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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2005, at 20:24:30
In reply to trigger***, posted by holymama on October 15, 2005, at 20:11:18
back to the issue...
i think it is a really hard decision to have to make.
there are 4 possible outcomes:
1) if you interveane it is possible that the person will be grateful later. will appreciate that.
2) if you interveane it is possible that the person will resent that later. will not appreciate that.
3) if you do not interveane it is possible that the person will die. and that if they had been prevented from that - they may have gone on to be grateful that they were prevented.
I guess that is the worst case scenario.
and why... there is the urge to be 'better safe than sorry'4) if you do not interveane it is possible that the person will go on to deal with it okay themselves or get the help they need irl themselves.
I guess that i think...
that deneb posts her thoughts on suicide a fair bit.
she does seem to get into that place fairly often.
then she tends to come right...
and be happy. happy to be alive.so i guess thats why people think it would be a bad decision for her to die.
but with respect to intervention...
if someone makes her go to hospital she will be resentful about other people making her do things. and if she feels that way... it is unlikely to be helpful.
the situation is likely to recurr...
if we interveane this time then...
how many times will we need to keep doing this?how much better to support her best we can
into getting the help she needs herself.
then she can feel like it is her decision and she can feel empowered with respect to her life.
she will have done something positive toward helping herself. and that will be something to be proud of. whereas if we do this for her... she will likely resent it.because... we can't save her.
but... people can help her if she takes steps to help herself.
Posted by holymama on October 15, 2005, at 20:41:49
In reply to Re: why i think we shouldn't interveane, posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2005, at 20:24:30
Fair enough, Alexandra. By the way, I am enjoying this discussion we have going. Almost time for me to go to bed, though.
I think you have good reasons for not intervening. I think there are many good reasons to intervene as well. I think that really it comes down to this: noone knows what is best for Deneb or anyone else. We are all just trying to do our best to help.
I personally get scared when someone posts such direct and certain threats of suicide. I realize this is a reocurring thing for Deneb. I just don't feel comfortable with letting it go and seeing if she will work it out herself. I'm scared.
My original post here on administration was actually just to alert Dr. Bob to the conversation that was going on. I don't know (forgive me, I haven't read about it) what the rules on this website are for things like this -- if he wants to intervene or not. I just felt safer leaving it up to him to decide. Maybe feeling like the responsibility was not mine anymore was part of it.
So, that's it. I'm not a stunch advocate for intervention in all cases. I argued for it here because
1. it seemed like a reasonable idea and
2. it seemed like it needed some defense considering the discussion going on here.~Autumn~
Posted by gardenergirl on October 15, 2005, at 21:30:54
In reply to Re: why i think we shouldn't interveane » alexandra_k, posted by holymama on October 15, 2005, at 20:41:49
Holymama,
I was going to babblemail this, but I don't think you have babbblemail turned on. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate the senstivity of your posts. I'm thinking specifically of your conversation with lostforwards and here.(((holymama))))
gg
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 7:31:46
In reply to I appreciate you » holymama, posted by gardenergirl on October 15, 2005, at 21:30:54
> Holymama,
> I was going to babblemail this, but I don't think you have babbblemail turned on. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate the senstivity of your posts. I'm thinking specifically of your conversation with lostforwards and here.
>
> (((holymama))))
>
> gg
Thank you for the kind words, gg. That means a lot to me. It was feeling pretty lonely on that thread last night. :)I've turned my babblemail on for the future.
I wanted to tell you that I appreciate the hard job of moderating you have been doing here on the board. You're a thoughtful and fair person and it doesn't go unnoticed.
~~Autumn~~
Posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 8:11:07
In reply to Thank you gg » gardenergirl, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 7:31:46
I wonder if you're also deneb and this whole thing was a set-up, just so you could get your point across.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 16, 2005, at 12:30:32
In reply to ((((((Scambuster)))))) you fine individual, posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 8:11:07
Alex received a PBC for speculating above about this poster's motivations, etc. I think it might be considered uncivil (jumping to conclusions?) to post that a poster is really another poster (i.e. posting under 2 names) especially since that is a clear violation of Babble rules.
don't you get in trouble....I/we *need* your sense of humor...and everything else about you around here!!
(and now I'll take my weak, curious, hypocritical self who said she wasn't even going to read this board right now...and slink away...)
Posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 13:25:55
In reply to Careful , CT » crazy teresa, posted by 10derHeart on October 16, 2005, at 12:30:32
Thanks for your concern, 10der. It's nice to feel needed. ;~}
But there is no denial in his response.
Posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 17:17:36
In reply to Re: » Nickengland, posted by Scambuster on October 16, 2005, at 16:47:30
Which issue concerns you more?
1. We did not want deneb to kill herself.
2. Bobster runs this website.Is there any way I could help you find satisfaction without diminishing your humanity?
((((((Scambuster))))))
Posted by verne on October 16, 2005, at 17:33:25
In reply to Scambuster, I'm so sorry; you seem to be torn., posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 17:17:36
Diagnosing anti-social personality disorder, or suggesting someone is anti-social, doesn't get us anywhere. It's really just a way to invalidate the other person and dismiss what they are saying.
Verne
Posted by TamaraJ on October 16, 2005, at 17:43:08
In reply to From the Hip Diagnosis, posted by verne on October 16, 2005, at 17:33:25
Posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 17:43:48
In reply to From the Hip Diagnosis, posted by verne on October 16, 2005, at 17:33:25
Psychopath, sociopath, antisocial personality disorder, and maybe borderline personality disorder mean evil (or some such) in a way acceptable to the pseudoscientific DSM approach. Oscar Wilde said that evil is a way of explaining the curious attractiveness of others. And psychopaths are meant to be attractive and charming. IMO those terms aren't helpful.
Declan
Posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 17:47:40
In reply to From the Hip Diagnosis, posted by verne on October 16, 2005, at 17:33:25
No one has offered a dianosis; only information and support.
Know what I mean?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 17:55:54
In reply to I disagree, » verne, posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 17:47:40
> No one has offered a dianosis; only information and support.
My understanding was that a diagnosis was offered for scam to contemplate on the basis of a couple of limited observations of his / her posting behaviour.
How supportive is that?
I haven't found any diagnoses to be supportive. Not any single diagnosis I have received.
I know some people think diagnosis must be given before adequate support can be offered, but what does dx typically lead to???
hospitalisation
medication
therapyand how helpful are these?
I think that what scam posted earlier on in the thread is actually something of a profound insight. as to how the 'helping' stats are compiled. as to how there is not adequate evidence to show that these things help the people who comprise the population that the stats are derived from. and especially not with respect to generalising from (unwarranted) claims about what helped that particular sample to the rest of humanity.
given the lack of support...
and given the very real harms that are done...
i really don't see how offering diagnoses for peoples contemplation is supportive.
i really don't see how that is helpful to the person.
i really don't see how that assists them in their living a meaningful life.difficult things to contemplate...
yet strangely empowering...
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 18:14:41
In reply to I disagree, » verne, posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 17:47:40
I am trying to stay out of this conversation because it is consuming too much of my thought, but something is really bothering me.
I feel that Scambuster is trying to find some hidden and personal motive for me and others here (who may at this point be afraid to speak up, since I'm afraid the atmosphere has become too hostile rather than supportive) who feel intervention might be in order to keep her safe.
He seems to have latched on to my comment in an earlier post:
> I think if she learns there are consequences to this, she might have to learn another way to deal with her frustrations.
...and is using it repeatedly to mean that I wanted to teach Deneb a lesson to make her conform to our rules.
This is WRONG. I meant that if there were consequences to threatening suicide, she might have to learn and GROW and GET HEALTHIER.
I want Scambuster to stop using his/her misunderstanding of my words in his/her posts.
Posted by verne on October 16, 2005, at 18:34:14
In reply to Re: From the Hip Diagnosis, posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 17:43:48
It's funny, Declan, but I was thinking of Oscar Wilde earlier. I haven't read him for a long time but remember how well he understood the use of language, what's really being said.
I don't read much anymore but he made a lasting impression. (I'm still adjusting to reading glasses and can't quite get comfortable)
Meanwhile, I'm hoping to put a blanket over the TV, put a nativity scene on top, and call it an early Christmas.
Verne
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 18:35:59
In reply to Re: I disagree, » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 17:55:54
> I meant that if there were consequences to threatening suicide, she might have to learn and GROW and GET HEALTHIER.
And 'growing' and 'getting healthier' would mean what exactly?
There is not adequate evidence to show that intervention assists one 'grow' and / or 'get healthier'.
There is also some evidence to show that intervention can be harmful.
If by getting healthier you mean stopping 'threatening suicide' or posting about suicide on these boards. Stopping thinking about suicide. then you might want to think about how these may well be things that you value, yet they might not eb things that Deneb and others value.
Deneb has said that she doesn't want anyone to interveane.
Do you presume to know what is better for her than she does?
