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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on October 9, 2004, at 17:32:52
In reply to 12 step programs, posted by Cass on September 27, 2004, at 17:40:24
> 12 step programs require that members find their "higher power" and surrender to that higher power.
<<< 12 step programs freely "suggest" in step three that we "turn our will and our life over to the care of a higher power, we choose to call God". However, "requires" is never mentioned in the Big Book of "Alcoholics anonymous", always "suggests".
<<< History:
1. 16 years of meetings; 750+ Adult/Children of Alcoholic Households; 150+ Overeaters Anonymous; 75+ Alanon; 20+ AA speaker meetings, simply because so much goes on, the stories are so great, and the speakers are so entertaining.
2. Hearing 5,000+ stories, many more than once, has given me a unique glimpse into dysfunction as an archtype behavior.
3. My "turn-it-over-day" was July 5, 1987 at about 3 pm. I had just run my first 1/2 marathon, and I was also ready. It took me two years before I could do my fourth and fifth steps with my sponsor (and friend, Bob A.).<<< Relevance to Babble: You bet! I wouldn't be here, I'm sure of it. I might even be dead and forgotten instead.
<<< Emotions Anonymous has been struggling to help dysfunctionals, whereas I have felt most at home in ACA (aka ACoA). CoDA is also close to the core issues, but lacks the Alanon guidance I found in ACA (one of Alanon's successful offspring programs). Read Claudia Black's book, "It Will Never Happen to Me". You may find yourself relating. Also, "Adult Children of Alcoholics" by Janet Woititz, or "Healing The Shame That Binds You" by John Bradshaw.
Seek Serenity.....
Rod
Posted by Cass on October 9, 2004, at 18:30:21
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » Cass, posted by 64bowtie on October 9, 2004, at 17:32:52
Hi 64bowtie,
Thanks for the clarification on requiring vs. suggesting members find their higher power.
I'm going to see if there are any ACA meetings in my area, but once again, I wonder if it's appropriate for me to attend since my parents were not alcoholics. Are there any members in your group who just come from "dysfunctional" families rather than alcoholic families?
I was wondering if you could expand a little on your statement, "Hearing 5,000+ stories, many more than once, has given me a unique glimpse into dysfunction as an archtype behavior." I'm not sure I understand.
Also, why do you think there's more guidance in ACA than Coda?
Best,
Cass P.S. I admire you for running marathons!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2004, at 22:58:46
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by Cass on October 9, 2004, at 18:30:21
> Hi 64bowtie,
>
> Thanks for the clarification on requiring vs. suggesting members find their higher power.I hope you don't mind another voice speaking up.
A higher power could be anything, really. I had real trouble with the concept of god, myself, so I just added an 'o' and made it good instead. I believed in the power of good in my life.> I'm going to see if there are any ACA meetings in my area, but once again, I wonder if it's appropriate for me to attend since my parents were not alcoholics. Are there any members in your group who just come from "dysfunctional" families rather than alcoholic families?
Adult Children of Alcoholics officially approved a name change over a decade ago, to Adult Children Anonymous, but many groups retain the original name. It was decided that the change would not be obligatory on individual groups. The central organization itself reverted to the old name, to dispel confusion.
The name change was approved because it became apparent that children growing up in dysfunctional families shared certain common characteristics despite great differences in the nature of the dysfunction. Some grew up with workaholism, or perfectionism, or alcoholism, of course. Others, with religionism (also, I've seen that as religiholism), foodaholism, or various forms of abuse. The list is really endless, but in each case, the child's needs were not met. The child was expected to behave in certain specific ways. "Love" was always conditional, never unconditional. I used quotes around love because it's hard sometimes to look back in retrospect to see love at all.
The concept of adult child itself suggests that certain developmental stages were not attained. Parts of us remained fearful children, despite reaching physical maturity. You might want to look at this list, to see if any of it strikes a familiar chord:
http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Problem.s
> I was wondering if you could expand a little on your statement, "Hearing 5,000+ stories, many more than once, has given me a unique glimpse into dysfunction as an archtype behavior." I'm not sure I understand.My perspective on that is that each story varies in the details, but there are remarkable similarities in the outcomes.
> Also, why do you think there's more guidance in ACA than Coda?I personally feel that ACA is more about healing the rift within, rather than in coping with relationships with others. However, I have also found that different groups under the same name (e.g. different ACA groups) have dramatically different styles or approaches to meetings and what they talk about. AA meetings are much the same everywhere I went, but ACA meetings are not. Just a heads-up. If you think you might identify with "The Problem", but you don't click with the first group you find, please try going to others.
> Best,
> Cass P.S. I admire you for running marathons!!Me too. I tend only to run to the john.
Lar
Posted by 64bowtie on October 10, 2004, at 2:24:09
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by Cass on October 9, 2004, at 18:30:21
> I'm going to see if there are any ACA meetings in my area, but once again, I wonder if it's appropriate for me to attend since my parents were not alcoholics.
