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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Roo on September 9, 2002, at 10:09:56
Hope you're feeling better....I was trying to remember if
your the same person whose therapist I deeply disliked from
previous posts (a long time ago) you posted about you having
difficulties with him (?).Hope the session goes well, or went well, not sure when it was....
I was wondering if I could email you about going off ssri's and
maintaining on a mood stabilizer....I guess I'm just curious about
what your process was like, weaning off the luvox, being more sensitive for
while, etc. I'm kind of going through all that now (I've been med free for
a month) and I've just kind of wanted to talk to, ask questions of, someone
who's been through the same thing. I think it helps too that we have the
same DX...Anyway let me know, and I hope you're having a good day...
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2002, at 10:21:53
In reply to Dinah..., posted by Roo on September 9, 2002, at 10:09:56
Chuckle. If you read my post just above, you'll see that I was just thinking the same thing. (Although I had forgotten whether we had the same diagnosis). Of course you can email me. I'd like to compare experiences.
Dinah
P.S. My therapist is getting a lot better over time. I think I'm training him well. :)
Posted by Roo on September 9, 2002, at 11:51:39
In reply to Re: Dinah... » Roo, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2002, at 10:21:53
Hmmm...what's your email address?
I'm curious what your contingency plan is for going back
on ssri's...I've related to BPD symptoms too...but I try not to go there
b/c they make things sound so hopeless for BPD people and the
descriptions aint exactly flattering....plus the labeling thing kind
of bothers me....I mean we are human beings and souls too and it's real
easy for me to lose sight of that and I can get carried away with
labeling myself and pathologizing myself to death....When I used to be perfectly okay with being on SSRI's (years ago I was
fine with it)...I just thought to myself: I have weird brain chemistry, and
if all I have to do is take this pill to correct it, I"m fine with that...yes,
I could do all the therapy in the world....but you know what...I don't want to
work that hard. That was my decision then....that I didn't want to have to work
that damn hard just to feel somewhat normal. Now, after years of being on
ssri's, and really struggling with the sacrifices...particularly sex, which I love
DEARLY and has always been the one thing about me that worked great despite all my
emotional stuff............but anyway, also the emotional blunting...feeling a little
vegetative....that bothers me too now, whereas before it was so damn novel b/c I was used
to living life so OVER sensitized that it was a welcome relief. Now I seem to be
in a different spot....I think I _am_ willing to work really hard to deal with my
feelings...I think...I say this with trepidation b/c I"m afraid I'm going to fail, that I won't
be able to hack it......and there must be a balance...yes, I'm willing to work hard, but
I don't think I'm willing for my mental health to be something I think about and worry about
and analyze 24-7....that's what I liked about the drugs...I didn't have to _think_ about
this stuff so much, I just got on with my life. Do you know what I mean? Has it settled down
with you some? Do you think about your moods constantly? Are you in your head constantly? Were
you at first and then it calmed down some? I did have moments at the beach this weekend where I
was just present in the moment...floating in the ocean...having conversations with friends that were
somethign other than analyzing emotions....so I think I'm capable...I don't even know if I'm making sense Dinah....
I really don't want for my whole life to be engaged with some
internal struggle inside my head....I want to be present and experience
joy and just a feeling of not being so internal ALL THE TIME.
If I can't seem to get past that without drugs...I guess I'll go back on...(maybe
that's my contigency plan)....I think I've identified my number one priority as being able to give and
receive love (on all sorts of levels..not just romantic...but being there for
a freind, being able to feel a friends love for me, being able to love my career and
feeling myself giving something, and to be able to feel that career interaction giving
back to me)...if the disease gets to where I'm so engaged in negative internal dialogue
and I'm incapable of that....I think I might have to take drugs....no orgasm in the world
is worth that...(although I say that with a pang in my heart :-) ).
I'm seeing a therapist once a week. It helps a lot with my perspective.
And it's less "talk therapy" than it is actively working to develop skills
to handle distorted/negative thoughts...
You know, and that's the thing about the drugs..they really do buffer
those thoughts...I still have them on drugs, but they don't effect me as
much, for instance, I'll think "I'm a loser" , but instead of latching
onto that thought and letting it cause me incredible pain, my mind will
just sort of be like "yeah, whatever" and move on.
