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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 75 to 99 of 127. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2004, at 1:25:36
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Bling Bling on December 13, 2004, at 23:15:57
> bigots who want to group homosexuals with pedophiles.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. I asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 7:16:05
In reply to Re: Gay Marriage » ed_uk, posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 11:56:10
Ed, you said, >Regarding God.... if there is a God I would not like to presume what 'its' view on gay marriage would be. Such information cannot be found in Leviticus.>
MKB said.....Since you are the one who mentioned Leviticus, I would like to make you aware of this verse from Leviticus 18:22ff-
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination...for by all these things the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you..."
My reply....Yes, I know that it says this in Leviticus.
How can anyone seriously claim that this is the view of God? As I said, if there is a God, I would not like to presume what 'its' view would be. Leviticus is the product of man, it was not written by God.
Ed.
Posted by Snoozin on December 14, 2004, at 10:31:36
In reply to Re: Gay people, posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 7:16:05
Oh, I know this is a hot topic, and forgive me for jumping in.
I know the idea of condoning gay marriage is very weird to a lot of people. But if you can remove yourself from the *weirdness* factor, I think gay marriage makes a lot of sense on so many levels, all of which are good for our society.
I think gay marriage actually validates and strengthens the institution of marriage, promoting the idea of fidelity, family, and monogamy, regardless of sexual orientation. The family looks different than what we are used to, but it still promotes a family unit. And I think a family unit is desirable and preferable in our society.
The whole point of marriage, under English common law, was to provide for inheritance and property rights. It was a legal union, kind of like creating a corporation, but on a social vs. business level. In the eyes of the law, a married couple is one entity for all legal purposes. To provide legitimate heirs vs. illegitimate ones.
The religious side of marriage was nd is an entirely separate issue. I don't think that permitting legal, civil marriage for gay couples would force churches to marry couples they didn't want to. I know my church won't marry people who aren't members, and I'm sure many churches wouldn't marry gay couples even if it were legal.
But by making gay marriage legal, or even civil unions legal, we would help reduce the number of uninsured persons. We would create safe financial environments for children of gay couples (regardless of what you think the moral environment might be; I know many straight married couples who create a horrible moral environment, including my own parents,). We would be encouraging fidelity and monogamy.
I don't think it devalues traditional marriage between a man and a woman at all. First off, gay people are a very small percentage of our population. Not all gays would actually marry. Their children would be raised to value marriage as an institution, which I personally think is a good thing.
I wish people could at least try and put aside their reservations on this issue and explore why it may actually be a *good* thing.
Just my measly 2 cents.
Susan
Posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2004, at 10:42:17
In reply to Re: Using the Bible » Gabbix2, posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 21:43:32
I'm a firm believer that everyone has a right to his own opinion, even if it is a minority opinion.
The problem I have with this issue is that there is a large group insistent on forcing their opinion onto the rest of the population (by constitutional ammendment, no less!)
And there are folks that will distort things to prove their point (not talking about anyone here, mainly the pseudo-conservitive talking heads.) Activist judges in Massachusetts? The way I heard the story (from reading news reports) was that the court there said that current laws banning gay marriage were against the state constitution. And it said that if that were to be changed it would have to be changed by the legislature or state ammendment. It sounds like a simple law decision, but from listening to certain media you would swear they just rewrote law.
I never hear anyone discuss the pros/cons of the issue as it relates to public policy. Again - I'm talking about the media - newspapers, tv, internet, etc. Wouldn't it be nice if babblers could rise above that?
So - taking the term "marriage" out of the equation, what are we really talking about? These are the things I've personally seen that are issues to be resolved (I'm using him/his in the generic sense, like mankind) Most of these have to do with the assumed rights <and responsibilities> that married couples have:
1) Next-of-kinship. If one partner is in intensive care in the hospital it isn't uncommon for his family to barge in, make all the decisions and ban the well parner from even seeing him. This happens often, especially when the sick partner's family hasn't accepted their sexual identity.
2) Insurance - companies offer insurance to 'spouses' but gay couples need not apply (yes, I know some companies have it, but it isn't the norm)
3) Survivorship. Even with a will, there is no guarantee that the deceased partner's wishes will be fulfilled. Burial arrangements can be a real hot spot.
4) Custody rights. Gay couples *do* become parents. Women use artificial insemination and both genders adopt - often older kids that wouldn't otherwise have a home. Because of current laws/norms only one person is listed as the mommy or daddy. If a relationship ends for some reason - 'divorce' or death - the other partner can lose the right to even visit.
5) Court testimony. Law says one spouse can not be forced to testify against another. Not true for gay couples.
I could go on and on, but these are enough to chew on for now.