<<< No matter! 80% to 95% of all families are dysfunctional (depends on who you believe and why). That said, Go to the meetings until you feel you found a home where everyone is just like you. Larry Hoover pointed out that a common meeting format includes several readings of approved material. For ACA, reading The 12 steps, the "Problem", and the "Solution" (....to become your own loving parent...) is suggested for all meetings, including speaker meetings. The Serenity Prayer, and the 13 Characteristics of Adult Children, are also considered must-reads by most meetings.
<<< Like Larry Hoover also said, its the common threads through all that sharing that makes bells ring and lights in your head go bright, making my 5,000 stories I've heard priceless. (Thanx Lar)
<<< ACA World services will provide more information if you are still concerned. I would be concerned if you didn't try several meetings. Example: There were 11 meetings a week in Ventura County, four of which I considered my home meetings, when I first started going. I went against conventional reason and went to Overeaters Anonymous and Alanon meetings also. I was in a hurry to never again feel and do what I had felt and done! Like I shared, I also sprinkled in some AA speaker meetings just for giggles. (I can't get excited about Booze nor drugs... I blame it on growing up in terrible poverty, making the expense of booze and drugs out of reach). ....or maybe its a genetic thing.... Regardless, I consider myself a lucky miracle!
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on October 10, 2004, at 2:26:17
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » Cass, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2004, at 22:58:46
Posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 3:05:29
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by Cass on October 9, 2004, at 18:30:21
I can't do 12 step programs. They require me to have faith in things that I do not have faith in. I know that you can start out with your bedpan or whatever you like as your higher power, but it is beyond credibility to complete the step requiring you to surrender your will to the bedpan if that is your conception of a higher power. The steps increasingly turn the conception of god into an agent who will help us if only we surrender our will to him / her.
I don't believe it is about surrender.
I believe it is about learning how to take responsibility.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 6:01:13
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 3:05:29
> I can't do 12 step programs. They require me to have faith in things that I do not have faith in. I know that you can start out with your bedpan or whatever you like as your higher power, but it is beyond credibility to complete the step requiring you to surrender your will to the bedpan if that is your conception of a higher power. The steps increasingly turn the conception of god into an agent who will help us if only we surrender our will to him / her.
>
> I don't believe it is about surrender.
> I believe it is about learning how to take responsibility.I hope you read my post, wherein I described my own struggle with god (and surrendering to him/her/it).....I added an o to the word, and came up with good. I think you might be able to surrender to good. I do think so. I hope that is not too presumptuous.
It most definitely is about taking responsibility, but only for that part you should be responsible for. You develop clear interpersonal boundaries by doing the twelve steps....taking responsibility for your sh*t, and leaving other people's sh*t alone.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 6:01:49
In reply to Thanx, » Lar » (nm), posted by 64bowtie on October 10, 2004, at 2:26:17
Posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 9:26:17
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 6:01:13
I don't want to get too involved here, but I do want to say that 12-step programmes do not work for everybody. I am one of those who did not respond well to AA. I have tried other other "flavours" of the 12-steps too. I appreciate the concern and advice of those who have directed me, but I finally acknowledged that this is not the way I am going to get better.
I am finding my own path, however, with therapy, medicine, and lots of introspection.
Posted by Cass on October 10, 2004, at 16:22:24
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » Cass, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2004, at 22:58:46
Thanks for your input and for the link, Larry. I know that each persons idea of a higher power can be different in AA which is great. I also see God and Goodness as synonymous. The bible says "God is good," and I interpret that to mean that God is goodness itself. Goodness isn't simply a quality of that God has, rather that God and goodness are the same thing. There is great power in goodness. I don't believe all that's written in the bible or that the bible is the "the word of God," but I do believe there is wisdom to be found in it.
Best,
Cass
Posted by Cass on October 10, 2004, at 16:40:43
In reply to » Cass » ACA 12 step programs, posted by 64bowtie on October 10, 2004, at 2:24:09
Thanks for telling me about ACA world services. I guess I need to just go to the meetings and find out which ones feel best for me. I just looked for the ACA groups in my area. For some reason, there are very few ACA and CoDA meetings close by. I guess I'll have to go the extra mile.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 17:27:34
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 6:01:13
> I hope you read my post, wherein I described my own struggle with god (and surrendering to him/her/it).....I added an o to the word, and came up with good. I think you might be able to surrender to good. I do think so. I hope that is not too presumptuous.
Oh, I get it now, I thought you were surrendering to God-o and I didn't see how that would help! (Especially if it was a pun on 'Godot' who never arrives!)
I agree that I could probably come up with something... and I could probably try to 'translate' everything that is said into something that is more consonant with my world view, but it all gets just so darn complicated...
Anyone tried 'rational recovery' as an alternative to AA / NA / ACOA etc???
Posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 17:35:55
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 17:27:34
Yup. Tried it.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 19:07:35
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith) » alexandra_k, posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 17:35:55
> Yup. Tried it.
How was it? I read the book, but it is only offered in Christchurch in NZ and I am not in that region.