It does make me wonder about a point that some antidrug people have made
which is drugs don't handle the root problem. And it's hard to be motivated
to fix the root problem if it doesn't hurt really bad. If know that maybe
the pain serves some sort of purpose...to help motivate me to work through
some root issue...then I'd be more likely to withstand the pain. But sometimes
I also think the pain of depression is just in vain--it's just useless pain that's caused
from a bunch of misfiring neurotransmitters.I've forgotten what my point is...just rambling, I guess.
I'm not sure how long to give the process...
Posted by Gabbix2 on September 9, 2002, at 11:52:28
In reply to Re: Dinah... » Roo, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2002, at 10:21:53
Posted by Roo on September 9, 2002, at 12:49:10
In reply to Roo an emotionally promiscuous e-mail is on theway (nm), posted by Gabbix2 on September 9, 2002, at 11:52:28
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2002, at 13:26:34
In reply to Re: Dinah..., posted by Roo on September 9, 2002, at 11:51:39
> I'm curious what your contingency plan is for going back
> on ssri's...There are just some life circumstances that I think would strain my ability to cope too much. An example would be having to care for my parents full time.
>
> I've related to BPD symptoms too...but I try not to go thereI guess where I find it useful is to find types of interventions that work well for it, and to recognize the sorts of distorted thinking that I need to be aware of.
>
> When I used to be perfectly okay with being on SSRI's (years ago I was
> fine with it)...I just thought to myself: I have weird brain chemistry, and
> if all I have to do is take this pill to correct it, I"m fine with that...yes,
> I could do all the therapy in the world....but you know what...I don't want to
> work that hard. That was my decision then....that I didn't want to have to work
> that damn hard just to feel somewhat normal. Now, after years of being on
> ssri's, and really struggling with the sacrifices...particularly sex, which I love
> DEARLY and has always been the one thing about me that worked great despite all my
> emotional stuff............but anyway, also the emotional blunting...feeling a little
> vegetative....that bothers me too now, whereas before it was so damn novel b/c I was used
> to living life so OVER sensitized that it was a welcome relief.I am remembering that feelings so well. It took me over three years on Luvox before I really realized the trade-offs. The sex didn't bother me until after I went off Luvox, because on it I had no desire to have an orgasm. But the emotional flattening, the inability to really feel anything for people I wanted to feel intense love for, the Luvox stupids (I'm ashamed to admit that it meant a lot to me to feel intelligent and quick witted), the apathy, all those things eventually made me feel less human.
> that's what I liked about the drugs...I didn't have to _think_ about this stuff so much, I just got on with my life. Do you know what I mean?
Hmm. Perhaps SSRI's worked better for you than they did for me. They stopped my OCD in it's tracks but I ruminated a lot about my inability to feel positive emotions, enjoy movies, feel Christmas, love my family, etc. And I was subject to sudden rages on the SSRI's, perhaps because I was less aware of when things were building up, leading me to self injure more on the drugs than off.
> Do you think about your moods constantly? Are you in your head constantly?
Yes, I tend to be like that. But that's my personality. I'm introspective and ruminative and even on SSRI's that was true (see above). I just ruminated about different things. I'm not sure I'd change that if I could. It's too much a part of who I am.
>
> I think I've identified my number one priority as being able to give and
> receive love (on all sorts of levels..not just romantic...but being there for
> a freind, being able to feel a friends love for me, being able to love my career and
> feeling myself giving something, and to be able to feel that career interaction giving
> back to me)...And that was my main reason for going off of SSRI's. I would look at dogs I dearly loved before the drugs and feel nothing at all. It made me so angry and disgusted with myself. I felt so inhuman. I think it's our attachments to others that anchor us to this world and it was more difficult than usual for me to feel attached on the SSRI's. I have difficulties in that area to begin with.
>
> I'm seeing a therapist once a week. It helps a lot with my perspective.
> And it's less "talk therapy" than it is actively working to develop skills
> to handle distorted/negative thoughts...
> You know, and that's the thing about the drugs..they really do buffer
> those thoughts...I still have them on drugs, but they don't effect me as
> much, for instance, I'll think "I'm a loser" , but instead of latching
> onto that thought and letting it cause me incredible pain, my mind will
> just sort of be like "yeah, whatever" and move on.Yes, I suppose that's true. But...the same was true for my regular, non-distorted, non-negative thoughts. :)
> It does make me wonder about a point that some antidrug people have made
> which is drugs don't handle the root problem. And it's hard to be motivated
> to fix the root problem if it doesn't hurt really bad. If know that maybe
> the pain serves some sort of purpose...to help motivate me to work through
> some root issue...then I'd be more likely to withstand the pain. But sometimes
> I also think the pain of depression is just in vain--it's just useless pain that's caused
> from a bunch of misfiring neurotransmitters.
