![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 22:21:17
Some people get a lot of "Please Rephrase Thats" or "Please be Sensitives", but not me. I get blocks. :-(
I wish that deputies would find my uncivil posts first because they would give me PBCs and Dr. Bob gives me blocks. I don't think that's fair.
Does Dr. Bob not like me? Why do I not get warnings? I seriously don't get warnings. I've only ever gotten two PBCs and I've been blocked four times. I'm getting upset over this. Someone please explain this to me. Deputies? Anyone?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 22:34:37
In reply to How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 22:21:17
I've noticed something and it's a bad thing. I've noticed that posters who are not well known or who the "masses" don't adore and support tend to get blocked more readily. I'm not going to name names, but I've noticed this.
Dr. Bob, do you know you are doing this? Is this a part of the "for the good of the group" type of thing? Like a person important to the group should be given more chances than someone the group doesn't find important because blocking the former will affect the group more than blocking the latter?
Deneb
Posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:07:40
In reply to How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 22:21:17
> Some people get a lot of "Please Rephrase Thats" or "Please be Sensitives", but not me. I get blocks. :-(
you get warnings...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060317/msgs/623213.html
maybe people get a lot more when their posts are (judged to be) a bit more borderline...
?> I wish that deputies would find my uncivil posts first because they would give me PBCs and Dr. Bob gives me blocks. I don't think that's fair.
i think he would just upgrade the warning to a blocking anyways...
> Does Dr. Bob not like me? Why do I not get warnings? I seriously don't get warnings. I've only ever gotten two PBCs and I've been blocked four times. I'm getting upset over this. Someone please explain this to me. Deputies? Anyone?maybe 'cause the theme is so similar?
also... you tend to get 'unofficial' warnings...
people saying 'um are you getting into one of your states again' kind of unofficial warnings... context... also the topic you get blocked for... is a topic that tends to upset a lot of people...
Posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:09:44
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 22:34:37
mmm
maybe its an unconscious bias...
people who tend to post more 'helpful' posts tend to be given the benefit of the doubt a bit more than people who don't try and be so 'helpful' and / or people who are new and / or people who seem to post out of distress a lot.
maybe it is an unconscious bias...
but then i think he's chilled a bit over time too so if you have been digging in the archives again...
Posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 23:37:26
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:09:44
I can't handle inconsistencies and favoritism. There has to be one set of rules for *everyone*. I can't handle the thought of Dr. Bob thinking he should go easier on some posters because they are more helpful than other posters.
Rules are rules. Rules have to be set in stone. Rules cannot be bent. When the rules are bent, that becomes a new rule and should apply to everyone.
I can't handle the thought of Dr. Bob favouring some posters over others.
Dr. Bob, do you favour some posters over others?
I would rather Dr. Bob stick to his original blocking scheme rather than let some and not all posters have reduced blocks. That's how strongly I feel about this. Everyone should be treated the same way. The rules should be set in stone. I can't handle this! Okay, think I'm losing it just a tad.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 23:43:13
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 23:37:26
> I can't handle inconsistencies and favoritism.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as saying Dr. Bob practices favoritism, I only meant to say that those two things are things I cannot handle....nothing more.
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:58:01
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 23:37:26
Hmm. I wonder what Kohlberg would be thinking about now...
;-)
Okay. So I have been struggling a lot but I shall try.
I don't know whether there is different treatment or not... I don't know. I think he probably does his best to be fair. I think we should try and be charitable.
> Rules are rules. Rules have to be set in stone. Rules cannot be bent. When the rules are bent, that becomes a new rule and should apply to everyone.
I think that context sensitivity should come into it. I do. And what that means... Is that the rule isn't completely black and white because context factors in. But I think that is probably okay. But when rules are changed (like reduced blockings etc) then I think that should be made explicit and there should (at least) be an attempt to explain how things are going to go from that point on.
Like when Larry got his reduced block. Don't get me wrong I was pleased to see Larry back but I didn't understand why he got leniency whereas other people don't. And I don't understand whether that signifies more leniency for other posters in a similar situation or what. I don't know what was considered to be worthy of leniency in that particular situation (with respect to knowing whether other people are likely to get the same thing or whether it was fairly much a once off or what).
It would be nice if updates to the rules could be updated in the FAQ's and we would get a new indicator on the FAQ's so we knew to check them again.
