....
That is why AA says to get a sponsor. It is nearly impossible for *anyone* to explain it to someone who hasn't been through it. Male, female, young, old, independent, needy - it doesn't matter. If you're with someone who's been through it so much of it is understood already no explaining is necessary.
> How do you get a proud man to communicate "feelings", anyway???
>You can't. For sure not when he's still in the active using stage.
> I am becoming exceedingly angry with myself for even caring WHAT he does. But, then, I love him, so OF COURSE I care what he does to himself! It's a conundrum...
That's mostly outward anger turned inward.
The best thing you can do is take care of yourself. Break the pattern of the way things are now. Put down some boundaries that you need.
Don't ask for the world, just what you need right now. Like honesty. Honesty doesn't mean he should tell you what he's feeling, just that he doesn't lie.
Fellings and addiction can't really be used in the same sentance, you know. An active user *has* no real feelings. They are what the song says 'comfortably numb.'
> We are in a lease for another year and five months. Do I try to make the relationship work out for the long run, or do I just try to convince myself that he doesn't matter to me and just decide to ignore him and last through the lease?
>You say you love him, right? In my opinion it's too soon to give up on him.
But - remember that he'll have to do it on his own time and nothing you do can change that.
You didn't make him. You didn't break him. And you darn sure can't fix him.
> I think that I wouldn't even be thinking along those lines if he would just be willing to let go of a bit of that pride so that we could at least TALK about what is going on. But even that sentence isn't good news, is it? It is co-dependent to even say "if he/she would only (fill in the blank) then I/we (fill in the blank).
>Again - if you can stick to the facts and not ask him for feelings you might have a getter shot at talking.
> Or have I just been doing too much reading and projecting stuff onto myself??? Am I just making all of tis harder than itneeds to be? Or is it really this hard but will work out?
>All of the above. smile.
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 16:34:39
In reply to Re: just existing... » sunny10, posted by AuntieMel on March 14, 2005, at 15:34:01
Have you tried Al-Anon? There are meetings everywhere and you will find like-minded people. If he really is an addict there is no amount of begging, pleading or nagging that is going to make a bit of difference. It has nothing to do with you--it's between him and his addiction.
Don't mean to be harsh but no one could make me stop drinking; it was up to me.If you're making it more about you, get some help dealing w/him.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 17:37:41
In reply to Re: just existing... » AuntieMel, posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 16:34:39
Posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 8:06:22
In reply to Re: just existing... » AuntieMel, posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 16:34:39
I finally "snapped" yesterday from the stress- accused him of using; he swore he wasn't and was angry with me for "bringing this up out of nowhere". He truly had no idea that I was freaking out for over a week.
I think that I have become co-dependent. I try to take care of him more than I take care of myself and since I "can't solve his problems for him", it is, of course, an exhausting an fruitless battle that no one wins...
I picked up a couple of books on how to take care of myself and build some of those boundaries you ladies were talking about.
I hope I can count on you guys 'cause I know I'll have questions!
I love you guys!
Posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 8:42:51
In reply to Re: thanks, AuntieMel and antigua, posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 8:06:22
Well, hopefully you relieved some of the pressure on yourself by snapping. Sometimes it really helps. Just remember, as much as you would like to, you can't believe everything he says--it's his addiction talking and he'll say anything if he thinks it will keep you off his back. That said, he may be speaking the truth--it's so hard to guage, and it can be quite a heartache.
I'm glad you're going to take care of yourself first. Try not to think of this as a battle of how much he loves or cares for you--try to keep a perspective on your own feelings.
best,
antigua
Posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 12:32:11
In reply to Re: thanks, AuntieMel and antigua » sunny10, posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 8:42:51
put myself first;that's something I have NEVER managed to do...
After on again/off again therapy over the past twenty years, I STILL manage to lose myself in EVERY relationship. Doesn't matter whether it's a sexual relationship or not...My "caring" always leads to "rescuing", which is impossible and I am always hurt- by ME!
My SO's and T's over the years have always thought that I hated myself and that's not true... I never cared enough about myself to HATE-hate is an emotion that takes energy and I have been told time and time again that I am not really worth the energy...Therapists tell me that I simply have to "cope", but no one ever tells me how to learn to live and not just "cope with life". Even THEY want me to just please them. SO's tell me to "get over it and grow up" to please THEM. My current SO asked me last night if I will ever feel any better. Begs the question, "does he want me to be happy, or am I just too much work and he wants to know when he can expect to stop dealing with outbursts".