>I guess I'm a bit skeptical about there being root issues too. I think I'm just biologically hard-wired to have problems with emotional regulation. What I can do is to dismantle the poor coping mechanisms I've developed to survive and replace them with better coping mechanisms. For example, I've always used dissociation rather heavily as a coping mechanism, and I still do, but I'm learning to have some control over it, to use it in an appropriate manner, etc. It's better to use it with awareness than without I think.
So does it ever get easy without meds? No. It doesn't. But it's a question of choosing which symptoms you'd rather live with. I've made my choice to feel more fully, but to be careful and monitor my reactions, use therapy to contain them, etc. That does require some introspection and being aware of my moods.
I doubt there's a best answer. Just what you want to deal with. It stinks doesn't it? I sometimes wish I didn't have these problems and didn't have to make these decisions. But... there are good things to extreme emotional sensitivity too.
Posted by Tabitha Ðòñë ƒ£îþþëÐ on September 10, 2002, at 4:22:51
In reply to Roo an emotionally promiscuous e-mail is on theway (nm), posted by Gabbix2 on September 9, 2002, at 11:52:28
Posted by Tabitha Ðòñë ƒ£îþþëÐ on September 10, 2002, at 4:36:24
In reply to Re: not fair, I want one too :( whine beg. (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by Tabitha Ðòñë ƒ£îþþëÐ on September 10, 2002, at 4:22:51
Posted by Roo on September 10, 2002, at 11:01:26
In reply to Re: A very long answer » Roo, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2002, at 13:26:34
>
>> I guess where I find it useful is to find types
of interventions that work well for it, and to
recognize the sorts of distorted thinking that
I need to be aware of.
Yeah, that sounds reasonable. My own personal tendency
is to just start feeling doomed by a diagnoses...but if
you can be logical and just take what is useful, that's
very good...
> I am remembering that feelings so well. It took
me over three years on Luvox before I really
realized the trade-offs. The sex didn't bother me
until after I went off Luvox, because on it
I had no desire to have an orgasm. But the
emotional flattening, the inability to really
feel anything for people I wanted to feel intense
love for, the Luvox stupids (I'm ashamed to admit
that it meant a lot to me to feel intelligent
and quick witted), the apathy, all those things
eventually made me feel less human.
Yeah, I know what you mean. It's pretty amazing. And another
thing on ssri's...I'm not sure if you experienced this or not...but
I lost the ability for belly laughter...I'd still kind of chuckle, but
I wouldn't just lose it laughing...and it was harder to feel really
deep compassion, you are right, and that's very disturbing.
> Hmm. Perhaps SSRI's worked better for you
than they did for me. They stopped my OCD
in it's tracks but I ruminated a lot about
my inability to feel positive emotions, enjoy
movies, feel Christmas, love my family, etc.
And I was subject to sudden rages on the SSRI's
, perhaps because I was less aware of when
things were building up, leading me to self
injure more on the drugs than off.
Hmmm...that's interesting. I guess to be honest, I still
ruminated about stuff too...I just didn't care as much...I'd
ruminate, but it wouldn't cut me to the core....and I could
let it go sooner...
> Yes, I tend to be like that. But that's my
personality. I'm introspective and ruminative
and even on SSRI's that was true (see above).
I just ruminated about different things.
I'm not sure I'd change that if I could.
It's too much a part of who I am.
Yeah, part of it is probably my personality too. I'm
definitely an introvert. Although I love being with people,
I'm usually pretty quiet. And i'm introspective. I guess
when it just becomes this endless negative tapes that play, it's
not just personality...it's depression. There's a difference between
just being thoughtful and introspective and just being trapped in
your head with ruminating tapes...
> And that was my main reason for going off of
SSRI's. I would look at dogs I dearly loved
before the drugs and feel nothing at all.
It made me so angry and disgusted with myself.
I felt so inhuman. I think it's our attachments
to others that anchor us to this world and it
was more difficult than usual for me to feel
attached on the SSRI's. I have difficulties
in that area to begin with.
