![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 3:01:23
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 0:24:48
Just for the record...
I never said that animals weren't sentient.
That was Descartes.
It is a silly view.But at least Descartes was consistent...
That was my thought there. Descartes thought it was okay to kill them because they didn't have interests, and thus we didn't have to take their interests into account.Whereas...
If you say that animals are sentient
That they have goals
They have things they want to do
They have an interest in staying alive
The more you see that they have goals JUST LIKE US
The more it seems a little strange
That you can believe
That it is perfectly fine
Perfectly acceptable
To completely override their interests - their great interest in survival
In favour of the comparatively trivial interest that human beings have in having 'a little fun'.Do you understand my point?????
The notion is that we should treat people as ends in themselves. People have goals and plans and it is thought to be wrong to manipulate or make people do just what we want them to do with no consideration for them having autonomy and being allowed to persue goals that are different from ours.
People are ends in themselves (they have their own goals).
They are not merely means to our ends (to be manipulated for our own goals).But if animals are sentient...
If animals have their own goals...Then how is it that we can override their interest in survival to treat them as a mere means to our goal of having a little fun?
I do not understand.
Posted by gromit on May 23, 2005, at 4:09:44
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 0:24:48
Even in my med induced stupor I just can't let this one go, even if it wasn't addressed to me.
> Alexandra, I think we are so far apart on appreciating the continuum of motivation that binds humans and animals, it's probably not worth me trying to explain their sentience and the slavery to desires we share with them. Sure humans are as different from other animals as we are similar. But there are as many if not more differences between a bug and a bear than there are between a human and a bear.
First off, I find this incredibly condecending. It's not worth your time explaining, ie, you won't ever agree with me, you must be too dumb to understand.
> I hope you recognize that not all people, especially outside of Western and Christian cultures, are all that impressed with the idea that humans are moral agents. I'm not. I don't consider moral agency relevant to my behavior in the least. I don't believe in right or wrong outside a context of goals and the right or wrong way to get there. And I certainly don't believe we can *sses others by what they should or should not have done. All we have to go on is what we wanted them to do. I believe morals are cultural constructs, and I vote.So how else would you judge them then? To a nazi Hitler was a great leader with vision and the cajones to make things happen. Feel free to invoke Godwin's Law.
> I'm not alone, and I'm certainly not to be condemned along with millions of fellow animists for holding forth for the similarities we share with the rest of the animal kingdom. I don't think I have a moral obligation to the environment. I don't think we need to preserve it because it is instrumental. I just want to keep it more than I want a Rolls Royce, so that's where I try to invest my effort -- much the same way a stallion tries to maintain his harem of mares or a pack of wolves jealously defend their territory.I have a child, I believe it is absolutely my moral responsibily to do what I can to make this a livable planet for him and his kids. I also see animals as co-citizens but with no real control over what happens to them, don't we have some responsibility to them?
> Fortunately for the animistic cultures of the world who would otherwise be afforded no more credibility in modern society than animials, each of the notions you represent that separate us from animals -- that they can't hold abstract thoughts, that they can't make and keep promises, that they are not sentient, that they don't have duties or obligations, that they don't have mental capacity to contemplate alternatives, that they are not members of their own ethical communities, has been challenged in scientific literature by people who methodically study animals. I'm probably not going to debate these findings here, because they are too precious to me to represent without doing the kind of research and editing that costs more than I care to invest here.
I had a dog that was smarter than at least 10% of the people I encounter on the freeway every day. I again find your tone condescending.
> Heck, I might even hook up a quadrapalegic son of an old farmer with a computer where he can hunt in a private game preserve over the Internet. He's eaten packaged meat so long, I want him to have the opportunity to appreciate the reality of his relationship with an animal, albeit as removed and artificial as is our dialogue here. I hope this isn't a forum where my choice is considered so reprehensible to people who don't share my values that I am fair game.
This is a public forum, whatever you say here is fair game.
I'll take it further, I don't think consider moral agency relevant to my behaviour in the least after all. Why not a website where we can remotely poke the quadrapalegic with hot sharp objects? Or maybe an auction where the highest bidder gets to eat him? Hell maybe he'd like to remotely hunt you, he's ok with it so where is the problem? (I hope you have a long and happy life)
Some things are just wrong.
I'm too left brained to understand philisophy, contemplating the meaning of triangles and such. If you choose to respond please use small words.
Rick
Posted by AuntieMel on May 23, 2005, at 14:29:20
In reply to Re: Did a Texan do anything to you?, posted by so on May 18, 2005, at 16:31:03
And I don't claim him:
"President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut"
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 17:04:37
In reply to Re: He's not a texan, posted by AuntieMel on May 23, 2005, at 14:29:20
> And I don't claim him:
>
> "President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut"Would you then suggest naturalized citizens are not Americans?