I have been on two residential programs for drug addiction / abuse but what I found the most helpful for reducing my intake has been varsity. The only thing more important to me than drugs is university. I don't use before class, and I don't use at times when it will interfeare with my studies. I suppose that I am lucky there.
Aside from that - party on!
Though I should use a little less, reallly :-)
Posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 19:11:58
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 19:07:35
I think you have found what works for you - keep your goal in mind. I would never recommend one recovery group over another because we are all as individuals so different. I would only be able to say what my experience was.
pc
Posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 19:53:11
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 19:11:58
sure, I understand, point taken. Would you be willing to share your experience?
Posted by 64bowtie on October 11, 2004, at 2:57:34
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 19:53:11
.
Posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 4:26:02
In reply to Re: 12 step programs (redirect from pb-Faith), posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 19:53:11
my experiences out here.
pc
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2004, at 8:32:54
In reply to Narc-anon is part of Scientology, y'know, posted by 64bowtie on October 11, 2004, at 2:57:34
I just want to make clear what is going on with this.
I think that there was a clear intent to confuse when the Scientologists created the sound-alike group called Narc-anon. It got them into high schools in California, for example, where some rather, uhhh, interesting concepts were expressed to the students.
Similar to AA and Al-anon, there is Narcotics Anonymous and Nar-anon, the latter for spouses or loved ones dealing with the behaviours of an addict.
You gotta be careful out there.
Lar
Posted by tootercat on October 11, 2004, at 17:26:26
In reply to Re: Narc-anon is part of Scientology, y'know » 64bowtie, posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2004, at 8:32:54
To me it is about acceptance and living life on "life's terms not MY terms" I may not always get what I WANT but I do get what I NEED. The more I try to control things the more out of control my life becomes. So when I accept people, places, situations and things I cannot change I have a whole lot more peace and freedom.
This does not mean I become a doorknob and let myself or others be abused; it means that when traffic is slow, or my coworker is not my favorite person, or I didn't get my way etc, I don't try to change anything except MY actions or MY perception. This is alot more involved than I can explain in one post......
I have been involved in 12 step (mostly AA) for almost 15 years. I would not have the life that I have now if not for the guidance and love and support that the members have given without reservation and without expecting something in return. I agree, however, that it is not for everyone.
As Larry stated (I think) none of the things in the program are required. It is a "suggested program of recovery"
I happen to believe in a power greater than myself who I choose to call God but I still don't know exactly who or what he or she is other than a prescence or a being that helps me to believe that I am not alone. I have chosen NOT to be religious about my God, but hopefully spiritual. My God is ever-evolving as I am and I like that because it gives me the freedom to grow and ask questions and learn. I spent 30 plus years feeling alone in a room full of people and now I have a constant companion.
On another note: I tried CodA at one point and found it not to have the structure and support that I needed.
Thanks for letting me share!Hugs,
Tooter
Posted by verne on October 11, 2004, at 18:40:42
In reply to Surrender does NOT mean giving up......, posted by tootercat on October 11, 2004, at 17:26:26
Surrender was the key for me too. I finally got out of the way and let go.
I really agree with you when you say, "To me it is about acceptance and living life on "life's terms not MY terms" I may not always get what I WANT but I do get what I NEED. The more I try to control things the more out of control my life becomes. So when I accept people, places, situations and things I cannot change I have a whole lot more peace and freedom."
In this borderline course I'm thinking about starting they also use the word, "Willingness" as opposed to "wilfullness". With more surrender and acceptance comes patience and peace.
I might get religious if I go on.
verne
Posted by Jai Narayan on October 11, 2004, at 19:19:47
In reply to Re: Surrender does NOT mean giving up...... » tootercat, posted by verne on October 11, 2004, at 18:40:42
let your voice call upon the highest of the high....I want to hear it ring.
So that's my way of saying "go for it Verne".
Jai
Posted by alexandra_k on October 11, 2004, at 21:41:05
In reply to I would rather not share » alexandra_k, posted by partlycloudy on October 11, 2004, at 4:26:02
> my experiences out here.
> pcI apologise if my question struck you as overly personal. I was just interested to hear your thoughts on RR as I have never met anyone who has had the opportunity to try it before.
Posted by 64bowtie on October 11, 2004, at 23:05:26
In reply to Re: Narc-anon is part of Scientology, y'know » 64bowtie, posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2004, at 8:32:54
...sometimes I take my knowlegde of the 12 steps for granted as being available to all. Naranon is a great program, based on the Big Book and the 12&12 just like Alanon. However, approach Narc-anon cautiously with an 11 foot pole.
Rod
Posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 4:37:18
In reply to Re: I would rather not share » partlycloudy, posted by alexandra_k on October 11, 2004, at 21:41:05
No, not personal at all ! - I don't want to open up my experiences to a general discussion of the efficacy of these treatments (it has happened to me before!).
I would be happy to share. Feel free to babble mail me.
pc
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