I guess that was part of the appeal for me too...I get SO
attached to people that it's almost painful...so having a
feeling of detachment felt so of luxurious (at first) and like
I had more control, and less fears of being abandoned by the
people I was so attached to. Less raw, more protected. But
I feel more ready now to deal with the intensity of my emotions.
I think I just grew up terrified of my emotions. Now I'm like
"Cool! I'm trembling and shaking inside! Wow!" Whereas before
it scared the shit out of me and I felt I had to squelch it immediately.
>
> Yes, I suppose that's true. But...the same was
true for my regular, non-distorted, non-negative
thoughts. :)Yep. And I think it's really important to remind myself of
that.
>
> I guess I'm a bit skeptical about there being
root issues too. I think I'm just biologically
hard-wired to have problems with emotional
regulation. What I can do is to dismantle the
poor coping mechanisms I've developed to survive
and replace them with better coping mechanisms.
For example, I've always used dissociation rather
heavily as a coping mechanism, and I still do,
but I'm learning to have some control over it,
to use it in an appropriate manner, etc.
It's better to use it with awareness than
without I think.Yes, exactly. That's where I'm at--recognizing my coping
mechanisms and trying to change them...I'm having to "act
opposite" a lot, and that is HARD when just every cell in
your being wants to do the behavior...to try something new...
is really hard. Especially in social situations, I find.
>
> So does it ever get easy without meds? No. It doesn't.
But it's a question of choosing which symptoms
you'd rather live with. I've made my choice to
feel more fully, but to be careful and monitor
my reactions, use therapy to contain them, etc.
That does require some introspection and being
aware of my moods.Well put. I think I am making that choice too. And in
the process of _committing_ to it. It's very scarey. I've
been on numbing ssri's for a long time...it's scarey to
step out into the world without that armor. But it's
exciting too! And like I said, I feel more able to handle and
even get into my feelings than before.
>
> I doubt there's a best answer. Just what
you want to deal with. It stinks doesn't it?
I sometimes wish I didn't have these problems
and didn't have to make these decisions.
But... there are good things to extreme emotional
sensitivity too.I really think we ought to start a thread on that...what
are the good things about all this...
If you could make a list of the good things, what would they be?For me it would be:
1. Belly laughter
2. Literally trembling with excitement
3. Killer orgasms
4. The ability to feel moved to tears.
5. Feeling fully, in your heart, how much you love somebody.The list is growing, it's still new, so that's all I have for now...
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2002, at 14:49:37
In reply to Re: A very long answer, posted by Roo on September 10, 2002, at 11:01:26
I've had some trouble articulating these.
Of course, the ability to fully enjoy movies, sex, and loved ones is wonderful.
But one of the main advantages is that I'm very finely tuned to the moods of others. That's bad in a way, as I have trouble filtering out the anger of others, for example. But it was invaluable growing up, and I still rely on it quite a bit. I felt kind of lost without it while on SSRI's.
I hope that doesn't sound too odd. :)
Posted by Robin David John on September 10, 2002, at 18:13:18
In reply to Re: A very long answer, posted by Roo on September 10, 2002, at 11:01:26
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
> > I guess where I find it useful is to find types
> of interventions that work well for it, and to
> recognize the sorts of distorted thinking that
> I need to be aware of.
>
>
> Yeah, that sounds reasonable. My own personal tendency
> is to just start feeling doomed by a diagnoses...but if
> you can be logical and just take what is useful, that's
> very good...
>
>
> > I am remembering that feelings so well. It took
> me over three years on Luvox before I really
> realized the trade-offs. The sex didn't bother me
> until after I went off Luvox, because on it
> I had no desire to have an orgasm. But the
> emotional flattening, the inability to really
> feel anything for people I wanted to feel intense
> love for, the Luvox stupids (I'm ashamed to admit
> that it meant a lot to me to feel intelligent
> and quick witted), the apathy, all those things
> eventually made me feel less human.
>
>
> Yeah, I know what you mean. It's pretty amazing. And another
> thing on ssri's...I'm not sure if you experienced this or not...but
> I lost the ability for belly laughter...I'd still kind of chuckle, but
> I wouldn't just lose it laughing...and it was harder to feel really
> deep compassion, you are right, and that's very disturbing.
>
>
> > Hmm. Perhaps SSRI's worked better for you
> than they did for me. They stopped my OCD
> in it's tracks but I ruminated a lot about
> my inability to feel positive emotions, enjoy
> movies, feel Christmas, love my family, etc.