Texans elected him governor. That's about as much endorsement of residency as a person can get. In the United States, residency and national citizenship are the sole factors that determine who is a qualified participant in official processes of state jurisdictions.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 17:06:18
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by gromit on May 23, 2005, at 4:09:44
gromit wrote:
>
> ... you must be too dumb to understand.
>
Posted by gromit on May 23, 2005, at 21:28:07
In reply to I heard that... » gromit, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 17:06:18
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 25, 2005, at 0:45:34
In reply to Internet Hunting, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 17:31:15
Personally I am against hunting as a "sport" or "hobby" but not because of philosophical (thou shall not kill type of stuff) reasons but basic animal welfare. If the methods eventually change, my optinion on hunt might as well.
I do understand and accept that for some organisms to live, some must die. Its part of how nature works. And yes we are predators and yes we have the digestive systems of omnivores suggesting that we need some animal protein.
However, I also think that given the technology that we posess, hunting is needlessly cruel in its current form. I can understand that some people might get a trill out of tracking and capturing an animal and then eating it. Its all fine and dandy and they should be free to do so as long as they are not destroying an ecosystem in the process. Sustainability should be paramount.
However, what I will NEVER agree with is the method to kill the animal. Lets face it, most hunters cannot land a shot in the head most of the time. This means that the animal is not killed instantly and feels pain until the hunter can catch up to it and put it to death.
If hunters in south america can hunt using curare, why can we not hunt using tranq guns? Something that puts the animal to sleep so it only feels the sting of a needle instead of a piece of super hot metal ripping through their flesh, bones and organs. There are, I am quite sure, sedating agents that can put the animal to sleep quickly so it can then humanely put to death and which are not dangerous to humans if they eat the carcass afterwards ... it works in South America with very primitive compounds ... so why not here?
Due to a weird medical error, I have had to endure having my flesh cut open and sewed shut without any anasthetic. Now this was a tiny scalpel ... not metal sharpnels propelled at high speed. And it still hurt like heck ... it only lasted a minute and it felt like hours. I would never wish that upon any living being that has the capacity to feel pain.
We have the technology, so why do we have to hunt using standard guns. If you want to hunt an animal and then eat its meat and use its body to make something, given environmental considrations, if you're not endangering the specie, go ahead ... but think of the welfare of the animal that gets killed.
I find it rather hypocritical when people would never dream of using a gun when it comes to euthanizing their dog or cat and yet do that exact thing to wild animals. They are just as capable of feeling pain. If your pet cat or dog deserves a painless death via a sedative, why not the bear or deer that gives up its life so that you may eat and entertain yourself?
If you had to choose the method of your death which one would you choose : a shot that puts you to sleep or a random gunshot somewhere in the chest and then, a few minutes later, a shot in the head?
I have pet rats and I often end up having to put them to sleep when they cannot wait for the vet to open when its them and I would never even begin to entertain the thought of using a method which I would not deem acceptable for a human being.
Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
Posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 12:26:10
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 5:53:50
Wow...
I dont know really how to respond to his conversation, except to say, in my opinion, it certainly goes far and beyond the civillity guidelines.
I am a hunter.. So was my father, and his, and I am sure that it continues to go back through every generation. It's definitely going forward, as I take my son with me to hunt.
I enjoy it. I hunt deer, I hunt rabbit, occassionally dove. I am not trying to defend myself, because it is not necessary. It is legal, and in my opinion it is a good thing for reasons I wont bother explaining. I will offer this, not a single kill that I have made, EVER, has been tossed aside. All of the kills have been placed on my dinner table, and will continue to be.This quote from Alex is one that I question..
> I guess part of this question depends on how you defind "nature."
> I believe that it *is* natural for humans to eat meat, and this is proven to me by the structure of our teeth.That looks a lot similar to this:
I believe that is is natural for males to use physical force to control (rape) females as this is proven to me by the fact that males (tend to be) bigger than females.So.. and forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a comparison between hunting and rape?
I think the discussion was a valid and interesting one starting out. I am against the "internet hunting" thing myself. To me, there are too many variables involved that could cause problems. But I think it degenerated after that.
I respect the views that people have either pro or against hunting. I respect the different views on the morallity of the subject. I have mine, and I dont try to force them on others, and expect the same in return. Who defines what is morally acceptable, or unacceptable, is a debate for another board.
One final word.. I am born and raised in the southern part of the United States, our geographic location is one of the defining parts of our "morals". Those morals do not find rape acceptable.
Posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:28:57
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 25, 2005, at 0:45:34
> Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
I want to die with my boots on. I don't know of any animals -- other than humans --- that want to wear my shoes.
The rules on this board just confound me. A person is chastend by admin for calling it monsterous to recruit suicide bombers but people can go on at length about my alleged lack of decency for the manner in which I euthenize my pet and gather my food.
When, I wonder, did hunting become indecent? In 1800? Mabye 1776? How about 1500? Perhaps in the "year of our lord" aka "O" or maybe 33 a.d.?