Now twenty years and four hospitalizations later, I AM beginning to hate myself. Everyone keeps telling me that ALL of my "problematic relationships are my fault" due to "faulty programming or the inability to pick any good people in my life" but that I should just "use the coping skills I've been taught and I'll stop hurting other people with my suicide attempts"and "finally pick a good person"...
First of all, the coping skills work to "keep others happy with me", but if my problem has always been having to please others (and it is impossible to please someone ALL the time)have I REALLY gotten anything out of therapy???
Second of all, the skills are just more exhausting work and after years, then months, now (apparently) weeks, I explode from all of the pressure of "using the skills- no matter what I feel because I logically know that the feelings are wrong". I am getting old-er and tire more easily. I'm not old, but I'm not twenty anymore, either.
I read your "when is enough enough" post and I must say that I've been thinking that a lot lately- and not just about therapy.
I've been doing a lot of reading and the more I read, the more I sound like a codependent borderline personality. Or maybe I'm just a hypochondriac, or maybe I'm just plain crazy!!! Not all of the traits belong to me, but a lot do. But then, so does BiPolar, Unipolar [what's the difference between a hypomanic (erratic behavior)episode and flipping out when the energy for coping skills runs out, anyway?], now parts of NPD, too, from "abusee becoming abuser" due to lack of anger-management skills (at which point does major depression and suicide ideation become manipulation; even if it is not just a threat?).
I am a beast, apparently, not fit to relate to ANYONE. Or, at least that's what the reading tells me!
What's left for me to think?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 14:23:20
In reply to Re: antigua (poss trigger), posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 12:32:11
What's left for you to think? That you got the wrong books, that's what.
We can all find symptoms in ourselves of *any* disease on the face of the earth.
It's good to use coping skills - to a point. When you are using them to deny a part of yourself .... well it aint gonna get you anywhere for long. They are for situations, not as a replacement for your own personality.
Your problematic relationships are your own fault??? How on earth could "everyone" or anyone know that? Are they with you 24 hours a day?
Number 1 is taking care of yourself. Let that start by telling yourself that you aren't faulty and "they" are full of poo.Did you get the book I recommended? It won't tell you "what is wrong with you" or "how to help yourself" or any of that other stuff that sells books. What you'll get is a short daily reading that will give you something to ponder for the day.
Posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 14:45:30
In reply to Re: antigua (poss trigger) » sunny10, posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 14:23:20
by Beattie, right???
I got a couple... CoDependent No More and I can't remember the title of the other, but it is a "letting go" one, "taking care of yourself and not trying to control others" (or something along those lines)...
I haven't had a chance to read any, yet...
I wasn't referencing the books- just venting some of how overwhelmed I feel and that I am really unsure about which "type" of self-help I need first!!!!
(And if I am worth any more effort- when exactly IS enough,enough...)
Posted by Susan47 on March 15, 2005, at 21:53:23
In reply to Re: antigua (poss trigger), posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 14:45:30
Sunny, do you hear how bad you feel about yourself right now? Of course you're worth it, how could you ever even say that? You get your keester to a T right now, and pick a good one, damn it. None of this, "It's your fault" crap, "You're choosing the wrong people for a reason". Uh-huh. So find someone who knows what the hell to do about that, and model self-esteem for you.
Sheesh, you're beginning to sound like the old Me. Scary, scary scary.
Posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 22:48:52
In reply to Re: antigua (poss trigger) » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on March 15, 2005, at 21:53:23
Listen young lady, YES!!! you are worth it. I think I've spread my despair around here lately and I could just kick myself.
I don't think the question should be if you are worth it. I have no doubt that you certainly are. I know that I am, but I am so afraid that my pain will overpower me and do me in, almost inadvertently. The suggestion of quitting therapy is about giving up so I can save myself, my life. Twisted, I know.
First thing you need is a stuffed animal to hug when you start feeling scared, lonely or out of control.(Toys 'R Us has some great bunnies for $9.99). Music is necessary to calm yourself down, maybe some of that whale stuff that's supposed to soothe your soul. (help, anyone?) And of course, fallsfall always recommends ice cream; she can offer tips on that. I think partlycloudy has a few unfinished craft projectsto keep your fingers busy.
Try to get outside of yourself. Find a T. Don't take the responsibility for all of this on yourself. I still recommend an Al-Anon meeting.