> And I was subject to sudden rages on the SSRI's
> , perhaps because I was less aware of when
> things were building up, leading me to self
> injure more on the drugs than off.
>
>
> Hmmm...that's interesting. I guess to be honest, I still
> ruminated about stuff too...I just didn't care as much...I'd
> ruminate, but it wouldn't cut me to the core....and I could
> let it go sooner...
>
>
> > Yes, I tend to be like that. But that's my
> personality. I'm introspective and ruminative
> and even on SSRI's that was true (see above).
> I just ruminated about different things.
> I'm not sure I'd change that if I could.
> It's too much a part of who I am.
>
>
> Yeah, part of it is probably my personality too. I'm
> definitely an introvert. Although I love being with people,
> I'm usually pretty quiet. And i'm introspective. I guess
> when it just becomes this endless negative tapes that play, it's
> not just personality...it's depression. There's a difference between
> just being thoughtful and introspective and just being trapped in
> your head with ruminating tapes...
>
> > And that was my main reason for going off of
> SSRI's. I would look at dogs I dearly loved
> before the drugs and feel nothing at all.
> It made me so angry and disgusted with myself.
> I felt so inhuman. I think it's our attachments
> to others that anchor us to this world and it
> was more difficult than usual for me to feel
> attached on the SSRI's. I have difficulties
> in that area to begin with.
>
>
> I guess that was part of the appeal for me too...I get SO
> attached to people that it's almost painful...so having a
> feeling of detachment felt so of luxurious (at first) and like
> I had more control, and less fears of being abandoned by the
> people I was so attached to. Less raw, more protected. But
> I feel more ready now to deal with the intensity of my emotions.
> I think I just grew up terrified of my emotions. Now I'm like
> "Cool! I'm trembling and shaking inside! Wow!" Whereas before
> it scared the shit out of me and I felt I had to squelch it immediately.
> >
> > Yes, I suppose that's true. But...the same was
> true for my regular, non-distorted, non-negative
> thoughts. :)
>
> Yep. And I think it's really important to remind myself of
> that.
> >
> > I guess I'm a bit skeptical about there being
> root issues too. I think I'm just biologically
> hard-wired to have problems with emotional
> regulation. What I can do is to dismantle the
> poor coping mechanisms I've developed to survive
> and replace them with better coping mechanisms.
> For example, I've always used dissociation rather
> heavily as a coping mechanism, and I still do,
> but I'm learning to have some control over it,
> to use it in an appropriate manner, etc.
> It's better to use it with awareness than
> without I think.
>
> Yes, exactly. That's where I'm at--recognizing my coping
> mechanisms and trying to change them...I'm having to "act
> opposite" a lot, and that is HARD when just every cell in
> your being wants to do the behavior...to try something new...
> is really hard. Especially in social situations, I find.
> >
> > So does it ever get easy without meds? No. It doesn't.
> But it's a question of choosing which symptoms
> you'd rather live with. I've made my choice to
> feel more fully, but to be careful and monitor
> my reactions, use therapy to contain them, etc.
> That does require some introspection and being
> aware of my moods.
>
> Well put. I think I am making that choice too. And in
> the process of _committing_ to it. It's very scarey. I've
> been on numbing ssri's for a long time...it's scarey to
> step out into the world without that armor. But it's
> exciting too! And like I said, I feel more able to handle and
> even get into my feelings than before.
> >
> > I doubt there's a best answer. Just what
> you want to deal with. It stinks doesn't it?
> I sometimes wish I didn't have these problems
> and didn't have to make these decisions.
> But... there are good things to extreme emotional
> sensitivity too.
>
> I really think we ought to start a thread on that...what
> are the good things about all this...
> If you could make a list of the good things, what would they be?
>
> For me it would be:
>
> 1. Belly laughter
> 2. Literally trembling with excitement
> 3. Killer orgasms
> 4. The ability to feel moved to tears.
> 5. Feeling fully, in your heart, how much you love somebody.
>
> The list is growing, it's still new, so that's all I have for now...
> 6. Having to hold that special someone for that extra long hug not wanting to let go
> 7 . That never ending kiss that just goes on and on
> 8. Trying to get that big grin off your face because you are so happy to see that special someone
> 9 falling asleep in perfect puzzle form with your partner....And # 10
> 10 having those great rushes dowm your back when someone is whispering in your ear sexually
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
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