![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by All Done on January 21, 2007, at 22:25:01
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Dinah, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 20:22:30
Fallen,
I guess I just want to say that adding "I feel" to the beginning of a sentence does not necessarily make it an acceptable "I" statement under Dr. Bob's civility guidelines.
For example, can you see the difference between the two statements:
I feel Poster X was hurtful to me.
vs.
I feel hurt by Poster X's words.
The first statement is in effect calling Poster X a hurtful person. The second statement refers to *my* reaction to whatever Poster X wrote.
I don't know if this helps at all, but it's my understanding of "I" statements and how Dr. Bob might like to see them, FWIW.
Laurie
> Oh you are so right Dinah . How should I have put it so that YOU would not issue a PBC? Are you`feeling putdown or accused? I am so sorry.
>
> As I DID just state how I FEEL based in HFs statements that that is how she felt YES I will ask Dr Bob to look this over...But thank you so much for pointing this out.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 22:50:04
In reply to Re: 'I' statements » Fallen4MyT, posted by All Done on January 21, 2007, at 22:25:01
Great examples and explanation!
namaste
gg
PS: Go Colts! ;)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 23:05:30
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 15:57:33
> >>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
>
> Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.I think it's important for all of us to keep in mind that no one has to take anyone else's advice, and no one has to even change if they don't wish to. As much as it might be painful and/or frustrating for others, folks do have the right to have maladaptive thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. So in the modified example here, I would view the "broken record" of continuing to suggest the same thing as being pressure, but not the repetition of the thoughts about harming oneself.
I also think there's a difference between suggesting a course of action and insisting on one, so I agree it's quite a subjective call.
What has helped me in similar situations is to pay attention to boundaries. I have to remind myself that I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings, thoughts, or behavior, even if the other suggests I am. I have to remind myself not to respond as if I am, too, but rather try to stay more objective.
It's sure as heck not always easy, though.
namaste
gg
Posted by zenhussy on January 21, 2007, at 23:08:27
In reply to Re: helping, posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 23:05:30
>>I have to remind myself not to respond as if I am, too, but rather try to stay more objective.
It's sure as heck not always easy, though.<<
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:21:43
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 15:57:33
Babble does not offer therapy. I see my hands as being tied. If someone I knew was suicidal, I would urge them to get help in real life ASAP. If my "helping" is seen as pressure, then I feel silenced & will no longer offer help to people who appear to me to be be asking for that help.
The FAQ has explicit statements about seeking help IRL and getting the help you need. What is the point of the FAQ if some things are arbitrarily followed?
Cyber hugs will not prevent death.
Posted by zenhussy on January 22, 2007, at 10:59:55
In reply to Re: helping - suicide, posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:21:43
>>Cyber hugs will not prevent death.<<
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 11:35:21
In reply to nor have they, more than once, sadly » one woman cine, posted by zenhussy on January 22, 2007, at 10:59:55
I feel somewhat flummoxed by the idea of offering help as "pressure". This is the only way to help I know how to give online, & that is to seek help IRL.
What can be seen as supportive in the face of impending suicide? I have no way of knowing if the threats are true or not. It feels that by *not* telling someone to get IRL would be colluding in a self-harm.
What about the case of yelling "fire!" in a crowded movie theater? The intent is may not be the same, but the effect is - IMO. The poster is saying they need help, that metaphorically, they are on fire. The fire needs to be put out - it is not time to sit idly by, though -
I'm not sure how to proceed...
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 15:16:13
In reply to Blocked » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 18:20:49
> I'll let Dr. Bob set the length.
According to the current system:
previous block: 3 weeks
period of time since previous block: 3 weeks
uncivil toward a particular individual or group: yes
particularly uncivil: no
different type of incivility: no
clearly didn't understand PBC and made effort to reply: no
provoked: yes
uncivil in multiple posts at same time: no
already archived: noIf we take 3 weeks, divide by 10, and round, that's a reduction of 0 weeks. If we apply that to her previous block, that's 3 - 0 = 3 weeks. And if we double that, that's 6 weeks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 15:16:17
In reply to Re: Please be civil-- sorry » Dinah, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 19:17:20
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 16:08:25
In reply to Re: helping - suicide, posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:21:43
> If my "helping" is seen as pressure, then I feel silenced & will no longer offer help to people who appear to me to be be asking for that help.