Oddly, firearms became more efficient more recently -- with the invention of smokeless powder, cartridged projectiles and rifled barrel that let hunters deliver more punch more accurately.
Though many people classify their hunting activities as sport, others don't. Some adamently classify it as food gathering, especially in international treaties (regarding hunting of whales and seals by natives), and in other protected hunting practices by aboriginal nations. Is hunting food a privilage reserved as humane only for certain races?
For sake a clarity, head shots are rare and are not the recommended target -- for large game, vital organ shots are the standard. With small game, shotguns land scattershot anywhere in the body. With fish, they as often suffocate for lack of waterflow through the gills. And death for a fish at the hands of an angler is no different than the death they suffer flopping in the hold of a commercial fishing vessel. Unless you refuse to eat fish sticks, you paid someone to kill a fish like that when you buy a fresh salmon steak at the store.
Death by puncture wound to the head in the killing stall of a slaughter house isn't much different, albeit a bit quicker. But then, once wounded, would you rather die sooner or later? How about Terry Schiavo -- people said she should be kept alive no matter how badly injured was her brain. So letting a wounded animial have a few more hours to run in the woods, fueled by adrenaline and endorphines, well that's just more chance to live.
And yes, I've euthanized a pet by gunshot. My very humane neighbors asked that I do so. The death that pet suffered was far more humane than the deaths that neighbor caused or witnessed in the employ of the United States military. His stories made abu graib sound like a frat party by comparison.
How was that pet's death, in a natural setting, flopping for a few seconds after a gunshot to the head after being petted by her favorite human, any less humane than a painful prick to the paw while being held down by strangers on a cold steel table, after a few minutes or hours in a cage in a room full of other frightened animals?
I could go further to explore the ethics of one person or group imposing their values on another, but in the context of this thread, I am more interested in the manner in which values are described, and how that does or does not fulfil the requirements of this site that people not insult others who might not agree with them.
Posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:45:34
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape, posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 12:26:10
> Wow...
> I dont know really how to respond to his conversation, except to say, in my opinion, it certainly goes far and beyond the civillity guidelines.
hmm .. interesting observation. Tell me more about your opinion if you would like.
> I respect the views that people have either pro or against hunting. I respect the different views on the morallity of the subject. I have mine, and I dont try to force them on others, and expect the same in return.
Yeh, me to. I might even advance the other side of this debate if I noticed it were being presented here as a farce instead of as an interesting human perspective.
> One final word.. I am born and raised in the southern part of the United States, our geographic location is one of the defining parts of our "morals". Those morals do not find rape acceptable.Broken --- I remember the night they drove old Dixie down. What happened between Atlanta and the Gulf coast was not acceptable by many peoples' standards, and might have wounded your family and mine for decades to follow.
>Who defines what is morally acceptable, or unacceptable, is a debate for another board.
I would be inclined to say in as much as those morals become the basis for law, they fit the definition of this board. I would refer back to your certainty about the proximity of the manner of discussion in relation to the guidelines as a more potentially productive subject about which to investigate inconsistency.
> I think the discussion was a valid and interesting one starting out.
I noticed it turning --- uh, north --- even at the outset, with the statement "what a farce". Perhaps I am still a bit sensitive for my earlier adminonishment at this board for disclosing what I perceive as farsical human activities.
>
> So.. and forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a comparison between hunting and rape?
>The explanation offered in this thread for why the comparison is okay under the present rules was that the actual activities or motives weren't compared, but instead the structure of the logic. Apparently one needs more logical discernment than I have developed to appreciate fine nuance in what is tolerable at this site.
Posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 15:17:32
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 3:26:41
> > It made it morally acceptable to those people in that time and place.
>
> Ah... Moral relativism...
>
> >Or are you suggesting your morals now dictate what is morally acceptable now and always for everybody?
>
> Not *my morals*... But I believe there are universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc...
>
> One example might be:
>
> Torturing a baby for fun is morally wrong.
>
> > There might be a time when pouring sulfur dioxide into the air is considered immoral, but today few so consider it. Some people today consider dancing immoral, but others don't.
>
> Just because people may think morals are relative that doesn't mean morals are relative.And just because people believe that there is some universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc. Doesn't make it so either.
Ofcourse you are entitled to those beliefs, as I am entitled to mine. But your beliefs do not equal fact. They are what they are... Your beliefs. Mine are different, but they aren't fact either.
>
> If whatever a culture says goes...
>
> Then the holocaust is only wrong from our perspective now.
>
> If Hitler had won the war then I guess it would still be morally acceptable.
>
> Likewise the notion that black people aren't moral persons (they are no more than animals) and thus we don't really need to take their interests into account.
>
> Likewise the notion that animals (aside from our particular beloved pets) don't require to have their interest in remaining alive taken seriously when it comes to the 'fun' of us killing them.