If your concern is for Deneb...
Then how about posting to her and being her friend.
Accepting who she is
And not trying to modify her behaviour so that it conforms to other peoples values....
Posted by Nickengland on October 16, 2005, at 18:45:38
In reply to Re: I disagree, » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 17:55:54
Just to ease confusion.
I offered a link to a website, no more no less.
If you check out the meds board now and then you will read suggestions of diagnosis flying about, suggestions of medications, all kinds of things, they're seen as supportive, no one says otherwise and in many ways people are asking, helping etc..
I don't even give that kind of advice out (although I may have rarely) eg - you might want to take X drug. You might want to consider a bipolar aspect.
Only a doctor can diagnosis and not from the internet. Anyone can *suggest* I even said in my orignal post where I put the link - i am "not" suggesting.
Perhaps Scambuster is perfectly healthy (mentally) then like some other people, they say "you dont need drugs etc" there was a recent thread on the meds board about this. I'm not diagnosing Scambuster to be mentally healthy or unhealthly, just putting a link down.
Hope that helpsNick
Posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 19:03:06
In reply to It was just a link » alexandra_k, posted by Nickengland on October 16, 2005, at 18:45:38
I don't think we should be questioning each others motives.
None of our motives are too bad, beyond the desire for a bit of a stoush perhaps.
Some of the intelligent observations made might have been put in such a way as to question integrity or somesuch.
But what has been said is most interesting read in an impersonal way, although of course people who are feeling defensive have their reasons.
There's no reason why this conversation should have to go into a tailspin, is there?
Declan
Posted by Nickengland on October 16, 2005, at 19:17:36
In reply to Re: It was just a link, posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 19:03:06
G'day Declan
>There's no reason why this conversation should have to go into a tailspin, is there?
I agree :-)
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 19:43:17
In reply to Re: I disagree, » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 18:35:59
> > I meant that if there were consequences to threatening suicide, she might have to learn and GROW and GET HEALTHIER.
>
> And 'growing' and 'getting healthier' would mean what exactly?I meant find other alternatives to pain than threatening or attempting suicide...like finding therapy...or asking for help...or getting help...
>
> There is not adequate evidence to show that intervention assists one 'grow' and / or 'get healthier'.
>
> There is also some evidence to show that intervention can be harmful.I didn't stop to contemplate the 'adequate evidence' when I pointed Dr Bob in the direction of Deneb's thread. I saw a person in danger and thought it might be good to get her help.
>
> If by getting healthier you mean stopping 'threatening suicide' or posting about suicide on these boards. Stopping thinking about suicide. then you might want to think about how these may well be things that you value, yet they might not eb things that Deneb and others value.???Could you explain to me what you mean by this? That others don't want to stop thinking about suicide? That some people threaten suicide and want to continue to keep doing so? This is news to me if that is what you are saying. I thought that being suicidal was a state of anguish that all or most of us wanted to be out of. Maybe I am wrong.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 19:55:21
In reply to Re: I disagree, » alexandra_k, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 19:43:17
> ???Could you explain to me what you mean by this? That others don't want to stop thinking about suicide? That some people threaten suicide and want to continue to keep doing so? This is news to me if that is what you are saying. I thought that being suicidal was a state of anguish that all or most of us wanted to be out of. Maybe I am wrong.
I'm making the same point that scam made before (or at least I'm reiterating the point as I understand it).
Deneb posts about her thoughts on death and her desire to be dead at times.
We are all going to die one day.
You seem to think that it would be better for her to stop posting about these things.
Better for her, or in line with how other people here prefer her to behave?
I think it may well be worthwhile to post about things like that.
I mean... We are all going to die one day.
Who is to say that one way of behaving is healthier than another?
Who is to say that one way of thinking is healthier than another?
What seemed to upset Deneb the most...
Was posters responding to her feelings / thoughts / perceptions
By invalidating them.
By instructing her to do things THEY wanted / valued.
And the ultimate goal... seems to be to have silenced her.Thats what I mean about values.
I value honest expression
Over modifying behaviour that makes other people feel uncomfortable.In your world view...
According to your values...Am I very bad for that?
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 20:17:14
In reply to Re: I disagree, » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 19:55:21
> Deneb posts about her thoughts on death and her desire to be dead at times.
>
> We are all going to die one day.
>
> You seem to think that it would be better for her to stop posting about these things.