Hope I haven't offended anyone. I'm not the humorous type,
antigua
Posted by sunny10 on March 16, 2005, at 7:51:43
In reply to Re: antigua (poss trigger) » Susan47, posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 22:48:52
If it's true that I am a codependent personality, then the situation I'm in is as much my fault as it is my SO's. That's fact.
Antigua, I was feeling this way all by myself, your post didn't "get me going"- as a matter of fact, it helped me to know that you guys are out there either feeling like I do or have felt like I do.
I have thought about an Al-Anon meeting- I have already looked them up in my area. Hmm, not a lot in my area, either!!! But the truth is, either I figure out how to be me and leave them (family and SO) to figure out how to help themselves or I figure out that this is, indeed, as good as it gets and bail. I just can't stand the hardwork and daily pain of it all anymore. I need to deal with MY problems, not his.
Twenty-one years of this crap is exhausting and I really can't even stomach the thought of another thirty,forty, or fifty of it until I die of natural causes.
That's not a life. Not one worth living. And if anything brought this line of thinking to light, it is what's going on with my father. He knows quality of life vs quantity. He chooses quality and it is understandable because he is eighty- the doctors may not agree, but they understand. I chose quality and because I'm 37, society labels me "selfish" and nobody understands. They immediately tell me to use meds- become someone else that is "acceptable"; mostly because I become numb and quiet. The feelings are still inside, but the meds keep me quiet, sleepy, and docile, so no one has to "deal with me". And the sleepy minded person is not me.
Having said that, I hope you guys understand that I AM going to read the books. I AM going to exert that energy one last BIG time (and more than one book, more than one author) to figure out how to feel like a worthwhile person.
I am going to give up even trying to figure out other people right now (and sorry, but that means babble, too). I'll be with you in spirit and even reading posts and trying to offer words of love, but I have to try to stop "helping". Because I've been helping other people to keep away from dealing with my own issues.
And, selfishly (sorry), I am going to throw one more question out to you guys.
How do I "experience and get past" (writing down and telling stories until it doesn't hurt to think about it- desensitization they call it) if I can't remember much of anything?
It's supposed to be a pivotal part of codependent AND borderline recovery... but I only have a basic outline of a memory. How does one "remember" emotional abuse and neglect? The neglect is non-action, thus no "memory" and the emotional abuse I ran from (to my room, out of the house, to my friends' houses, et cetera) and apparently buried the actual incidents because I can't remember WHAT I was running from, exactly...
Eeeeekkk. If I can't remember, does that mean I can't get better?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 13:12:18
In reply to Re: Susan47 antigua (poss trigger), posted by sunny10 on March 16, 2005, at 7:51:43
> If it's true that I am a codependent personality, then the situation I'm in is as much my fault as it is my SO's. That's fact.
>Ok, so if you are - and I'm not saying you are - you can still help yourself. You can still heal yourself. I personally think codependent is just an overused label.
>
> I have thought about an Al-Anon meeting- I have already looked them up in my area. Hmm, not a lot in my area, either!!! But the truth is, either I figure out how to be me and leave them (family and SO) to figure out how to help themselves or I figure out that this is, indeed, as good as it gets and bail. I just can't stand the hardwork and daily pain of it all anymore. I need to deal with MY problems, not his.Either leave them or accept it? How about a third option. You can come to terms with it while healing yourself, which will make you stronger so you can be supportive if and when they decide to help themselves.
>
> Twenty-one years of this crap is exhausting and I really can't even stomach the thought of another thirty,forty, or fifty of it until I die of natural causes.
>
> That's not a life. Not one worth living. And if anything brought this line of thinking to light, it is what's going on with my father. He knows quality of life vs quantity. He chooses quality and it is understandable because he is eighty- the doctors may not agree, but they understand. I chose quality and because I'm 37, society labels me "selfish" and nobody understands. They immediately tell me to use meds- become someone else that is "acceptable"; mostly because I become numb and quiet. The feelings are still inside, but the meds keep me quiet, sleepy, and docile, so no one has to "deal with me". And the sleepy minded person is not me.
>I don't know what the 21 years were or anything about your father so I can't say anything about that.
But what the heck is wrong with chosing quality of life at any age? And if taking care of yourself is considered selfish .......... sorry, can't use those words on babble.
If you care to email me my email is also my posting name and I am on gmail dot com.
>
> How do I "experience and get past" (writing down and telling stories until it doesn't hurt to think about it- desensitization they call it) if I can't remember much of anything?