>
> Do you really want to accept that conclusion???The only conclusion that I want to accept is that I am as entitled to my beliefs as you are. I believe that these comparisons are extreme to the nth degree. I believe that anyone that hunts would feel put down on accused by your comparisons. I believe the guidelines to civillity on this website have been put in place to keep such things from happening, and are being ignored throughout this entire thread.
But those are only my beliefs, and that doesn't make them fact.
> My specific point about rape was just supposed to illustrate that just because people do do something or just because a culture does think that something is morally ok that doesn't make it morally ok in the greater scheme of things.
>
>That might have been your intention, but again, as someone that hunts legally, abides by the laws of my nation, which (right or wrong) loosely define morals in place here, it appeared you were comparing hunting to rape.
Chris
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 0:12:01
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:28:57
> > Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
>
> I want to die with my boots on. I don't know of any animals -- other than humans --- that want to wear my shoes.
>
> The rules on this board just confound me. A person is chastend by admin for calling it monsterous to recruit suicide bombers but people can go on at length about my alleged lack of decency for the manner in which I euthenize my pet and gather my food.
>Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets. I don't even know if you have any pets. I was speaking my point of view on the issue of huting in general ... if you feel attacked, there is little I can do. I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
> When, I wonder, did hunting become indecent? In 1800? Mabye 1776? How about 1500? Perhaps in the "year of our lord" aka "O" or maybe 33 a.d.?
>
Why inflict pain when we can achieve the same end without it? That is basically what I'm asking.> Oddly, firearms became more efficient more recently -- with the invention of smokeless powder, cartridged projectiles and rifled barrel that let hunters deliver more punch more accurately.
>
> Though many people classify their hunting activities as sport, others don't. Some adamently classify it as food gathering, especially in international treaties (regarding hunting of whales and seals by natives), and in other protected hunting practices by aboriginal nations. Is hunting food a privilage reserved as humane only for certain races?
>
I'm not against hunting in general if something is made of the animal that is killed. Killing for the sake of killing a living being is just pointless. I'm against the infliction of needless pain.Actually I am Aboriginal ... and it bother me that people go on and on about the "traditional" hunting. Its an abused notion. Want to hunt the "traditional" way? Ok, take a spear of knife and go find yourself a moose or whatever. My money is on the moose.
Personally, I feel no need or desire to "go back to the way things were". Why would I want to? Go back to not having heat, electricity, dying because of a simple infection and so on ... no thank you.
> For sake a clarity, head shots are rare and are not the recommended target -- for large game, vital organ shots are the standard. With small game, shotguns land scattershot anywhere in the body. With fish, they as often suffocate for lack of waterflow through the gills. And death for a fish at the hands of an angler is no different than the death they suffer flopping in the hold of a commercial fishing vessel. Unless you refuse to eat fish sticks, you paid someone to kill a fish like that when you buy a fresh salmon steak at the store.
Just because huting is "not worse" than commercial fishing is not a justification ... its a lame excuse. Mediocrity makes for a poor benchmark.
>
> Death by puncture wound to the head in the killing stall of a slaughter house isn't much different, albeit a bit quicker.Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.
>But then, once wounded, would you rather die sooner or later?
I would rather not feel the wound at all. That is what I would want.
>How about Terry Schiavo -- people said she should be kept alive no matter how badly injured was her brain. So letting a wounded animial have a few more hours to run in the woods, fueled by adrenaline and endorphines, well that's just more chance to live.
>
In my opinion, Terry Schiavo was not given a decent death. Granted her brain was dead so she didn't feel a thing ... but it was still hypocritical. They wanted her to die yet did not act accordingly ... they used a detour. A shot of morphine would have been sufficient. She would have left in minutes. If the goal is death (as it was with Terry or an animal that you hunt) just don't make the being who is to die suffer if you can avoid it. Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.> And yes, I've euthanized a pet by gunshot. My very humane neighbors asked that I do so. The death that pet suffered was far more humane than the deaths that neighbor caused or witnessed in the employ of the United States military. His stories made abu graib sound like a frat party by comparison.
Humans can be cruel I'm not denying that. Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.
If the gunshot is in the head and is a clean shot then death is instantaneous and this is humane. To me a humane death is a death by whatever form in which the victim does not feel pain (a head shot would accomplish that) or a very minimal amount of pain (like a sub-cu shot) and which leads to a quick death and can be carried out with a very high degree of reliability. In my opinion, its in the departments of speed and reliability that gunshot in the context of hunting fall short of the mark.
>
> How was that pet's death, in a natural setting, flopping for a few seconds after a gunshot to the head after being petted by her favorite human, any less humane than a painful prick to the paw while being held down by strangers on a cold steel table, after a few minutes or hours in a cage in a room full of other frightened animals?Again, a gunshot to the head can be humane. What I meant to say (again, my post was a general one and not directed at you per say) that for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period. As if the suffering of a pet is more important that that of a wild animal.