Posted by MKB on December 14, 2004, at 11:14:47
In reply to Gay Marriage, posted by Snoozin on December 14, 2004, at 10:31:36
Just as a reference in understanding the opposing view, I would suggest reading:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/938xpsxy.asp?pg=1The article goes beyond what anyone "thinks" to providing little known facts important to a comprehensive understanding of the issue, which I do not yet claim to possess.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2004, at 11:53:45
In reply to Re: The other side, posted by MKB on December 14, 2004, at 11:14:47
I've read the article. In my opinion it doesn't even pretend to address a full understanding of the issue - the rights and obligations proferred by marriage (or whatever you call it.)
I don't see where it offers any facts on the topic either. It certainly reads like an opinion piece to me. And none of it even addresses the gay marriage issue itself - it makes a leap to polygamy up front and the rest of the article is about non-monogamous relationships. Nobody has mentioned an ammendment against polygamy yet, that I know of.
To date I haven't seen a logical argument against gay marriage, or even one that includes any science. I would be very interested in one, myself.
I also haven't heard of anyone trying to save "family values" by doing anything to support the traditional family. Poor people don't get married because they might lose welfare, elders shack up to save their retirement benefits. I've thought of getting a divorce myself - just to reduce my income tax bill!
Why always a stick, never a carrot? (That's a rhetorical question. It would require a wholesale group attitude shift to fix this.)
Posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2004, at 11:55:18
In reply to Re: Gay people, posted by ed_uk on December 14, 2004, at 7:16:05
Yes, but that's an argument that will never be resolved.
Best to work in our worldly confines, right?
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2004, at 17:18:18
In reply to Re: not using the Bible » MKB, posted by AuntieMel on December 14, 2004, at 10:42:17
> I wish people could at least try and put aside their reservations on this issue and explore why it may actually be a *good* thing.
>
> Snoozin> The problem I have with this issue is that there is a large group insistent on forcing their opinion onto the rest of the population (by constitutional ammendment, no less!)
>
> AuntieMelPlease respect the views of others. Those who think it's a good thing could also explore why it might be bad... And don't both sides favor legislation of some type? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by henrietta on December 14, 2004, at 19:58:56
In reply to Re: The other side, posted by MKB on December 14, 2004, at 11:14:47
i am a heterosexual in a monogamous marriage for over 30 years. no infidelidty on either side no f$$$ing of animals children or monks. for the life of me i can't understand how the sanctification of commitment, love, and life-sharing of two consenting adults threatens my marriage, yours,or whatever is meant by "the institution". Can you please explain to me how it is a bad thing for people who love one another and want to share their lives, want to make a COMMITMENT (aren't we constantly told that commitment is a difficult and valuable thing?), to be allowed to make that morally valued choice? I'm not being sarcastic, argumentative, or political, here. I truly don't understand why people are so threatened by this. Love and acceptance are so hard to find in the world that I think we should open our arms and hearts to anyone fortunate enough to find these gifts. Their consequent well-being can only add to the well-being of the cosmos, to the dimunition of war, hatred, anger, and to graciousness in your grocery store line .
And, on an even more practical note: Do you realize that two people who have loved each other for 20-30-40 years, who have taken care of one another, who know one another deeply, know each other's every desire, can be separated at crisis time, in the hospital, dying, by parents they haven't seen since adolescence? By parents , even, who have abused them emotionally, physically? That the beloved partner can be denied access to the hospital room while the parents, not seen or heard from in decades, are allowed free reign over life and death decisions, regardless of the dying one's wishes?
I am trying very hard to understand how this stance is "moral", or has anything to do with the teachings of christ. Please enlighten me.
thank you.
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 14, 2004, at 22:58:23
In reply to Re: The other side, posted by henrietta on December 14, 2004, at 19:58:56
Wow Henrietta. If I could I'd reach out and hug you whether you wanted me too or not. I'm not gay either, but I'm single, and well, I don't have in many respects what could be seen as the typical lifestyle.
To have someone who's been married 30 years, and could easily choose to pretend these issues don't exist speak out like that, is powerful, as is your writing. I agree it's NOT loving that's the problem. And I find it amazing that
people will turn a blind eye to having their children watch two men kill each other on T.V
but (and I've actually heard this said) fear that they will be negatively affected for life if they see two men kiss.
Posted by MKB on December 15, 2004, at 0:09:43
In reply to Re: please respect the views of others, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2004, at 17:18:18
If there is gay marriage, there will also be gay divorce. If 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce, will homosexuals do any better? I don't think so, since many heterosexuals work harder to hold their marriage together for the sake of their biological children.
If there is gay divorce, there will also be issues of alimony, child support, visitation, division of property. Since medical science as yet has not enabled two people of the same gender to have a biological child, there will often be 3 parents fighting over a child.