>
> one woman cineOK, but might there be a way to encourage and help that wouldn't be seen as pressure?
> I'd hope my friend would think that my life/health is worth saving and react according to the level of seriousness my distress merited. And I think they would make a call to someone
>
> ElThanks for giving this some thought. Maybe they wouldn't just *think* you were worth saving, but *tell* you that, too. What if they didn't know who to call, what would you want them to do then?
--
> it suggests that posters engaging in advice broken-record-mode feel a less signigicant type of upset or hurt, than broken record distress posters.
>
> [my friend] would be scared sh*tless that I was talking in such extremes
>
> ElThose giving advice certainly might feel upset or hurt or scared. If so, maybe they could also ask for support for themselves? Maybe without mentioning the other posters, since that might lead them to feel blamed, like Fallen suggested that those who feel suicidal because of other posters not say who:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061228/msgs/723508.html
Hmm, maybe I should merge these threads...
Bob
Posted by muffled on January 22, 2007, at 16:17:01
In reply to Re: the length, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 15:16:13
> > I'll let Dr. Bob set the length.
>
> According to the current system:
>
> previous block: 3 weeks
> period of time since previous block: 3 weeks
> uncivil toward a particular individual or group: yes
> particularly uncivil: no
> different type of incivility: no
> clearly didn't understand PBC and made effort to reply: no
> provoked: yes
> uncivil in multiple posts at same time: no
> already archived: no
>
> If we take 3 weeks, divide by 10, and round, that's a reduction of 0 weeks. If we apply that to her previous block, that's 3 - 0 = 3 weeks. And if we double that, that's 6 weeks.
>
> Bob**Bob, my heart hurts to read this. So numerical and inhumane. And I'm not sure I understand how it works, but I just goto say AGAIN, that it goes up too fast :(
There's just something wrong here.
This is supposed to be a place of support.Support:To keep from weakening or failing; strengthen: The letter supported him in his grief.
Support:to sustain (a person, the mind, spirits, courage, etc.) under trial or affliction: They supported him throughout his ordeal.
Muffled
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 22, 2007, at 17:54:12
In reply to Re: 'I' statements » Fallen4MyT, posted by All Done on January 21, 2007, at 22:25:01
Thank you Laurie you're always so nice to me...I do see what you are saying in your examples however I do not see it as it pertains to my post. I cannot seem to see how mt post was not civil. I am not sure it was not civil to be honest..THANKS
> Fallen,
>
> I guess I just want to say that adding "I feel" to the beginning of a sentence does not necessarily make it an acceptable "I" statement under Dr. Bob's civility guidelines.
>
> For example, can you see the difference between the two statements:
>
> I feel Poster X was hurtful to me.
>
> vs.
>
> I feel hurt by Poster X's words.
>
> The first statement is in effect calling Poster X a hurtful person. The second statement refers to *my* reaction to whatever Poster X wrote.
>
> I don't know if this helps at all, but it's my understanding of "I" statements and how Dr. Bob might like to see them, FWIW.
>
> Laurie
>
>
> > Oh you are so right Dinah . How should I have put it so that YOU would not issue a PBC? Are you`feeling putdown or accused? I am so sorry.
> >
> > As I DID just state how I FEEL based in HFs statements that that is how she felt YES I will ask Dr Bob to look this over...But thank you so much for pointing this out.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 19:37:24
In reply to Re: 'I' statements, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 22, 2007, at 17:54:12
> I cannot seem to see how mt post was not civil.
Thanks for wanting to understand this.
> > I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts*
The issue with the above is that it could lead someone who was posting with HF to feel accused of pressuring her. More of an I-statement would be something like:
> > I would have felt pressured in the above *posts*
That's more about you and less about them. Also, we're asking posters who want to notify us about an issue to do so with that button instead of by posting.
Does this make more sense now?
Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 22, 2007, at 21:09:03
In reply to Re: 'I' statements, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 19:37:24
> > I cannot seem to see how mt post was not civil.
>
> Thanks for wanting to understand this.