Well, careful with words, because I don't think it would be better for her to stop posting things like that. I don't want her to stop posting about anything, I just thought she was asking for help. I'm really sad that she's been blocked and she can't talk here right now. That's really scary and I'm hoping she has someone to help her right now.Would you argue against that??? That she would be best off getting help? We can go back and forth about this until we are blue in the face, but I don't understand the point anymore. Any way I look at it, I still come to the conclusion that a suicidal person needs help. Am I forcing my worldview on that person? I guess I am, but with the intention of easing their pain.
>
> I value honest expression
> Over modifying behaviour that makes other people feel uncomfortable.
>
> In your world view...
> According to your values...
>
> Am I very bad for that?Perhaps the thing we are talking about is the word 'help'. What does it mean to help? Is everyone here asking for help? Is Deneb asking for help? What kind of help is she asking for, what kind does she need?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 20:39:42
In reply to Re: I disagree,, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 20:17:14
> > Deneb posts about her thoughts on death and her desire to be dead at times.
> > We are all going to die one day.
> > You seem to think that it would be better for her to stop posting about these things.
> Well, careful with words, because I don't think it would be better for her to stop posting things like that.I agree. If it helps her to post her thoughts / questions about that then it seems that it is a worthwhile thing to do.
> I don't want her to stop posting about anything, I just thought she was asking for help.
I think... She was asking for some validation and reassurance. When you 'threatened' suicide you may have meant it as a cry for help. But that doesn't mean that when everybody talks about suicide they mean it as a cry for help.
You asked whether it might be appropriate to interveane
(Which seems to be a reasonable question to me)
And then she posted a direct request that people not interveane directly.She clarified her intention there.
To continue on saying that intervention should be sent DESPITE her direct request seems to imply that other people may know what is best for her.
> I'm really sad that she's been blocked and she can't talk here right now. That's really scary and I'm hoping she has someone to help her right now.
I didn't know she had been blocked :-(
Can someone give me a link?I think she could use a little support / care / understanding...
I hope people have her email address...
> Would you argue against that??? That she would be best off getting help? We can go back and forth about this until we are blue in the face, but I don't understand the point anymore.I've reiterated the point.
It is a hard point, I appreciate that.
I had to think about it fairly long and hard...>Any way I look at it, I still come to the conclusion that a suicidal person needs help. Am I forcing my worldview on that person? I guess I am, but with the intention of easing their pain.
If your intention is to ease their pain...
Then it might be wise to look at what we know about how much involountary hospitalisation assists alleviating peoples pain.
There are people (like yourself) with positive anecdotes...
But once you take all the other people into account...
Once you take the potential harm into account...Then what do you think your considered view is on what is most likely to ease her pain?
Personally... I don't know. But I think sometimes what people most need... Is an empathetic friend. Babblers have done more for me than the majority of mental health professionals in my life. But just like the majority of mental health professionals... Babblers are capable of harm as well :-(
> Perhaps the thing we are talking about is the word 'help'. What does it mean to help? Is everyone here asking for help? Is Deneb asking for help? What kind of help is she asking for, what kind does she need?Why not...
Ask her?Most people like to feel that other people are empathising with them and value them rather than trying to 'do things to them' (ie interveane) at the very least...
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 21:09:34
In reply to Re: I disagree, » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 20:39:42
Here is the link to Deneb's being blocked:http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051015/msgs/567834.html
> Then it might be wise to look at what we know about how much involountary hospitalisation assists alleviating peoples pain.
True, I see your point about that. That is definitely something I will have to think about.
> What kind of help is she asking for, what kind does she need?
> Why not...
> Ask her?
> Most people like to feel that other people are empathising with them and value them rather than trying to 'do things to them' (ie interveane) at the very least...
True.............and I would like to ask her what kind of help she is looking for.
> She's just such a complex person, asking for advice, yet not really taking any, screaming out again and again that she was in pain. It's unnerving to sit and watch it. I don't know how to deal with that. That's MY issue. I tried to talk with her, tried to empathize, and usually that helps with people. That thread got longer and longer, more and more people trying to help...and it just got worse. Then there were the threats. At that point, did anyone know what to do?Thanks for chatting with me Alexandra, I can see many points here, I'm really just left with a sad feeling that Deneb just got lost and we've all been arguing. Good points have been made and maybe we've all learned from it, but poor Deneb.
>
Posted by 10derHeart on October 16, 2005, at 21:12:57
In reply to Re: I disagree, » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 20:39:42
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051015/msgs/567834.html
Alex, if you do have her email address, and if she agrees, could you Babblemail it to me? Tell her I'd like to keep in touch from time to time during her block if she'd like. I'm worried and I care about her.
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