But I hear what you are saying. It is a bit crazy making to think that some people get more leniency for more 'personal' reasons than objective ones.
> I can't handle the thought of Dr. Bob thinking he should go easier on some posters because they are more helpful than other posters.
Well. I don't know how others feel about this... But... The point of the boards is support and education. Of one another. I think that people who seem to really grasp that and really help others... Well...
Maybe it is about reinforcing appropriate behaviour.
I don't know.
Have no idea.
Not doing so well really...FWIW...
I think he made it pretty clear that he didn't really want you to do the scarf thing... He would have preferred you to have spent your time doing something nice for everyone who was going to the party.
But you kind of disregarded that...
WHich is okay I guess...
But the cost / possible cost to that...
Is that at times you say it is a 'small gift'
Then at times you say how much love you are putting into it which makes it actually a gift that is extremely laden with symbolism
Then you say you hope he takes it
(I mean if he doesn't then that will be a symbol for you of him rejecting your love)
But you say better for him to not take it than to throw it away (which you would take as a symbol for him rejecting your love)And so what is he supposed to to?
Take it.
But he has already said...
I don't know.
I think you should talk to your t about this...I think...
And maybe it is just me...
But I think maybe he has become... Something along the lines of... How you might have viewed your father when you were a little kid?
I don't know...
But I'm getting to thinking that...
I shouldn't really post this stuff to the boards.
I need to try and get some help IRL.
And I think... You could probably benefit from that too.
I dunno.
Just don't like people feeling hurt.
Posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 23:59:40
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks? » Deneb, posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:07:40
> > I wish that deputies would find my uncivil posts first because they would give me PBCs and Dr. Bob gives me blocks. I don't think that's fair.
>
> i think he would just upgrade the warning to a blocking anyways...I don't know of any incidences where that has happened. Anyone else?
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on March 31, 2006, at 0:12:54
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by Deneb on March 30, 2006, at 23:59:40
i don't know
maybe they don't block you 'cause they don't want you to send them lots of emails in protest...
okay.
i'm going now...
Posted by special_k on March 31, 2006, at 0:18:56
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:58:01
because what is it about...
that he might care about some people more than others.
and it is a funny one...
because it isn't fair if he cares about other people more than us.
and we get that it isn't fair if he cares about us more than other people.
and we don't want unfairness :-(
but at the same time everyone likes to feel special...
and really...
there are how many over on psychology going through the same thing with their therapists
who went through the same thing with their parents when they had a new sibling come along or where their parents seemed to favour a sibling over them.
or when they just don't really seem to give a toss about us. and yeah sure everybody needs love and some people don't seem to get enough of that... but sometimes people seem to be determined to look for it where they will never find it and i think maybe we do that on purpose really to set ourselves up so then we can just confirm our greatest fear that its because we are intrinsically unlovable anyway.
and people are sick sick sick imo
though of course im talking about me
and bowing out now...
Posted by Deneb on March 31, 2006, at 11:23:17
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:58:01
> Okay. So I have been struggling a lot but I shall try.
Are you okay?
> I don't know whether there is different treatment or not... I don't know. I think he probably does his best to be fair.I hope you're right about that.
> I think that context sensitivity should come into it.
Context sensitivity bothers me. I like to think that Dr. Bob is simply the enforcer of the rules, that he has no say in the matter. I like to think that the rules are black and white and Dr. Bob has no choice when it comes to blocks.
> But when rules are changed (like reduced blockings etc) then I think that should be made explicit and there should (at least) be an attempt to explain how things are going to go from that point on.
Me too.
> And I don't understand whether that signifies more leniency for other posters in a similar situation or what.I would like to know what the situation was.
> > I can't handle the thought of Dr. Bob thinking he should go easier on some posters because they are more helpful than other posters.
>
> Well. I don't know how others feel about this... But... The point of the boards is support and education. Of one another. I think that people who seem to really grasp that and really help others... Well...Some people aren't so good at supporting others. I want them to feel like they matter too.
> Maybe it is about reinforcing appropriate behaviour.
I don't like the idea of that at all. Rules should apply to everyone equally. I hate thinking that there may be a subset of people here who get special treatment.
> I think he made it pretty clear that he didn't really want you to do the scarf thing... He would have preferred you to have spent your time doing something nice for everyone who was going to the party.