>
> It's supposed to be a pivotal part of codependent AND borderline recovery... but I only have a basic outline of a memory. How does one "remember" emotional abuse and neglect? The neglect is non-action, thus no "memory" and the emotional abuse I ran from (to my room, out of the house, to my friends' houses, et cetera) and apparently buried the actual incidents because I can't remember WHAT I was running from, exactly...
>
> Eeeeekkk. If I can't remember, does that mean I can't get better?No it doesn't. I'm sure you remember the feelings without remembering the details.
Once I finally started trusting my therapist I started telling him about the emotional abuse I got from my father. No one thing isolated would be considered all that bad which always made me wonder if I was over-reacting. But I listed them, didn't expound on them at all, just the facts, one after the other, never repeating, just listing.
It took weeks. And I know I did'nt remember them all. But I finally felt in my gut that by gosh I *was* abused.
In AA one of the steps is to write down all your resentments, large and small, what happened and how it felt. For most people it takes pages and pages. After that you are supposed to read it aloud so you and another person can hear it. It really does help. After I did it with my therapist I felt like it was in better perspective and I could start to let go of the pain.
Posted by antigua on March 16, 2005, at 16:43:40
In reply to Re: Susan47 antigua (poss trigger), posted by sunny10 on March 16, 2005, at 7:51:43
Not remembering better not mean you can't get better or I'm in big trouble. I've had much huge progress w/o a ton of memories to grasp on to.
Take care and give it a shot.
As to writing, just write whatever comes into your head. It doesn't have to make any sense, it's not being graded and there is no right or wrong. Later you may find a pattern and discover beautiful things. Just write what you do remember.
best,
antigua
Posted by Susan47 on March 16, 2005, at 20:27:44
In reply to Re: Susan47 antigua (poss trigger), posted by sunny10 on March 16, 2005, at 7:51:43
I had the most incredible session with my new therapist today, remember I'm going to "do" EMDR? We're not actively doing it yet, and it's okay because some other stuff came up on my assessment inventory or whatever the heck they call that thing I did. Anyway we ended up talking about stuff I wanted to scream at her "Quit, I QUIT, I'm NOT doing this, it means NOTHING to me, DROP IT" because she was asking me about my life. You know, mother, father, how many siblings, brothers, sisters, ages, blah blah blah ad nauseum, who's still alive who did you know, a real snapshot of my life at 18, and it was gross, I mean, I had to NAME NAMES you know, all those details I hate giving anybody, and I was thinking, I had to fight the thoughs, actually, that this was a waste of time because I really don't want to talk about any of this stuff. And do you know what? In about 45 minutes that woman confirmed every thought, every intuition and every insight I thought I had in the last year but didn't trust myself to know. And there was stuff in the telling that didn't feel important, but WAS. Wahoo!
Sorry to ramble on.
Posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 9:30:28
In reply to Re: Susan47 antigua (poss trigger) » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on March 16, 2005, at 20:27:44
I also believe that codependent or love addict is just a label...but if that's what they're calling when the abused becomes the abuser, then that's what they're calling it. I do not aspire to be an abuser in life. That's unacceptable to me.
When I mentioned "leaving them to figure out their own problems", I meant leaving them alone- no crying, no begging, no nagging, no anxious outbursts, et cetera... not necessarily leaving them physically. I suppose it's not coincidental that I am willing to physically leave my family of origin who sculpted me, and helped to create my now innate reactions to stressors. But I should not leave the person who became my victim. It's time for me to make my amends to my victim as my family will not make theirs to me; their victim. I have to be the "big" person, here, and offer my apologies even though I have not received any- because the fact is that I probably never will receive any! I don't want to become them.
Codependent or not, love addicted or not, or whatever label anyone wants to apply to what I have become- none of that is my SO's fault. Yes, he is having a harder time than he thought (and thus I thought), but my reaction to it has more to do with the way I've been trained to think(family or origin AND self-nurtured hatred;I'm not interested in placing blame). He's not entirely blameless, but it's not his fault that I react the way I do. It's his own reactions that are his problem, not my reactions.
