![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:43:50
going through the various boards this morning I read about rape, a therp with questionable bundaries, and everything just hit me. child abuse, rape as a young adult, an abusive spouse and a victim of boundary crossing by a shrink. what makes us victims over and over? I know a lot of us have been through hell, I'm just freaking out here. sorry, hope I didn't hurt anyone- judy
Posted by shar on January 15, 2004, at 10:57:18
In reply to being a victim, posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:43:50
Judy,
I always thought being a victim was a learned behavior, learned through authority figures that used/abused/neglected us when we were young and truly powerless. Instead of teaching us how to deal with the outside world that would hurt us, and how to take care of ourselves, we were taught (you know I mean taught not explicitly but through their actions and hard words and behaviors toward us) hypervigilance, defensiveness, self-protection via some form of submitting instead of having enough self-confidence, self-love, self-esteem to stand up to those in later years that would hurt us.In Jungian theory (according to a tape I have) there is an orphan archetype, the unmothered (unparented), motherless child that doesn't have inner guidance one might learn at a loving hand. And that is the one who experiences terrible loneliness, stays with jobs they hate and are bad for them, can become too tied to people they think can save them (not really a conscious thought process), and find themselves in bad situations.
What does it take, in those situations you described, to make that ok, or help a young person work through things like that? Whatever it takes, I think, is what those children/adults did not get or learn while growing up.
What do you think? You're pretty knowledgeable and smart about these things.
Shar
Posted by Racer on January 15, 2004, at 13:43:58
In reply to Re: being a victim » judy1, posted by shar on January 15, 2004, at 10:57:18
Shar's certainly hit on something there. One reason for all the continuing victimization is learned behavior on our parts, that we've learned to be passive, vulnerable to the aggressions of others. Because we show that vulnerability through subtle mannerisms and demeanors, aggressive types are drawn to us as easy victims.
Then there's the damage that was done to the aggressors, to make them that way. One example I will give is that some people apparently go into mental health care *in order* to have a steady supply of victims. I've found two hospital workers and one doctor of this type, people who gravitate towards psychiatric work in order to impose themselves on more vulnerable people. Thus, you get a few therapists with, shall we say, their own boundary issues.
Then again, I read a study about treating eating disorders that dealt with the problems therapists face in the course of treatment. It said that the biggest problem for therapists, that they needed to be trained to watch out for, is the tendency to want to protect the patient, and to get more personally attached than is therapeutically appropriate. Wanting, in effect, to be the Good Parent, to Save The Patient. That's still pushing appropriate boundaries, even if it comes from a desire to make it all better, which is a good thing in itself.
Last thought for me on the subject for now, since my husband needs to use the computer:
The other thing is that some of these mental illnesses take on a life of their own. I know I've talked about it before, but we used to call my eating disorder The Beast, because it behaved like a living creature. Even though I knew it was a sickness, even though I knew I needed and wanted to get over it, the patterns were so ingrained that it seemed as if a demon were trying to trick me into staying sick. I know, sounds crazy, but hey, isn't this were psychos come to babble? What I mean is that it's a safety mechanism, a defense strategy, and since it worked to whatever a degree, it's hard to give it up, since we don't have an alternate strategy that we know has worked. Now, does that make more sense?
I guess what I mean is that our behavior is adaptive in that it evolved from our specific situations, and until we have the confidence to let it go and try new behavior, we'll continue to be vulnerable.
(By the way, one problem I've been having lately is the inability to think clearly. Either drug related, or depression related, or brain damage from my suicide attempt over the summer, whatever it is, it's bugging me like you wouldn't believe. If anyone manages to figure out what I meant up there, please -- tell me, huh?)