I can still do something nice for everyone. Why can't I do both? I think maybe I don't care that he doesn't want me making him a gift. I'm going to admit to some selfishness here. I'm doing the gift thing to mostly satisfy my own needs. Making the scarf for Bob makes me happy and I don't want to stop doing it.
> Is that at times you say it is a 'small gift'
> Then at times you say how much love you are putting into it which makes it actually a gift that is extremely laden with symbolismIt's only laden with symbolism for me. I just want Bob to see it as a scarf.
> And so what is he supposed to to?
I don't know. He can do whatever he wants to do. I don't control him. I'll find out soon enough what he'll do.
> I think you should talk to your t about this...
I'll try to remember to bring it up.
> But I think maybe he has become... Something along the lines of... How you might have viewed your father when you were a little kid?
Maybe, I don't know.
Deneb
Posted by Racer on March 31, 2006, at 12:52:52
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks? » special_k, posted by Deneb on March 31, 2006, at 11:23:17
> > I think that context sensitivity should come into it.
>
> Context sensitivity bothers me. I like to think that Dr. Bob is simply the enforcer of the rules, that he has no say in the matter. I like to think that the rules are black and white and Dr. Bob has no choice when it comes to blocks.
>Deneb, life itself comes in all sorts of shades of grey. Life is not black and white, and the rules here reflect that reality. Dr Bob does have a good deal of discretion, because this is HIS SITE. And he's not a machine, he's a human being. He does his best, I'm sure, to be completely fair. And if he isn't always perfect, how about we offer him the respect of seeing that as part of being human?
> > Well. I don't know how others feel about this... But... The point of the boards is support and education. Of one another. I think that people who seem to really grasp that and really help others... Well...
>
> Some people aren't so good at supporting others. I want them to feel like they matter too.Those people don't get blocked because they aren't good at supporting others, they get blocked because they break the rules. Let's keep that in mind. Larry Hoover is a great example of someone who does get it, who does offer a very generous amount of support and education to others -- and he still got blocked. The blocks aren't a reward/punishment system based on how popular a particular poster is. They're a way to try to enforce an environment which feel psychologically safe for people here.
Yes, it's hard if you have been blocked. When it's something you've done that has gotten your hand slapped, it's hard to see that as a safe place. Tell me, though, Deneb? Do you feel as though you've learned anything from your blocks? Have you learned anything about staying within the guidelines? Maybe about getting along with others a bit better? Or do you think that your blocks were totally arbitrary, and something which Dr Bob did to you, rather than a response to something you did?
>
> > Maybe it is about reinforcing appropriate behaviour.
>
> I don't like the idea of that at all. Rules should apply to everyone equally. I hate thinking that there may be a subset of people here who get special treatment.So should be reinforce INappropriate behavior? Punish appropriate behavior? The rules here apply to everyone, the difference tends to be in how people respond to that application. Some people use the PBC to try to learn to modify their behavior to stay within the guidelines, others don't. How do you think the rules should apply in those situations? Should the person who comes back saying, "Oh, sorry -- I didn't see how that could be read, but I'll be more careful next time," be treated the same way as someone who said, "That's stupid, I can say whatever I want, and you can't do anything to stop me?" Shouldn't there be a difference in the sanctions involved in those two different situations?
>
>
> > I think you should talk to your t about this...
>
> I'll try to remember to bring it up.It seems like a good thing to bring up. Maybe write yourself a note so you can remember to talk about it?
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2006, at 13:08:40
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks?, posted by special_k on March 30, 2006, at 23:58:01
> > It would be nice if updates to the rules could be updated in the FAQ's and we would get a new indicator on the FAQ's so we knew to check them again.
>I think there have been rules established that may not have ever made it into the FAQ, but rather were established in posts. There's no way for new folks to know those rules if they don't get recorded and updated.
Perhaps when new deputies are in place, this could be a project taken on by one or more of them?
gg
Posted by Deneb on March 31, 2006, at 15:17:55
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks? » Deneb, posted by Racer on March 31, 2006, at 12:52:52
> Life is not black and white, and the rules here reflect that reality.
I just wish the rules were black and white, I know they're not. Why must the world be so complicated?
> Dr Bob does have a good deal of discretion, because this is HIS SITE. And he's not a machine, he's a human being.