If the motivation is financial benefits that come with gay marriage, there will eventually be single people who want to form partnerships just for that reason, when sex is not even involved.
This is going to put a tremendous strain on our court system and it will not be cheap. Laws will have to be rewritten.
Some lawyers are already pushing for polygamy to be legal, yes, even in Canada.
Eventually, marriage will become a moot point. It will, in the end, be of no benefit to anyone.
Let's leave religion out of it.
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 15, 2004, at 1:24:35
In reply to Re: Pandora's Box, posted by MKB on December 15, 2004, at 0:09:43
> If there is gay marriage, there will also be gay divorce. If 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce, will homosexuals do any better? I don't think so,
It's quite likely that homosexuals will "do better" as there is less pressure on them to get married in the first place, the ones who decide to make this commitment have the opportunity to put great thought into it.
And why should they have to "do better" than heterosexuals to have the same legal rights?
This is about the equality of two human beings who love each other.> since many heterosexuals work harder to hold their marriage together for the sake of their biological children.
And many heterosexuals make the mistake of getting married in the first place because of pregnancy.
This is not about who behaves in what way.
You could take individual heterosexual couples and using this same format of argument to decide who should be allowed to get married and who should not. Justifying the legal denial of certain rights to citizens, which is an enormous thing, must be made on more than opinion.
To be seen as more than opinion the argument can't be applied selectively.
>
> If there is gay divorce, there will also be issues of alimony, child support, visitation, division of property. Since medical science as yet has not enabled two people of the same gender to have a biological child, there will often be 3 parents fighting over a child.
>There are already often 3 parents fighting over a child. Is that enough of a reason to deny homosexual union? We don't want more divorces, we don't want any more custody battles. Okay, then it's equally legitimate to say we should deny the rights of young women to have babies, and get married. There are already too many marriages ending in divorce, and we don't want to create any more situations wherein there are three parents fighting over a child.
> If the motivation is financial benefits that come with gay marriage, there will eventually be single people who want to form partnerships just for that reason, when sex is not even involved.
There are many heterosexuals who already get married for reasons other than sex.
> This is going to put a tremendous strain on our court system and it will not be cheap. Laws will have to be rewritten.
>
Laws had to be rewritten to abolish slavery.If you were against abortion, and the abortion laws were changed would you question the strain it would put on the court system?
If you were innocent of a crime, and yet convicted, and it took 20 years to prove your innocence would you question the strain it put on the court system?
> Some lawyers are already pushing for polygamy to be legal, yes, even in Canada.That is simply not applicable to this situation however IMO I have no interest in polygamy but it doesn't horrify me. There are many terrible things done by heterosexual couples with children that frighten me far more.
The state of marriage is always changing, it always has been.
>
> Eventually, marriage will become a moot point. It will, in the end, be of no benefit to anyone.Marriage was originally a way for a man to own a woman, she became chattel, anything she owned became his, he knew any children she bore were his own and he had the right to beat her. That's the history of marriage, it had nothing to do with male monogamy, (she of course had to be monagamous) It had nothing to do with a loving union unless by chance. Some would argue that we had little to lose.
Posted by henrietta on December 15, 2004, at 8:25:14
In reply to Re: The other side » henrietta, posted by Gabbix2 on December 14, 2004, at 22:58:23
Thank you, Gabbix2. That means a lot to me.
hen
Posted by AuntieMel on December 15, 2004, at 8:39:26
In reply to Re: please respect the views of others, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2004, at 17:18:18
That is exactly what I am trying to do - explore the issue without too much emotion and use logical arguments. I would be more than happy to hear any logical arguments, and would (I swear) explore them.
I thought I made it pretty clear in that post that I was referring to the media mostly, and that I hoped we babblers could do better.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 15, 2004, at 9:05:15
In reply to Re: Pandora's Box, posted by MKB on December 15, 2004, at 0:09:43
Sure, there will be gay divorce. There are splits right now and they tie up courts even more because there are no "rules" to go by. And the one person considered the "parent" could completely shut out the other one. Is this in the best interest of the child? Aren't the children the most important part of the equation?
Yes, many heterosexual couples hold marriages together "for the sake of the children <adopted ones too!>." My parents did it, and it was a miserable place to be. I'm convinced that having one happy parent is infinately better than two miserable ones.
I've been married, more or less happily, for 22 years - my second marriage. I had one child I was forced to give up for adoption, one with my first husband and one with my second. And my sister is gay with three kids from a marriage before she came out. I've pretty much seen it from all sides.
Will marriage become a moot point? I doubt it. Because we are talking about human beings, not corporations, and as humans we want to live in a home with love and family, two cats in the yard, the whole bit. It just seems unfair to me to limit that dream to heterosexuals.
