![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on February 21, 2008, at 14:20:16
I know that this has come up recently, and I just experienced it myself. In posting on the Medications board, I suggested to a poster that psychotherapy might be helpful.
And then proceeded to write another paragraph to say that it wasn't a suggestion that anything was wrong with him/her, that I knew others had different opinions about it, that I didn't mean to suggest that my way was the only way, etc...
For me, I don't think my problem is with the civility guidelines per se. I can't quite put my finger on what I was nervous about, beyond the fear of how my words would be taken. It seems as though a number of people have reacted to my suggestions of therapy lately, and I'm not sure how best to express my belief that it can be helpful even for biologically based difficulties. I'm not sure how to express my suggestions, while conveying my respect for differing viewpoints.
Maybe it would be productive to start a discussion about positive, supportive ways to express our beliefs in a manner supportive to differing beliefs? Or maybe we could offer suggestions of ways to give advice that clearly express that we're not saying it's the only way to address the problem?
I don't know. I just felt uncomfortable when I realized how intimidated I was about posting, and thought I'd say something about it...
Posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 14:53:32
In reply to Intimidated about posting..., posted by Racer on February 21, 2008, at 14:20:16
>Or maybe we could offer suggestions of ways to give advice that clearly express that we're not saying it's the only way to address the problem?
Uhm. Clearly express it, as in the opening of your post write: This isn't the only way to possibly address the problem, but I think ....blah, blah. Or, you could write at the end of your post : What do others think, or There may be differing opinions.
Really though if you've expressed yourself relatively inoffensively, you cannot help how someone will interpret or react to what you've written. And even if you do write your viewpoint strongly, that is fine as long as you are not attacking anyone personally and it's within the guidelines. Again, up to the reader to control their reaction as much as it is the writer to watch what they are writing.
Posted by MidnightBlue on February 21, 2008, at 16:41:06
In reply to Intimidated about posting..., posted by Racer on February 21, 2008, at 14:20:16
Racer,
Read my post above. I probably erase 25-30% of my posts. I write, edit, re-read all of them at least two or three times. I apply the same standard to Babble mail.
MB
P.S. This one almost didn't make it, and has been heavily edited.
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 17:06:45
In reply to Re: Intimidated about posting... » Racer, posted by MidnightBlue on February 21, 2008, at 16:41:06
I probably ditch at least that many of my posts. And I do heavily edit and rewrite. It even shows in my posts, because I'll forget to make complementary grammar changes sometimes.
Not so much because of the civility guidelines, as because of the intent behind the civility guidelines. I wonder if I'm wording things sensitively, if I've allowed for my own errors or misconceptions, if the person I'm posting to is ready to hear what I'm posting, if what I'm posting is merely in compliance with the civility guidelines or is in the spirit of the civility guidelines as well, if what I say reflects what I meant to say, and if what I mean to say really should be said at all. I examine my feelings a bit to see if I feel really angry, and if I do I examine my post a few more times, then usually erase it and come back to it later. Because if I'm feeling uncivil, then I probably shouldn't be posting because that is really likely to leak out.
Everyone is talking about how the civility guidelines keep them from posting, and I just really don't understand. No one here wants to block anyone. No one gets blocked without warning. And usually warnings immediately preceding the block, although that sometimes isn't true of Dr. Bob.
I'm more likely not to post when I worry whether people will be as anxious to be respectful of me as I am to be respectful of them.
Some civility guidelines I do not understand completely, and some rulings I may not agree with, but in general I understand and appreciate the spirit behind the guidelines. Dr. Bob wants to foster respectful discussion. What is so horrible about that? I really really don't get it. I don't get why anyone wouldn't want a respectful environment where people care about hurting each other. I go to other websites, ones even on the most innocuous topics, and I can't believe how people talk to each other, and why anyone would want to engage in discussion there. Maybe I'm sheltered, or maybe I'm whatever the negative word for that is. I don't know. But I don't get it. I never have gotten it.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 18:46:15
In reply to Re: Intimidated about posting..., posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 17:06:45
> I probably ditch at least that many of my posts. And I do heavily edit and rewrite. It even shows in my posts, because I'll forget to make complementary grammar changes sometimes.