As a matter of fact I find it even more ironic that we let terminally ill patients linger for months enduring horrible pain when they have no hope of recovery and do not want to keep on living. Our pets get a painless euthanasia but our relatives can't. How messed up is that? To me every human being (not under delusions or whatever) should be free to choose when and how they die and even benefit from medical assitance to do so painlessly
>
> I could go further to explore the ethics of one person or group imposing their values on another, but in the context of this thread, I am more interested in the manner in which values are described, and how that does or does not fulfil the requirements of this site that people not insult others who might not agree with them.
>
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 1:42:24
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 0:12:01
> I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
I read the plain language of your post. I am a reasonably experienced and articulate reader. Beyond responding to what was written, I have had no "reaction".
> Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets.
> > > "Think of what ***you*** would want, then ***have the decency*** of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill."
Can you understand how a person would read that to mean if they do not euthenize their pet in some manner in which they would want to die, they are lacking in decency? If it doesn't mean that, can you explain why are you equating that with having decency?
> Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.Hmmm. I don't understand that am allowed to say here what I find good or commendable for other people to do.
> Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.I don't understand that I am allowed to say who might make a spectacle of anything. A news produceer might feel it their duty to provide the public information about controversial issues, and families might feel it their obligation to teneciously represent thier perception of a family members interests in court and in public venues.
> Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.hmmm. I don't understand that I am allowed to say what is sick and twisted for other people to do. My lack of understanding of my permission to say such things is informed by the thread below this, where were asked not to call people monterous for recruiting suicide bombers.
>
> ... for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period.I have not seen evidence that the great majority of pet owners in the united states or anywhere else A. take their pets to the vet to die or B. also run after animals wounded during a hunt.
> How messed up is that?I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 1:42:24
If one cannot state what one feels about certain things, then what good is a board. Is a discussion not the exchange of views, opinions, arguments?
To me there is a difference between stating an opinion and attacking someone because they have a different opinion than you. For example :
"I find it discriminatory that gay people can't marry". To me thats an opinion.
"If gay people are allowed to marry, doesn't that open the door to polygamous marriages?" To me thats challenging an opinion.
"You're againsts gay marriage, OMG! you are so stupid / evil / etc." To me that is an attack."
From what I understand we are free to post our opinions and to challenge that of others here but not allowed to attack others because of their opinion.
When I write "you" its just a way of writing ... I did not write "so" because I was directing my post to the reader, not you in particular.
When I say "think of what you would want" ... I'm not saying that I hold the truth or that my opinion is somehow superior.
What I am saying is "here, this is MY opinion on that given subject ... this is the reasoning that goes on in MY head which leads me to MY opinion" ... nothing more. The reader remains free to find it relevant, irrelevant or downright stupid.
> > I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
>
> I read the plain language of your post. I am a reasonably experienced and articulate reader. Beyond responding to what was written, I have had no "reaction".
>
> > Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets.
>
> > > > "Think of what ***you*** would want, then ***have the decency*** of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill."
>
> Can you understand how a person would read that to mean if they do not euthenize their pet in some manner in which they would want to die, they are lacking in decency? If it doesn't mean that, can you explain why are you equating that with having decency?
>
>
My view of what is decent is just that ... MY view, the view of Camille Dumont. Nothing more nothing less. The reader remains free to subscribe to my view or not.
> > Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.
>
> Hmmm. I don't understand that am allowed to say here what I find good or commendable for other people to do.
>I don't follow all your posts on here, perhaps you've had weird or contradictory reactions from the administration. But really I don't see how stating an opinion on an industry is against the rules.
Had I stated something like : the meat industry is evil therefore if you work in the meat industry you are evil / bad / whatever. This I could see how it could be interpreted as an attack ... and could, to employ the words of Dr. Bob here, "make people feel demeaned".
>
> > Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.
>
> I don't understand that I am allowed to say who might make a spectacle of anything. A news produceer might feel it their duty to provide the public information about controversial issues, and families might feel it their obligation to teneciously represent thier perception of a family members interests in court and in public venues.
>A news producer may feel whatever he or she likes ... that does not mean that I cannot feel saddened by what was done and shown. Again, I'm not saying that the news people are bad people, I'm saying that the situation, the way in which she died, to me, was a sad spectacle.
>
> > Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.
>
> hmmm. I don't understand that I am allowed to say what is sick and twisted for other people to do. My lack of understanding of my permission to say such things is informed by the thread below this, where were asked not to call people monterous for recruiting suicide bombers.
>
I have not read that thread on suicide bombers. Maybe the whole issue was handled in a peculiar matter.Again, maybe its an issue distinction between stating an opinion and attacking someone who has a different opinion. It might also have to do with the level of language ... or perhaps more appropriately the strength of words employed and to which degree the comments were directed at someone in particular.
> >
> > ... for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period.
>
> I have not seen evidence that the great majority of pet owners in the united states or anywhere else A. take their pets to the vet to die or B. also run after animals wounded during a hunt.