>
> > > I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts*
>
> The issue with the above is that it could lead someone who was posting with HF to feel accused of pressuring her. More of an I-statement would be something like:
>
> > > I would have felt pressured in the above *posts*
>
> That's more about you and less about them. Also, we're asking posters who want to notify us about an issue to do so with that button instead of by posting.
>
> Does this make more sense now?
>
> BobThanks Dr Bob it's a little clearer BUT :) would it have been best to have said in Hf's shoes I would have felt pressured? I try NOT to use peoples names as not to lead them to feel put down...so I did it in a general way...And why not a please rephrase that ? Maybe those no longer exist?> I lose track of the rules when they change
Posted by ElaineM on January 22, 2007, at 23:23:58
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 16:08:25
[I'll separate my responses so that one can be put to rest]
>>>>>>>Thanks for giving this some thought. Maybe they wouldn't just *think* you were worth saving, but *tell* you that, too. What if they didn't know who to call, what would you want them to do then?
Thanks for saying you appreciate my contribution. But are you really asking me to clarify this :) cause I can't tell? -- I'll assume so, cause in my other post I thought it went without saying.... Well, I'm sure my friends would know either my parents or my sister's number (or boyfriend's, if I had one). [I'm talking friend, not just aquantance] If not (and for the sake of your argument, were thoroughly isolated from me in terms of common relations, and distance), I'm sure they could manage calling the police -- my baby cousin even knows 911.
People who are concerned and motivated, to protect themself or another's life, try to make the attempts they feel would most likely be successful.
Have you not even searched someone through obtaining an ISP number before?...or something like that, it's been referred to somewhat recently on the admin pages but I'm not familiar.
Maybe I'm confused, but have you not also contacted police before too?
If a patient called you and said they were suicidal would you tell them to go and call a friend instead?But back to your question, Yes I agree, considering that we only had phone or computer contact, I suppose my friend *would* tell me multiple times that I was worth saving - who doesn't say that to someone who makes such an outcry? Plus, I don't think suggesting IRL help has ever been the *only* words offered in a thread before, without other statements of friendship or concern. But in terms of preventing someone in such a desperate mental state, interms of human life, I'd like to rely on *real-life* action rather than far away professions of friendship. Tunnel vision typical of a true suicidal state often traps sufferers in their own process and thoughts. When people are suicidal they usually are only thinking about ending their own pain at that moment -- it's against human instinct to not fight for survival, it takes an awful lot of emotional and psychological distress for someone to reach that place....But Bob, you know this! People who kill themselves can often be aware that taking their own life would be hard for those who care about them to take -- they write goodbye notes for example -- and then follow through anyways. Infact, every pamphlet and website *I've* ever seen on suicide says that if you have a friend who is suicidal to take them seriously and tell someone appropriate (I've even read "They may resent you in the moment for betraying their confidence, but it's to save their life. You can argue about it later. Better safe than sorry").
Plus, what if my friend had already told me many many times that she cared for me? What if I hung up the phone? What if I lied and said, "Thank's for the word hugs, I'm fine now, don't worry, I love you back" and then I went off and did it anyways. How can anything but IRL help be the *best* defense, and so, the automatic suggestion?! I'm not saying talk can't also be involved, but this other part must always be included in such circumstances.There have also been *multiple* other posters who engage in various forms of self-harm who have been told by *multiple* other fellow posters in the thread to call crisis lines, their T, or take themself to the ER if they thought they could follow through. It's not a unique scenario. I bet there's only a handful of threads (if that) where someone posting to communicate to others, mentions thinking of some form of self-injury and they are NOT told one, if not all, of those three suggestions -- suggestions that have often been *repeated* additional times to posters whose urges peak again at a later date.
First of all, trying to convince a psychiatrist this makes me feel like I'm in the twilight zone -- It almost makes me feel like you're taking part in this aspect of the debate tongue-in-cheek. Cause I kinda can't believe that you're trying to talk us out of saying that, as a given, suicidal people and those talking of overdosing should be told to call professionals - and you're trying rather hard too. I can't imagine any other doctor promoting the same thing as you. I really really can't understand. Are you differentiating crying-wolf and true suicidality in your head? though I prefer to take all outcries seriously. Or perhaps you sometimes blur non-suicidal emotional upset, with suicidality? I've been wondering if that could be part of the reason why you and several of us other posters aren't meeting eye to eye on this. Those are the only possible rational explanations I can think of. But, I don't want to repeat myself anymore, or this generally-accepted-by-others-in-the-helping-professions advice, any additional times. I'll just agree to disagree, and accept that you have a somewhat controversial stance on how laymen should react when someone brings up feeling suicidal, or confesses that they are at risk of being a danger to themself.