Posted by judy1 on January 17, 2004, at 11:30:32
In reply to Re: being a victim » judy1, posted by shar on January 15, 2004, at 10:57:18
I agree with you about learned behavior, and then one step further- the actual physical changes in the brain as a result. It's a vicious cycle, and one where it takes a very good therp to help the patient discover. and I really believe that helps in situations like abusive partners and not replaying that scenario, but I'm still stuck on random events like rapes that happen more to people who have experienced abusive chidhoods. do you have ideas on that?
thanks, judy
Posted by judy1 on January 17, 2004, at 11:39:21
In reply to Re: being a victim, posted by Racer on January 15, 2004, at 13:43:58
do you think mannerisms and one's physical bearing attract rapists? I'm not talking about provacative dress, but some kind of aura that an abuse victim emanates? I'm trying to understand that.
I can truly understand how a shrink is able to zone in on a victim, I guess it's why other shrinks find this type of thing so heinous.
I agree we use the coping mechanisms we know, no matter how destructive (and I wrote that to shar). but it's the random things that get me...
BTW, I find you very clear- has someone else said something to you? being bipolar, I possess a computer brain when manic so that when I'm 'normal' I feel like my mind is in slow mo. is that how you're feeling?
take care, judy
Posted by shar on January 17, 2004, at 14:59:30
In reply to Re: being a victim » shar, posted by judy1 on January 17, 2004, at 11:30:32
Well, we know that child abuse crosses all boundaries (and spousal abuse) like race, socioeconomic status, etc. And, so does rape. And, rape is more likely to be perpetrated by a "friend" or someone known to the person, than by a total stranger; then there is spousal rape.
It seems to me that environment might be a big factor there. If you live in an environment (house, neighborhood) that is violent, it seems more likely that you'd be abused (which is violent) and attacked or raped. The rate of spousal abuse among police officers and military families is higher than the norm. I would imagine if you went into areas that had a lot of violence in the streets (and drugs, etc.) you'd find their rates of violence in the home, or on the streets to be higher than the norm, also.
What Racer said about predators is also true, I believe. Like people that are on the lookout for victims. And, that really creeps me out, too, to think people in the helping professions may be predatory, I'd never thought about that before.
Of course, I could be totally wrong about what I said (except the part about police and military), I think everything is external environment + what a child is told and taught + the individual's constitution. People can go through the same experiences and have totally different responses and be impacted very differently--even kids in the same family can turn out very different from each other.
So, I guess my response is I don't really know. Just have 'best guesses.'
Shar
> I agree with you about learned behavior, and then one step further- the actual physical changes in the brain as a result. It's a vicious cycle, and one where it takes a very good therp to help the patient discover. and I really believe that helps in situations like abusive partners and not replaying that scenario, but I'm still stuck on random events like rapes that happen more to people who have experienced abusive chidhoods. do you have ideas on that?
> thanks, judy
Posted by Racer on January 17, 2004, at 21:49:06
In reply to Re: being a victim » Racer, posted by judy1 on January 17, 2004, at 11:39:21
> do you think mannerisms and one's physical bearing attract rapists? I'm not talking about provacative dress, but some kind of aura that an abuse victim emanates? I'm trying to understand that.
Yes, I do think that mannerisms and physical bearing attracts predators. I will tell you about being attacked on the street as a teenager, because it's a perfect illustration of what I mean. Let me give a little background, so that you get a fuller picture.
I was 13, home life was terrible, and my mother signed us up for counseling at the local med school psych program. At the time, she had a boyfriend, whom she had just asked to move out after I reported to her that he molested me. This was after years of him being emotionally abusive to both of us, and I'd finally learned to let his remarks slide off me without showing any response. That was the point at which he turned physical. Enough said about how I learned to be passive? (And while he moved out, he kept the keys. I don't know to this day if my mother knew he was coming into our home during the day when she was at work.)
Anyway, one day, on the way to my individual appointment with the counselor, I was standing on a crowded bus. The young man behind me grabbed my butt. I didn't do anything about it, which I now know was my mistake. "Gee, he couldn't have *meant* to touch my butt, I must be imagining it (just like I imagined being molested, you know) and it was just an accidental brush, not a grope." He followed me up the street, about half a block later he grabbed me suddenly. I was very fortunate, because a man was walking three large, imposing dogs nearby, and released them when he saw the young man jump me. The dogs chased the guy, who got away.