>Maybe because I live in Canada. The vast majority of people here do not own guns (laws on ownership and I think even supply are stricter) and chemicals which might be used for home euthanasia are available only through a vet.
Perhaps this is biased by my own pet-ownership experience. Perhaps things are different for people who, for example live on farms or have access to firearms or care for a large number of animals.
But through the years, all the dogs and cats we've owned, when they became too ill to be treated or their quality of live was too imparied without the chance of improvement, they were taken to the vey where we stayed with them while they were given an overdose of a sedative agent and they died without pain.
>
> > How messed up is that?
>
> I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.
>
Again, this is My opinion. I find that it is messed up that sometime a person is allowed to suffer more than a pet is allowed to suffer.This is based on my experience, my life, what I have seen, the relatives I've had to watch in agony, begging to be allowed to die and even tied up to their beds so they wouldn't rip the tubes that were in them.
I find IT, the situation, the occurence of such suffering messed up. I am in no way saying that people who do not thing the same waht that I do are messed up themselves.
I don't claim to hold the truth, to be morally superior to others in any way ... what I do have and express are personnal opinions. To me, different opinions even contradictory ones can coexist. I would rather that there be people who think the opposite of me, if only to challenge how I think and make me consider my position. It is in the exchange of different views that, to me, critical thinking emerges and flourishes.
A world in which nobody expressed any dissent or where everybody thought the same would be a bit bland no?
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 11:58:32
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
> If one cannot state what one feels about certain things, then what good is a board. Is a discussion not the exchange of views, opinions, arguments?
These are interesting questions. If you find a reliable answer I would be interested to read it. I would think if a person inquired of the admin, on some days, some people would get an answer somewhat to the effect that "That's what a discussion can be but not here."
> To me there is a difference between stating an opinion and attacking someone because they have a different opinion than you. For example :
>
> "I find it discriminatory that gay people can't marry". To me thats an opinion.I would tend to concur, but based on my reading here, and my direct interactions, there is some fine difference between a finding and a statement of a feeling. It doesn't leave room for personal findings, sometimes. I've been told that stating what something is "To me" is not the formal "I-statement" preferred of writers here, and even then, some "I-statements" though I don't know for sure which ones, are not tolerated. Well, the statements are tolerated becasue the administration continues to publish them on the server he rents, but the people who write them are sometimes not afforded as much tolerence as others.
> From what I understand we are free to post our opinions and to challenge that of others here but not allowed to attack others because of their opinion.
A governing concept, not reliably applied as I've been able to measure, is that to "put down" an idea can tend to put down people who hold that idea.
> When I write "you" its just a way of writing ... I did not write "so" because I was directing my post to the reader, not you in particular.That would seema reason to use second person voice, but I am a reader, too. And I or other readers might kill their pets in ways they don't want to die -- I don't want to die held down to a table with a needle in my arm -- but whatever the comparison, measures of traits such as other's decency have sometimes been cited as inappropriate for this board.
> My view of what is decent is just that ... MY view, the view of Camille Dumont. Nothing more nothing less. The reader remains free to subscribe to my view or not.People's implicit views of what might not be decent have not always been tolerated here.
> I don't follow all your posts on here, perhaps you've had weird or contradictory reactions from the administration.Quite possibly.
> I have not read that thread on suicide bombers. Maybe the whole issue was handled in a peculiar matter.
Yes, maybe it was.
> Again, maybe its an issue distinction between stating an opinion and attacking someone who has a different opinion.Someday someone might count all these interventions, but until then I can only say "many" are targeted at people who call a contrary opinion wrong, or actions based on a contrary opinion less than honorable.
>It might also have to do with the level of language ... or perhaps more appropriately the strength of words employed and to which degree the comments were directed at someone in particular.Or whether the admin thinks the person needs what he has said could be seen as a therapeutic intervention. Not addressing someone in particular is often an inadequate device to avoid administrative intervention, though.
> Perhaps this is biased by my own pet-ownership experience.Exactly
> > > How messed up is that?
> >
> > I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.Through the years, the archives show, people have been held accountble not for what they intended, but for strict interpretations of what they wrote. Though prestigious individuals have been cited as offending against the rules, I believe community presitige and allegiance to the administration has also been a factor, nonetheless, the idiom "how messed up is that" conveys a the idea that it refers to something generally messed up.
> I find IT, the situation, the occurence of such suffering messed up. I am in no way saying that people who do not thing the same waht that I do are messed up themselves.And again, if that were the way the rules were consistently enforced, I would have nothing to say about your opinion -- I might exploit it to rile to into some political action whether I totally agree or not. But my attention is held by a cognitive dissonance developed by reading what seemed to me to be inconsistent enforcement. For example, if a person rights "benzos kill brian cells. It is messed up to prescribe benzos" a typical response in my experience would be along the lines of "it can make people who think otherwise feel put down."