Done.
Sorry - Can't help being verbose when I feel strongly about something.
[*sleepy*]
thanks, El
Posted by zazenduckie on January 23, 2007, at 18:16:59
In reply to Re: helping » Honore, posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:30:07
I hope you are not distressed by this block.
Thanks for all you gave to the board especially on the Psych board. You were a great asset to the community and your presence is missed. I hope things are going well for you.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 24, 2007, at 0:40:16
In reply to Re: helping **suicide trigs » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 22, 2007, at 23:23:58
> > > > I would have felt pressured in the above *posts*
>
> Thanks Dr Bob it's a little clearer BUT :) would it have been best to have said in Hf's shoes I would have felt pressured?That would've been fine, too:
> > > > If I had been in HF's shoes, I would have felt pressured in the above *posts*
> And why not a please rephrase that ?
>
> Fallen4MyTI guess I felt like giving you the option of just dropping it if you wanted?
--
> Yes I agree, considering that we only had phone or computer contact, I suppose my friend *would* tell me multiple times that I was worth saving - who doesn't say that to someone who makes such an outcry? Plus, I don't think suggesting IRL help has ever been the *only* words offered in a thread before, without other statements of friendship or concern.
Great, I think other statements of friendship and concern can help keep it from feeling like pressure.
> But in terms of preventing someone in such a desperate mental state, interms of human life, I'd like to rely on *real-life* action rather than far away professions of friendship.
Definitely, *preventing* is something that might not be possible for people here. And trying to do something that's not possible is bound to be frustrating.
> I kinda can't believe that you're trying to talk us out of saying that, as a given, suicidal people and those talking of overdosing should be told to call professionals
>
> ElI'm not trying to do that, I'm trying to say that (1) if you tell them to call someone, and they don't, and you push them, then they might finally call, which would be good, but they also might just feel pushed, which would be counterproductive and (2) in addition to telling them to call someone, statements of friendship and concern can help, too.
Bob
Posted by ElaineM on January 24, 2007, at 20:10:10
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 24, 2007, at 0:40:16
>>>>>I'm not trying to do that, I'm trying to say that (1) if you tell them to call someone, and they don't, and you push them, then they might finally call, which would be good, but they also might just feel pushed, which would be counterproductive and (2) in addition to telling them to call someone, statements of friendship and concern can help, too.
Well, I'm not sure how to define "pushing" -- I guess the individual could say "I'm feeling a bit pressured, can we put away XXX subject?". That's a perfectly polite civil statement. At least that'd be better than having it be an arbitrary judgement of tone, or a quantification of how many times a subject can be mentioned in a thread by various posters.
Thanks for clearing up your opinion and saying that you actually do agree. I'm relieved you weren't suggesting otherwise. I've always said I've been a strong supporter of friendship statements combined with the help - as they often are - never said I wasn't. Just that to not also mention the IRL help would be severely negligent, or something, in serious circumstances.
All good.
peace, El
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 25, 2007, at 0:16:58
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 24, 2007, at 20:10:10
> Well, I'm not sure how to define "pushing" -- I guess the individual could say "I'm feeling a bit pressured, can we put away XXX subject?". That's a perfectly polite civil statement.
Good thinking!
Bob
Posted by Dinah on January 25, 2007, at 9:43:56
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 25, 2007, at 0:16:58
Yes, Dr. Bob, that sounds far better than going around deciding when people are pressuring others, when they're just trying to help, which might just make people anxious about trying to help at all.
Posted by one woman cine on January 25, 2007, at 10:36:54
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 25, 2007, at 9:43:56
It sounds good to me - but what if poster so and so (any poster) is in distress - can they say "can we not talk about xxx" - what then? What if they continue to discuss it - can *we* actually say - "I'm feeling pressured" or is it a one way street.
I am confused. My apologies.