There were other times when I was bothered on the bus, including a real sicko middle aged guy who used to stand right behind me, with one hand on either side of mine on the overhead bar, with his limp little whoo-ha pressed up against me. I never made a sound, pretending that it was just the only way he could stand on the moving bus.
What do I know now that I didn't know then? I now know that my fear of embarrassment and exposure left me vulnerable to these predators, and they took advantage of it knowingly. That first grope on the bus for the young man, the first rub up against me by the older, those were enough evidence for each to conclude I would be easy prey.
Now, back to my favorite subject of this: a study was done with hyenas a while back. We all know the theory that predators go for the sick and weak, culling the wild herds. What is it that attracts their attention? Well, it turns out that difference is all it takes. Some researchers painted spots on some gazelles, and those animals with spots painted on them were the targets of hyena attacks every time. Almost any difference can cause an animal to become 'prey' to a predator. Did you know that horses prefer other horses to be certain colors? Herd heirarchy is largely color based, with greys and paints at the bottom of the pecking order in almost every case. The closer a horse is to the "basic horse" color, called dun, the higher its likely to be in a herd. By anything that sets us apart, we call attention to ourselves. Even something as simple as an unwillingness to make eye contact in casual situations, like on a bus, is enough to mark us.
So, yes, I do think random acts of violence can be more common against people with depression and other mental illnesses than in the general population. And I think it's a direct cause and effect relationship.
> BTW, I find you very clear- has someone else said something to you? being bipolar, I possess a computer brain when manic so that when I'm 'normal' I feel like my mind is in slow mo. is that how you're feeling?
> take care, judy
>Nobody has said anything to me. This is my own perception, which isn't passing my own tests. For example, my beloved cat has been sick recently. He lost a lot of weight, suddenly, and began drinking excessively, and peeing excessively. Classic symptoms of diabetes, right? Heck, my husband is diabetic, I should recognize it right off, right? Nope, not a clue. I looked at him and thought he was dying, figured it had to be kidney disease. Well, it did turn out to be kidney disease, so I wasn't wrong with my fears, but the fact that something as simple as diabetes, especially combined with his earlier weight problems and elevated blood glucose on an earlier test at the vet's -- let's just say I expect better from myself.
Another example is an email from my aunt. One of those, "Add together the first three digits of your telephone number, multiply by, divide by, subtract, etc" things, that went through a half dozen steps to give you your telephone number. Usually it's a quick calc, and I can tell you how and why it works. This one took me a couple of hours, and it's as simple as could be.
Also, when talking to people or writing, I can't seem to hold onto thoughts long enough to express them, finish sentences, etc. And my typing has gone to Hades, having to backspace much more often than usual. Generalized Not Thinking Clearly, that's the name I'm giving my new syndrome. Like it?
So, there are some answers from the misty regions of my mind. Great question, by the way, and one I think more of us should be exploring.
Posted by noa on January 18, 2004, at 11:50:03
In reply to Re: being a victim, posted by Racer on January 15, 2004, at 13:43:58
I think doubting one's own perceptions is a key factor. When you grow up with parents who constantly invalidate your own perceptions of things, you are going to develop a lot of self doubt about trusting your own instincts. And if you grow up in an abusive environment, the boundary between what is acceptable and what is not isn't clear at all and is probably in a different place than it would be for people who had safer upbringings. So the safely-raised kids grow up to be adults who can spot a boundary crossing better. They can feel it in their guts that something is making them uncomfortable. The people who grew up being abused or invalidated don't pay heed to the inner gut feeling and may not have the gut feeling kick in until it is too late.
On top of that I think abusers are drawn to these vulnerable types. I've heard that victims are also drawn to abusers. Perhaps. I don't know. I think it possible that the victims are just less skilled at avoiding the abusive types and knowing how to get what they want in life. But I do think the abusers have a way of finding the ones who are vulnerable.