There's a bad word somewhere on this site. It is very obvious. He even responded to the post, but the person didn't get a block. He couldn't have missed it. Why didn't that person get a block? It wasn't a first offense either. I can't handle these inconsistencies. Why was it okay for that person to swear and not other people?
> > Some people aren't so good at supporting others. I want them to feel like they matter too.
>
> Those people don't get blocked because they aren't good at supporting others, they get blocked because they break the rules.I'm just saying that I think people who are more helpful get reduced blocks or warnings more often than people who are not as helpful. I don't think there should be leniency for people who are generally helpful. Everyone should be punished the same way IMO.
> Let's keep that in mind. Larry Hoover is a great example of someone who does get it, who does offer a very generous amount of support and education to others -- and he still got blocked.
I don't think Larry is a good example at all. How many times has Larry been blocked? And how long are his blocks?
I'm glad Larry isn't blocked for a year, but I think if it were me, I would be up to a year by now.
>The blocks aren't a reward/punishment system based on how popular a particular poster is. They're a way to try to enforce an environment which feel psychologically safe for people here.
I know that, but I think there is still bias. I agree that blocks right now are serving an important role in keeping this place safe.
> Do you feel as though you've learned anything from your blocks?
> Have you learned anything about staying within the guidelines?I've learned that I really have to check and recheck my posts before I submit them. There are a lot of technical things to worry about. I've learned that there are certain things I cannot write about. I've learned that Bob will ignore me while I'm blocked no matter what I do. (At least I think I've learned that...)
> Maybe about getting along with others a bit better? Or do you think that your blocks were totally arbitrary, and something which Dr Bob did to you, rather than a response to something you did?
Do I not get along with people here? I don't think my blocks were totally arbitrary, in hindsight.
> Should the person who comes back saying, "Oh, sorry -- I didn't see how that could be read, but I'll be more careful next time," be treated the same way as someone who said, "That's stupid, I can say whatever I want, and you can't do anything to stop me?" Shouldn't there be a difference in the sanctions involved in those two different situations?
I don't think there should be a difference in sanctions in those two situations. They both did the same thing. Same crime = same punishment. I don't know why I think this, but I just do. Just because one is sorry about shoplifting doesn't mean one shouldn't go to jail.
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on March 31, 2006, at 18:02:35
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks? » special_k, posted by Deneb on March 31, 2006, at 11:23:17
> Are you okay?
no.
> Context sensitivity bothers me. I like to think that Dr. Bob is simply the enforcer of the rules, that he has no say in the matter. I like to think that the rules are black and white and Dr. Bob has no choice when it comes to blocks.sure. i like to think that a computer could be programmed to make civility determinations... but apparantly there is actually (another) technical worry there that has something to do with the math (yeech). sigh. he is a human being and he ain't perfect. we make mistakes, he makes mistakes, everybody makes mistakes. maybe that isn't fair... but that is like and sometimes life isn't fair.
> Some people aren't so good at supporting others. I want them to feel like they matter too.sure. they DO matter. but it should be said that if everybody here took support all the time and nobody offered it then people would stop coming here. some people offer support to others fairly consistently... fairly reliably... sometimes i think those are the people who really hold the boards together. keep people coming back. i mean... if you didn't get supportive responses then would you still be here?
> Making the scarf for Bob makes me happy and I don't want to stop doing it.i understand. it can be rare to feel so happy and when i feel happy like that i just want to do whatever i need to do to keep the feeling around. i understand that. i do. but you can enjoy doing that. you can. actually giving it to him on the day can be a different story though. sometimes i do things... when i'm trying to get into work or something. i remember one of my t's and think about how proud she would feel of me (or something) if i can just get into this. i don't know. but i do understand. i'm sorry if i said anything painful.
> It's only laden with symbolism for me. I just want Bob to see it as a scarf.though it is probably going to be a little hard for him to do that after reading on the boards just how much symbolism you are loading into it...
therapists have to think about this when it comes to gifts too... some therapists have a (black and white) rule about not accepting gifts period. others will under certain circumstances. etc.
i guess the main reason i wanted to say this stuff is because... he might have a policy on not accepting gifts... which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH HIM REJECTING YOUR LOVE. thats all i'm getting at.. he said he didn't really want you to do that... he could be a bit awkward if you try and give it to him (especially since he does indeed appreciate what it symbolises) and then he has to decide whether to go with what he said already (and he does seem to value consistency as do you) only the trouble is you might get all upset and feel really rejected... or he could just take it... in which case what... you will feel all happy... and be talking about how you have given him a gift to symbolise your love... and then what? other posters get the presents rolling in?
i don't know... i don't know what he is supposed to to. and i don't understnad how this can come to anything good...