Posted by ElaineM on January 25, 2007, at 12:09:52
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 25, 2007, at 0:16:58
>>>>Well, I'm not sure how to define "pushing" -- I guess the individual could say "I'm feeling a bit pressured, can we put away XXX subject?". That's a perfectly polite civil statement.
***Good thinking!
BobSo can you please make an official statement saying that as far as the pressuring rule goes, this is the procedure you wish to be followed. And that "pressuring" (as opposed to "threats") will be considered only anything that follows, and ignores, such a "please put aside" request.
Or is your above agreement to be considered your official policy statement?
Just keeping this clear here.
I also believe the idea of "pressuring" is relevent to the SOS situations thread. Because if "suggesting, multiple times, advice on how best to stay safe" is pressuring, then so would be trying to talk another into doing what is safest in a dangerous situation, or trying to talk someone out of doing something harmful. In fact, technically it could be even more "pressuring" cause the attempt at conversion could be more overt then, instead of expressed theorectically. Does that mean it would be the wrong thing to do? I don't think so at all! But that's what such a rule would have to suggest. It's somewhat of a "hand-binding" rule. [This is why I would've preferred to have Admin make some distinction between "pressuring" and "threatening".] But without a "please put aside" request (or something similiar), I don't see how one can protect the right of offerer's to suggest, multiple times, the advice they believe to be most appropriate to a situation (especially severe ones), while consequently protecting a listener's right to not hear, more than they'd like, advice they aren't interested in hearing.
Thanks, El
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 26, 2007, at 1:02:41
In reply to official word? » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 25, 2007, at 12:09:52
> what if poster so and so ... is in distress - can they say "can we not talk about xxx" - what then? What if they continue to discuss it - can *we* actually say - "I'm feeling pressured"
>
> one woman cineSorry, who doesn't want to talk about xxx, and who keeps talking about it?
--
> > I guess the individual could say "I'm feeling a bit pressured, can we put away XXX subject?".
>
> can you please make an official statement saying ... that "pressuring" ... will be considered only anything that follows, and ignores, such a "please put aside" request.Sorry, but I think I'd rather not go that far. Because the individual might not feel assertive enough to request that.
> if "suggesting, multiple times, advice on how best to stay safe" is pressuring...
>
> ElaineMI don't think it necessarily is...
Bob
Posted by ElaineM on January 26, 2007, at 12:16:42
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 26, 2007, at 1:02:41
>>>>>Sorry, but I think I'd rather not go that far. Because the individual might not feel assertive enough to request that.
Okay I can accept that - that everyone has their issues.
>>>>>I don't think it necessarily is...
So even though it was an example of "good thinking", and that you don't think pressuring "is necessarily the same thing" as making a suggestion multiple times, we *are* gonna be left with the "Pressuring" rule relying on what I said before... an arbitrary judgement of tone and/or a quantification of how many times posters may mention a subject within a thread, without a receivee needing to give any public sign that they are not interested in exchanging questions/answers/suggestions/debating.....
Okay. Definately you're call.
Though if you're gonna be handing out PBC's or Blocks through generating personal opinions about the tone of posters words [which is different than a PBC resulting from language or sentence structure - closer to a character judgement then anything else, I think] then I'll just advise you to watch out for countertransferance, and leave it at that.
I may not agree with it, but thank you for answering my posts in this thread, and clarifying the level of predictability another rule will have.
done with this one - i think :)
peace, El
Posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2007, at 13:33:11
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 26, 2007, at 12:16:42
> I may not agree with it, but thank you for answering my posts in this thread, and clarifying the level of predictability another rule will have.
From the FAQ: Please don't ...harass or pressure others, ... .
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilI don't perceive Dr. Bob's comment about how someone might feel pressured by others' suggestions for help, etc. as a new and/or more strict interpretation of existing guidelines. Rather, I think it's the part of the civility guidelines that applied with regard to that particular issue.
Looking back at past applications of this aspect of the civility guidelines can also provide insight into how it's been interpreted before and what situations fall into this area. In my recollection, there have been very few "please don't pressure" type PBC's compared to the bulk of PBC's issued. That suggests to me that the odds that one might unknowingly pressure someone else to the point of receiving a PBC are fairly low.
I wrote this to try to reassure about the rule and its enforcement. I hope this helps anyone who might feel restricted in offering support since this dialog started feel a bit more comfortable about it.
namaste
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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