Posted by noa on January 18, 2004, at 11:52:40
In reply to Re: being a victim (long, rambling) » judy1, posted by Racer on January 17, 2004, at 21:49:06
I once heard a commentary that made sense to me. The speaker said that every woman is at risk of being the victim of relationship violence. But, she said, some women will recognize it for what it is sooner than other women will. So, while all women may initially be at risk, some are more at risk for not getting out of a bad situation.
Posted by shar on January 18, 2004, at 15:32:14
In reply to Re: being a victim (long, rambling) » judy1, posted by Racer on January 17, 2004, at 21:49:06
How can you wonder about your mental acuity when you think of great names for our syndromes? The Generalized Not Thinking Clearly one I have definitely experienced, for quite a while now.
Shar
Posted by Racer on January 18, 2004, at 18:25:19
In reply to GNTC » Racer, posted by shar on January 18, 2004, at 15:32:14
> How can you wonder about your mental acuity when you think of great names for our syndromes? The Generalized Not Thinking Clearly one I have definitely experienced, for quite a while now.
>
> SharMy friends and I used to play games like that, making up names for things. I had a couple of economic theories that brought about CTLU:
1. You're down to your last $50. Do you buy food or a bottle of perfume?
Answer: of course you buy the perfume! If you buy $50 perfume, someone will buy you dinner!
2. Free shoes the day after Christmas.
Answer: the stores have 50% off sales on the shoes, so you use the 50% you save to pay for the shoes, and they're free!
Thus, Consider The Lilies University, specializing in finance and economics. (Too bad our president went there, huh?)
I'm glad you like GNTC, though.
Posted by noa on January 19, 2004, at 8:08:54
In reply to Re: CTLU » shar, posted by Racer on January 18, 2004, at 18:25:19
LOL. I like it. I used to have a similar economic theory about sales:
Back in the days when Filene's Basement was really in the basement of the Filene's store in Boston, ie, before it got sold off and opened up as a multi-store chain completely unlike the original.....my friends and I would go to the basement (that is what we called it) and if we found something that was a really good deal, we considered the difference between the super-reduced price and the original price to be "found money". So, for example, if you found a $100 dress for only $20, you now were $80 richer! Now you had $80 to spend that you didn't have before.
(the reality was that even the $20 dress was not really in my budget anyway).
Posted by Racer on January 19, 2004, at 11:37:08
In reply to Re: CTLU » Racer, posted by noa on January 19, 2004, at 8:08:54
Yep, you just got your diploma, girlfriend!
Part of the acronym thing was my aunt working for the Navy. DOD types like acronyms. She had a file in her office, contributed to by most of her department, called the RFN letters. Really [we all know what the F stands for] Nuts. Some of them were real winners. But the RFN acronym led to things like RFS (stupid), CFI (Completely F Insane), TFPO (Totally F P***ed Off), etc.
And then there was the way my mother and some of her friends communicated with one another around the kids. Things like NOKD: "Not Our Kind, Dear" or, as one of them put it, NQOCD: "Not Quite Our Class, Dear". (Then again, I grew up hearing things like, referring to an aunt-by-marriage who kept a sponge next to her bathtub, "It's not that it's a cultural artifact, dear, it's that she doesn't realize that it is." Someone finally explained it to me: back in either my grandparents house or my greatgrandparents house, the wall above the bathtub was plaster and lathe, rather than tile. After every bath, you used the sponge to wipe down the wall, to avoid the moisture getting into the plaster. This aunt saw the sponge there, and thought it was considered a necessary sign of proper housekeeping and put one next to her own, tile walled, bathtub. A cultural artifact.)
(Oh, yeah, and my mother and aunt-by-birth and their friends could almost come to blows over things like whether or not Julius Caesar could be considered the first of the 12 Caesars. They were weird people, but interesting.)
So, congratulations on your proud and successful completion of the academic rigors of CTLU.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble 2000 | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.