> > I think you should talk to your t about this...
> I'll try to remember to bring it up.mmm. might be worth thinking whether it is worth trying to give it to him... i guess i'd be thinking bout that. don't get me wrong... enjoy making it. really. think of him as you are making it. whatever. but do it for you and enjoy it for you.
i dunno. maybe i'm just harming.
i'm sorry if i'm hurting.
hope others can jump in
> > But I think maybe he has become... Something along the lines of... How you might have viewed your father when you were a little kid?
> Maybe, I don't know.well i guess you are the only one who would know. how did you feel about your father when you were a little kid? do you remember?
Posted by notfred on April 2, 2006, at 18:43:55
In reply to Re: How come I never get warnings, only blocks? » Racer, posted by Deneb on March 31, 2006, at 15:17:55
"I don't think Larry is a good example at all. How many times has Larry been blocked? And how long are his blocks?"
Lar gets blocked a hole lot:
http://www.google.com/search?q=blocked+lar&sitesearch=dr-bob.org
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2006, at 6:15:46
In reply to I agree » special_k, posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2006, at 13:08:40
> I think there have been rules established that may not have ever made it into the FAQ, but rather were established in posts.
>
> Perhaps when new deputies are in place, this could be a project taken on by one or more of them?That's a nice idea, but a list of proposed changes could also be started here right now and contributed to by whoever has ideas...
Bob
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:20:22
In reply to Re: FAQ project, posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2006, at 6:15:46
larry got a reduced block because ______
and other posters will get similar consideration if they get blocked because of _____
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 11:20:50
In reply to okay i'll start and people can fill in the blanks, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:20:22
oh sorry *proposed* changes.
well then i *propose* that blocks be capped at one week (for what it is worth)
Posted by gardenergirl on April 6, 2006, at 13:54:13
In reply to Re: FAQ project, posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2006, at 6:15:46
> > That's a nice idea, but a list of proposed changes could also be started here right now and contributed to by whoever has ideas...
So are you saying that policies established via posts on the board that have never made it into the FAQ do not need to be included in the FAQ?
And are you asking us to list whatever rules that have been established via posts that we can remember or find in the archives? Or to propose changes to the rules here?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on April 6, 2006, at 13:54:43
In reply to okay i'll start and people can fill in the blanks, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:20:22
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 20:47:38
In reply to Re: FAQ project » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on April 6, 2006, at 13:54:13
oh silly me he wants us to go on an archive trawl reading all his posts for him...
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 2006, at 6:05:33
In reply to Re: FAQ project » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on April 6, 2006, at 13:54:13
> So are you saying that policies established via posts on the board that have never made it into the FAQ do not need to be included in the FAQ?
No, I think they should be.
> And are you asking us to list whatever rules that have been established via posts that we can remember or find in the archives? Or to propose changes to the rules here?
The former, not the latter. :-)
Bob
Posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 6:47:49
In reply to Re: FAQ project, posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 2006, at 6:05:33
> > So are you saying that policies established via posts on the board that have never made it into the FAQ do not need to be included in the FAQ?
> No, I think they should be.
> > And are you asking us to list whatever rules that have been established via posts that we can remember or find in the archives? Or to propose changes to the rules here?
> The former, not the latter. :-)Bags not.
(that means i said i don't wanna do that first so you can't make me do it - just in case you guys don't have that expression)Got to talking to some peoples today...
And they seemed to think that there wouldn't actually be so much of a problem to write a neural net program to make civility determinations. they said they are actually very light on computational power and you could get the language (of posts) into the first layer of nodes via prolog most probably... and they said that the maths problem applied to nets used for mathematical computations or something (which is apparantly the main use of these things DESPITE what philosophers like to tell philosophy students about AI and virtual brains and immortality prospects etc).hrm.
but maybe they were yanking my chain
perhaps..
Posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 6:50:27
In reply to Re: FAQ project, posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 6:47:49
might be a nice thing to do
<hint hint>
especially since you aren't gonna be around forever and all
<snif>
;-)
This is the end of the thread.
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