> A world in which nobody expressed any dissent or where everybody thought the same would be a bit bland no?And so could a message board where nobody expressed dissent. But a recurring theme here is that "This is not for everybody" and the admin has published here and in professional literature his opinion that there are other places people can go if they want a different environment.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 26, 2005, at 12:04:35
In reply to Re: Did a Texan do anything to you? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 0:20:54
Ok, I'm getting the drift.
You started out with internet hunting - which on the surface seems uncontroversial. How could anyone support that, right?
And then took it a step further to ask - is there any moral or ethical difference between internet hunting and physical hunting.
I believe that there is. The way I view it, hunting over the net is more detached, where physical hunting requires a person to be there, pull the trigger (or whatever), gather the kill, clean it and properly store it. Most people would, by doing that, greater appreciate what it is that they are doing.
I don't believe that hunting is - by definition - immoral. But I do believe that some people do it immorally. I'm just not totally sure where I personally would draw that line - and I'm not even sure a line can be drawn.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 26, 2005, at 13:02:58
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 11:58:32
A few comments - using my observations. Not to be taken as a definitive answer:
-------------------------------------------
> If one cannot state what one feels about certain things, then what good is a board. Is a discussion not the exchange of views, opinions, arguments?These are interesting questions. If you find a reliable answer I would be interested to read it. I would think if a person inquired of the admin, on some days, some people would get an answer somewhat to the effect that "That's what a discussion can be but not here."
ME: Exchanges of differing views is allowed anywhere around here. However, some of the boards lend themselves to this more than others. This one, for example, is more likely to house debates than others - and in fact was put here to keep these type debates here where those who are troubled by debating won't be as exposed.
--------------------------------------------------
I would tend to concur, but based on my reading here, and my direct interactions, there is some fine difference between a finding and a statement of a feeling. It doesn't leave room for personal findings, sometimes. I've been told that stating what something is "To me" is not the formal "I-statement" preferred of writers here, and even then, some "I-statements" though I don't know for sure which ones, are not tolerated. Well, the statements are tolerated becasue the administration continues to publish them on the server he rents, but the people who write them are sometimes not afforded as much tolerence as others.
> From what I understand we are free to post our opinions and to challenge that of others here but not allowed to attack others because of their opinion.
A governing concept, not reliably applied as I've been able to measure, is that to "put down" an idea can tend to put down people who hold that idea.
ME: It's subtle, to be sure. But from what I've seen "I think hunting is disgusting" would be considered to possible extend to 'hunters are disgusting' and "I'm troubled by hunting" wouldn't.
And "I had bad experiences with therapy" is fine, while "I think therapy is a waste of money" isn't - as it implies that anyone in therapy is wasting money.
Another thing that seems to be factored in is the tone of the thread. If it seems to be getting heated the rules might be applied more strictly in order to keep things from escalating out of control.
--------------------------------------------------
> Again, maybe its an issue distinction between stating an opinion and attacking someone who has a different opinion.
Someday someone might count all these interventions, but until then I can only say "many" are targeted at people who call a contrary opinion wrong, or actions based on a contrary opinion less than honorable.
ME: Exactly. Calling a contrary opinion wrong can be seen as a value judgement against the person holding the opinion.There is a *big* difference in saying you disagree with the opinion (we all are entitled to our opinions) and saying it is wrong.
along the same lines you said:
..............
For example, if a person rights "benzos kill brian cells. It is messed up to prescribe benzos" a typical response in my experience would be along the lines of "it can make people who think otherwise feel put down."
ME: this is true - it can. Perhaps benzos are the only thing that work for this person. Different things work for different people and there really isn't a right or wrong in that tyoe situation. So people might take saying their behavior is messed up to be the same as saying they themselves are messed up.
Gotta run - late for the doc.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 19:22:43
In reply to Re: Back to the point » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 26, 2005, at 12:04:35
> Ok, I'm getting the drift.
> You started out with internet hunting - which on the surface seems uncontroversial. How could anyone support that, right?
> And then took it a step further to ask - is there any moral or ethical difference between internet hunting and physical hunting.Yes :-)
That was the general idea...But then I kept on going...
What is the difference between specism and racism?And then in response to the idea that our teeth have been selected for their ability to let us eat meat... I thought that guys had been selected for being bigger / stronger than females so as to better overpower them (help along the reproduction side of things). But if whatever has been selected for is 'natural' and if it is morally acceptable to do whatever has been naturally selected for then how could we say that guys overpowering women is wrong? (I took it to be fairly uncontroversial that it is wrong).
> The way I view it, hunting over the net is more detached, where physical hunting requires a person to be there, pull the trigger (or whatever), gather the kill, clean it and properly store it. Most people would, by doing that, greater appreciate what it is that they are doing.
Ok. But is 'greater appreciation' enough to make it morally acceptable??? I mean, lets say we were looking at hunting black people over the internet as opposed to IRL. Lets say that it is fairly uncontroversial that internet hunting isn't so good. But does it become morally acceptable if people do it in RL and have 'greater appreciation' for it?