Posted by Bobby on December 15, 2004, at 9:10:41
In reply to Re: Pandora's Box » MKB, posted by Gabbix2 on December 15, 2004, at 1:24:35
you could marry me. I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Would that be moral? :)
Posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 9:46:27
In reply to If I were single » Gabbix2, posted by Bobby on December 15, 2004, at 9:10:41
Hi Bobby :-)
Do you mean that you are a man who is attracted to women but you want to be a woman?
Ed.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 15, 2004, at 10:13:00
In reply to Re: If I were single » Bobby, posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 9:46:27
Oy, too confusing.
My shrink asked me if I thought I had any gender issues. I've always preferred male conversation, "male" career choices, etc. I'd much rather talk football (soccer) than shoes.
Problem: I also get turned on by men. Puts a crimp in the 'are you a lesbian' question.
Posted by MKB on December 15, 2004, at 10:22:48
In reply to Re: Pandora's Box, posted by MKB on December 15, 2004, at 0:09:43
It is not always necessary to marry in order to get legal protections. Many couples, gay and heterosexual, prefer not to marry, but they can still get legal protections in many areas.
"Many (though not all) of the rights, privileges, and protections that married couples receive are also available to people in unmarried relationships, although for unmarried relationships they don't happen automatically. People in unmarried relationships can work with a lawyer to prepare the documents listed below, or use one of several excellent do-it-yourself legal guides. Many lawyers advise people in unmarried relationships to prepare (explanations for each are below):
1. A durable power of attorney for healthcare (or healthcare proxy)
2. A living together (or domestic partnership) agreement
3. A will
4. A durable power of attorney for financial management"from www.unmarried.org
Posted by Bobby on December 15, 2004, at 10:27:48
In reply to Re: If I were single » Bobby, posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 9:46:27
Don't take me too seriously Ed. I've no desire to be a woman but you could pass me the Quaaludes and some Heroin.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 15, 2004, at 11:50:16
In reply to Re: Pandora's Box, posted by MKB on December 15, 2004, at 10:22:48
Yes, this is true. Legally, if you have the foresight (how many people don't even have a will!) you can create many safeguards.
The jury is still out, though, on how well they stand up. Sure, you might eventually win in court, but if the hospital won't let you see your partner, much less let you make crucial medical decisions, does it really make a difference?
And there have been multiple stories of judges refusing to consider a mother for custody of a child in a (heterosexual) divorce if the mother has just come out.
However, you are correct that, with good lawyers, a degree of civil protection can be had.
There are still a few that the best lawyers can't fix, the court testimony issue being one.
But we all know that, to most people, marriage is a powerful symbol of commitment. It just doesn't seem fair to me that it is only abailable to heterosexuals.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 15, 2004, at 11:51:54
In reply to Re: If I were single » ed_uk, posted by Bobby on December 15, 2004, at 10:27:48
"I've no desire to be a woman" begs the Seinfield "not that there's anything wrong with that"
Posted by ed_uk on December 15, 2004, at 13:30:42
In reply to Re: If I were single » ed_uk, posted by Bobby on December 15, 2004, at 10:27:48
Sorry, I don't have any Quaaludes or heroin!
Ed.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 15, 2004, at 18:15:55
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » Jai Narayan, posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 23:40:48
wow, that is so cool.
congratulations, love at first sight....nice.
Jai
Posted by KaraS on December 15, 2004, at 22:06:25
In reply to Re: please be civil » Jai » MKB » Bling » KaraS » Gabbix2, posted by Dr. Bob on December 13, 2004, at 22:34:26
> > democracy has lost.
> >
> > Jai
>
> > I am going to make some statements that include generalizations based on the posts I've seen on this board.
> >
> > I am continually stunned by the vicious, unfounded, sensational, personal attacks on our President. They sound hysterical and mentally unbalanced to me.
> >
> > MKB
>
> > It's very sad that all the carnage in Iraq is for the benefit of buisnesses & shareholders in the US & UK.
> >
> > Bling Bling
>
> > I think Bush is the most divisive President we've ever had.
> >
> > KaraS
>
> > > Just curious...are you in favor of institutionalized murder?
> >
> > ahhh, the old just curious, which is sadly, rarely a sincere effort to hear anothers views, or a desire to get to know them better
> >
> > Gabbix2
>
> Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or exaggerate or overgeneralize.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> I thought those were good explanations of what people stood for. It may at some point be better to agree to disagree than to try to convert the other side...
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobDr. Bob,
I can't believe that you are finding fault with that statement I made. I was trying very hard to be civil when writing this post. That one sentence of mine isn't attacking anyone's views. IMHO it's just expressing a sentiment that BOTH sides of the political spectrum would probably agree with. What other president has caused this much polarization?I tried very hard not to slam anyone for their beliefs. I'm in shock - that's all I can say here.
Kara
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