I've been giving a lot of thought to my internal dynamics at the time when I "let him into my life". I was on my own. I was taking care of myself, I was working, I had the same stressors as any other human and was working on dealing with them by myself. I didn't "need" another relationship. I didn't want anyone to rescue my as I have in the past. I was stronger, allowed myself to have fun and be fun, and I wasn't taking sh*t from anyone. We had months of happiness. But as soon as he ignored me and deceived me in order to do drugs, I freaked out. I started checking his pants pockets to prove to myself that I wasn't crazy for thinking he was using all the time; basically acting suspicious and hateful night and day- no wonder he was pulling away from me and he used yet again! He admitted that it happened again because he does have an underlying fear of commitment- but I wasn't making "commitment" a very positive idea, was I? (unless of course we're talking about institutionalizing me!)
His fear brought MY own fear of abandonment into my line of thinking and I started punishing him for "hurting me".
I'm not saying, at all, that everything was my fault. He is not a good communicator, he uses drugs which scares me, and he pushes MY buttons as revenge when I am hurting him- then I do it right back... a never ending cycle.
So I have decided that I cannot change whether or not he snorts stuff up his nose. I CAN change how I act and REACT to him.
And perhaps if we can relax in one another's company (by me not allowing myself to perpetuate stupid arguments), we can start over and fix our feelings about the other. Maybe I can be fun again and maybe he will become too busy being happier in our relationship that at least one urge to snort(because his spirits need lifting- he has admitted to self-medicating) will dissipate.
That is not to say that I am resposible for his feelings and can MAKE him stop this way- but at the very least I will take "me being part of the problem" out of the equation.
If things don't change, and I have made all of the changes that I can, I will have to re-evaluate whether the relationship as a long-term thing is a good idea for me or not.
But I can't make that decision without at least doing my part. Whether he picks up the ball and runs with it, too, will be up to him.
In August, we plan to start looking at the practical aspects of moving to Hawaii. Transporting my vehicle, his motorcycle, et cetera. At that time, I will find out WHEN these plans must be cemented (monies paid, et cetera). That will give me my timeframe as to when I will decide whether I feel he has shown the willingness to improve our relationship, too. I cannot afford to lose money if this relationship won't survive.
I think that is what other people were talking about on the pyschology board thread about accepting. I am accepting that I have made mistakes, too. I am accepting responsibility for my part in our problems. I accept that I have to make changes in myself. I am accepting that I cannot change him (and that, frankly, I wouldn't want to. Part of what makes me love him is the strengths of his convictions. He says his goal is to stop using- if his convictions are as strong as I believe they are, he'll stop on his own- it's drugs; hard to stop; he's human, he won't be able to beat it right away. If they're not strong enough to beat the drugs, or accept help in beating them, then I have to accept that I was wrong about him.)I do not accept being a "slave" to a drug user for the rest of my life. I accept that if that is what he chooses to be, I will have to move on.
Does that sound better? I am doing reading to allow myself to remain calm and to learn how to deal with my internal anger so that I don't allow myself to blow up again. If I continue to do the reading (and do some of the exercises), I should be able to train myself to stay in the moment and stop reacting with fear/anger left over from my childhood. This, too, will take time and I am human, so I will have slipups, just like he has. Any habit is hard to break.
Wish me luck and let me know if you think I need to look at something another way. I admit to succumbing to "tunnel vision" from time to time and I need to change that, too! That's where the suicidal thinking comes from... In the moment, in the moment, in the moment... that's my current mantra...
Posted by AuntieMel on March 17, 2005, at 12:37:26
In reply to Re: Susan47, antigua, AuntieMel (very long), posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 9:30:28
Those were exactly the things I was talking about it, but you worded it much better.
Of course I wish you the best of luck with this. It isn't easy at all, I know, but it sure sounds like you're thinking straight and headed in the right direction.
Posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:47:04
In reply to Re: Brilliant! » sunny10, posted by AuntieMel on March 17, 2005, at 12:37:26
I have the plan- I'll include you in my posse of support!!! You're not responsible for my success/failure, of course- I'm just happy that you are willing to be a sounding board!
I used all of your references and web searched 'em to gather lots of other ideas, too, so thanks for offering me the high dive to jump off of- the water's great in YOUR swimming pool!
I'll change my watering hole from dark, cold and murky to one like yours- warm, inviting, clear and refreshing!! And I don't need no stinkin' pool boy to do it FOR me either; though he can frolic in it with me when I'm done if he wants!!!
You guys have been a Godsend yet again...Thank you for all of your support!!!
Posted by AuntieMel on March 22, 2005, at 14:19:03
In reply to Re: Brilliant! Everyone and » AuntieMel, posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:47:04
This is the end of the thread.
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