The point of that case is that it is supposed to be fairly uncontroversial that there isn't a difference between whether they are hunted IRL or over the internet. There isn't a difference whether there is 'appreciation' or not.
It isn't anything about the attitude of the person who is hunting them - it is the fact that their right to life has been violated.
People are sentient. They have interests.
Animals are sentient. They have interests.
It is thought to be wrong to treat people as mere means to our ends.
We are supposed to allow them to pursue their own goals.
Not do what we want with them with no consideration for their own interests - just because we can.
I don't understand how it can be different in the case of animals.> I don't believe that hunting is - by definition - immoral. But I do believe that some people do it immorally. I'm just not totally sure where I personally would draw that line - and I'm not even sure a line can be drawn.
Ok.
I guess I think that animals have interests and goals and the capacity to suffer and to feel pain.Their interests should (IMO) be taken as seriously as we take the interests of people.
What we stand to gain by hunting them
Does not compare to what they stand to lose.
Thanks for bringing the discussion back round.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 20:51:04
In reply to Re: Back to the point » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 19:22:43
...All the way back in my second year at uni.
I spent the next few years trying to find a defensible difference between the cases.I haven't been able to find a defensible reason why it is ok to eat meat or hunt.
But I didn't even try to become vegetarian till round October last year.
I haven't lasted with that very well.
Still on the look out for a defensible difference...
But I don't think
our teeth
or appreciation
Can do it...;-)
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 21:59:35
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments... » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 20:51:04
Trying in all honesty to avoid either the topic or the propriety of the method of discussion in the context of this board, I can offer that...
Semantically, any philosophical argument that includes "we are supposed" raises questions about whose suppositions are being cited. The syntax introduces a passive/active language problem. It just doesn't say who is acting. Without a declaration of suppositions, the argument can't be processed as an algorithm -- individual comparisons within the argument might be instructive, especially in human terms and certainly for matters of faith, but as a reasonable process, i.e. one where all reasons are declared and theoretically can be reduced to a decision tree, there are undefined steps in the overall process.
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 23:44:59
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments... » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 20:51:04
Perhaps meat eating is a remanent of our origins.
Perhaps because for omnivores, meat represents a quick source of high-calorie food. Perhaps not necessary for our survival (especially given all the modern suplements and alternative protein sources) but thousands of years of evolution where access and consumption of meat increased your chances of survival means that we are biologically geared up to "like" it.
In a way my rats are like that. They are omnivorous. Their diet is mostly meat-free but if a stray bug crawls into the cage of if they encounter one during playtime, right away instincts take over and they do all they can to catch and eat it and will squabble with each other to steal it. They have unlimited food all the time in addition to a selection of fruit, veggies and some dairy daily ... yet when a source of animal protein is available, they sistematically favour that source. They will even take a piece of meat or fish over a piece of pecan or a peanut.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:21:18
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 23:44:59
With respect to *why* we do tend to like it.
But doesn't bear on whether we *should* eat it.:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:29:21
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 21:59:35
Trying in all honesty to make a 'general post' in response to points about *my* post...
> Semantically, any philosophical argument that includes "we are supposed" raises questions about whose suppositions are being cited.
I am assuming that this is the bit that is worrying:
It is thought to be wrong to treat people as mere means to our ends.
We are supposed to allow them to pursue their own goals.So. What is the problem with that?????
>The syntax introduces a passive/active language problem. It just doesn't say who is acting.
People. People are acting / persuing their goals.
>Without a declaration of suppositions,
???
>the argument can't be processed as an algorithm -
???
>- individual comparisons within the argument might be instructive, especially in human terms and certainly for matters of faith, but as a reasonable process, i.e. one where all reasons are declared and theoretically can be reduced to a decision tree, there are undefined steps in the overall process.
?????
You think I have implicit premises?
Do you want me to set up the arguments in standard form???
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:32:09
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:29:21
So.
If you don't want me to post to you
Then please do me the courtesy of not posting to me.
Yeah, you didn't 'add name of previous poster' but they fairly clearly were remarks about my post.I really don't think it is fair that you respond to my posts like that when I am not supposed to post to you.
Please don't post to me.
Please leave me alone.
Posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 1:30:17
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 21:59:35
> Trying in all honesty to avoid either the topic
What topic is that, I asked myself, rereading my own words. Oh, yeh -- the topic of the thread. I'm trying to respond to the structure of the argument -- not the propriety, just the structure.Anyway, I probably negated any formal opertunity to ask somebody not to post to me in toto when I informally suggested we just try to disengage in this thread and one other. And I said if I get caught up in it again, it's my problem. Now it seems mi problema es nuestro problema.
Para cualquier razón, no realicé que nadie posee el asunto, solamente alguien pudo demandar la estructura
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