>
>polite snippage<I think there is an important point in all of this, something that maybe many people miss or don't know how to utilize. I learn't much about this technique in social work. That is, posting 'options' without sounding condescending about them. i.e. Not presenting them as the 'this is the best choice for you, so do it' kind of thing or suggesting "everyone has told you to do this.X.."..leaving the poster to feel guilty. As a social worker and counselor, these concern me. Heck, maybe we should have a board dedicated to counseling-type listening skills! lol. I am all for it, heh. I do believe people mean very well, but there are lots of techniques in listening skills that can go very wrong. And no, Dinah, just because I am answering your post does not mean I am 'targeting' you here, at all, nor anybody else in particular. I am just trying to make a general, very broad comment.
One key component is to act/write with very little of 'you' in mind, and putting yourself almost 99 percent in the other person's shoes. That means forget about 'changing' them and the.."If they just would do this.." thing. We use paraphrasing in social work, which is reflecting back what a person has said, and it is from that, that you can pick and choose possible options. Additional options from your own knowledge of course are great, but they should be presented in a gentle, least intrusive manner, and most of all not arouse negative feelings in someone.
In my work in Addictions, I can give some good examples. When somebody came into my office, the idea is not to be 'pragmatic', or 'solve a problem' in a one hour visit. I never said you have to do 'this and this'. What I had to do was remove as much of my ego as possible, and sort of transcend, put myself 'in their shoes'. No matter what I thought of the 'values' behind their behaviour, 'bad' or 'wrong'. That was not for me to judge. Once I got in their 'context', and didn't assign 'values' to their actions, could we then use what the client has said to me as a roadmap to getting further help. The point being, I would be paraphrasing, and using clarification, using their, not my, ideas about where they wanted to go.
So, that concludes today's Social Work 101 class...LOL...I know, I am "full of it"....but it's nice to be able to contribute in my area of knowledge, say where others have with medications and such. I will try to post some more resources.
Best,
Jay (The Mentally Ill Social Worker!!!..ahhhh!) lol
Posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 18:51:09
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 18:46:15
Posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 18:52:06
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 18:46:15
Oops. Let's try that again.
Thanks, Jay. Your post was interesting.
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 19:05:10
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 18:46:15
It didn't occur to me that you were talking about me, Jay.
It never occurs to me that I know what's best for *anyone* to do. Usually even myself.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 19:48:38
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 19:05:10
> It didn't occur to me that you were talking about me, Jay.
>
> It never occurs to me that I know what's best for *anyone* to do. Usually even myself.
>((((Dinah)))))
It sounds to me in what you are saying is that you feel disappointed, maybe as being part of the administration, about the politics that go on, on the board. I've presented some material I hope folks will read, and will bring some positive light for everybody. I believe it can be a win-win situation.
It seams on the board, we weather some bad times, but good times eventually as well. For me, with any grievances I have these days, and I certainly don't agree with Dr. Bob on quite a few things, instead of posting it on the boards, I email him directly. I'd highly encourage others to do the same. (Or use the 'Notify' button with it's guidelines and such.) I know you don't need to be told this Dinah..;-)
What goes up....will come down, and this board is so immensely popular, there is no way it is just going to 'die'. I am sorry some people feel that way. Anyhow, that's just IMHO....
Would love to read more comments..
Best,
Jay
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on February 21, 2008, at 20:08:44
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 19:48:38
Thanks Jay,
with your counselling and social work experience you'd be a wonderful voice to have on the /psychology/ board.your post was very thoughtful and informative
-ll
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 20:43:43
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on February 21, 2008, at 19:48:38
> It sounds to me in what you are saying is that you feel disappointed, maybe as being part of the administration, about the politics that go on, on the board.
I don't think that's what I'm saying. But I'm not sure what you mean by that, so I'm not sure. I'm really not aware of any politics going on, but maybe I'm just not understanding.
One of the main reasons I've stayed here all this time is that I genuinely like Dr. Bob and his vision of Babble.
Posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2008, at 16:36:05
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 20:43:43
I find myself going back immediately lots of times and posting apolgies as I don't know how someone else will take a post that sometimes is merely a question. It's interpretation I feel. See had to think about that word feel. I'm sure I'll eventually quit cause sometimes anxiety in me only is increased. Go to bed saying I'll be blocked in the morning. Maybe why I don't sleep? Love Phillipa
Posted by star008 on February 23, 2008, at 16:08:07
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2008, at 16:36:05
it does get a little old, doesn't it?? you have to have the mindset of not caring if you are blocked or not.. there are other sites that don't seem to me IMHO to be quite as much as a dictatorship
Posted by Racer on February 24, 2008, at 7:27:04
In reply to Re: Intimidated about posting..., posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 17:06:45
Actually, I guess I wasn't clear in my first post. It's not the civility rules that I've been feeling intimidated by, although I admit I'm still learning both to control my temper on the board and the subtleties of I statements.
And I'm far too tired and half-here to try to explain what I did mean, without risking offense to others.
As far as the civility guidelines go, I find them helpful. I've learned a lot about communication which I've put to work in other areas of my life, and have found them valuable. I have also found them to offer a measure of safety, for the most part. (Not to say that I've never experienced hurt feelings, but again -- too tired to say anything about that.)
I had more to say, but I'm thinking bed is a much smarter option. I am only up because my husband turned the thermostat to about 600 degrees Fahrenheit and I woke up baking... Now I'm going to go try to sleep for a while. Half an hour before my alarm sings... Joy...
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2008, at 19:12:49
In reply to Re: Intimidated..good posting 'hygiene'}}All + » Phillipa, posted by star008 on February 23, 2008, at 16:08:07
> you have to have the mindset of not caring if you are blocked or not..
That's one possible mindset. Another is to care and to try to avoid being blocked. Which might lead to hurt, but also to learning.
> there are other sites that don't seem to me IMHO to be quite as much as a dictatorship
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others (such as those who choose this site). It tends to be more conducive to harmony to talk about how you feel than what someone else did, for example, to use an I-statement like "I feel powerless and oppressed" instead of a you-statement like "you're a dictator".
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by star008 on February 25, 2008, at 21:27:45
In reply to Re: please be sensitive » star008, posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2008, at 19:12:49
i feel powerless and oppressed!!!! I avoid being hurt if do not care either way if I am blocked or not. There is enough hurt in my life and I don't feel tht hurt from a website is helpful to me.
I choose this site too and found it to be helpful for a lot of things and I am glad that it is here for those who enjoy it and am not being disrespectful to those who like it here. My viewpoints are only my viewpoints. for me Babble is a sad place to visit at times. Too much hurt.
I do not come to babble to learn. I learn in therapy and other places. I came to babble for support and to support others.
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2008, at 2:41:30
In reply to Re: please be sensitive I FEEL OPPRESSED » Dr. Bob, posted by star008 on February 25, 2008, at 21:27:45
>
> I do not come to babble to learn. I learn in therapy and other places. I came to babble for support and to support others.I have found a lot of support here at Babble, and I have learned a lot, too, which I consider equally valuable.
Sometimes support may not mean responding directly to something you find offensive, and sometimes support does not mean stepping in to defend a friend yourself. Sometimes support here might mean using the notification system to report a post, and allowing one of the deputies to take administrative action. Or it might mean posting a message of support to the person you'd like to defend, without mentioning the post you found offensive.
I know that it can be hard here, and I know that sometimes the policies feel unfair. I feel bad when I see generous people stepping in to defend friends, only to have administrative action taken against them. That happens because not taking action on those posts would be inconsistent enforcement of the civility guidelines, and that wouldn't be fair to anyone. Believe me, I know it's hard not to take action in those cases. I nearly posted something in defense of a special friend of mine a week or so ago, but realized halfway through a post filled with invective and vituperation that I was doing nothing useful -- the poster in question had been blocked, and what I was writing would only lead to more heightened emotions, more stress, more problems. Instead, I posted a message to my friend, telling her that I cared about her, and wishing her strength and healing. That may not seem like the best way to defend her, but I think it turns the focus away from the negative, and towards the most important aspect of what I hoped to do -- express my affection and support, turn the focus back to my friend and her needs.
I hope you won't leave Babble over this, and I hope you can come to see the value in the civility guidelines and the consistent enforcement of them.
Peace.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.