Posted by Dr. Bob on July 25, 2003, at 20:02:13
In reply to Pleasers w/men who are Controllers « Yankeegirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2003, at 19:19:57
Re: Resurect'g Pleasers w/men who are Cont?YG KDI » mercedes
Posted by Daphnis on July 24, 2003, at 22:10:52
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030723/msgs/244971.html
Like I said, I got divorced in '93 but he is still trying hard to control me. took me to court three times this year. and is ignoring the judgements against himself! :) I'm in another relationship, most of the time long-distance, which has its advantages and disadvantages. But one thing is, it gives time and space for reflection on keeping a self. I think it is much harder for women. we are socialized to be "nice" and give in. To co-operate and do for others. All good values, but if overdone (and we are taught to overdo) they are deadly, and lead to loss of self and identity and self-worth and to depression.
--Re: Effexor Your post to me » Yankeegirl
Posted by mercedes on July 25, 2003, at 3:48:55
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030723/msgs/245038.html
YankeeGirl, wish I would have been able to read it. That s**ks big time. I just sent a note to Dr Bob, and I'm staying right here. Thanks for staying too. Hope you can find it in you to retype it again. I think it will help me with my "psycological issues". : )
Mercedes
> Hey Mercedes, I just left a really long post about verbal abuse, but Dr. Bob did not post it because it is not about effexor. Harrumph........
Yankeegirl--
Re: Redirect: Resurect'g Pleasers w/men who are Cont » Yankeegirl
Posted by mercedes on July 25, 2003, at 11:35:11
In reply to Re: Redirect: Resurect'g Pleasers w/men who are Cont, posted by Yankeegirl on July 24, 2003, at 22:29:14
I agree with both of you. Now everything is messed up. I poored my heart & soul into my post regarding Pleaser w/men who are Controller's and now nobody is going to respond to it or share their feelings on the subject.
Mercedes
******************************
> > Oh, woops! but how does one sort that out, really? I mean, I am thinking about whether or not to pursue the Effexor thing, and exploring all this new stuff, and people who have experience. and I don't WANT to go off somewhere else...The medication issue is behind it all. (Sorry to be contrary.
>
> Daphnis, I agree with you. And Dr. Bob, other posters are talking about their issues. Why was my post deleted? Do you want ALL of us to go to the other site to talk about the reasons we are taking Effexor??? Yankeegirl--
Re: YG, Cher, Susy, Z and all-It's my fault, I res » CherC68
Posted by mercedes on July 25, 2003, at 13:11:11
In reply to Re: To read Y's post here - Dr. Bob » Yankeegirl, posted by CherC68 on July 25, 2003, at 7:36:42
Cher, again you are not alone. When I read the re-direct, my anxiety rose to a very high level. I, mercedes, me, resurected the subject, and when I read the redirect, my heart fell to the pit of my stomach, my stomach turned, I felt so guilty because I took the redirect personally. I felt like I was being attacked once again, just like I've been attacked before. I'm very sensitive to rejection and the "redirect" post hit me like a destruction ball. A very big ball like those that destroy buildings. Well, I guess I hit it right on the nose, I FELT DESTROYED, once again by those simple petty words, "redirect your" whatever Bob said. I stared at it for a long time, thinking to myself....I did something wrong AGAIN and now everybody will have to dispurse. My guilt feelings took over. It was not YankeeG who started it, it was me. I resurrected it. (By the way, YG was talking about a message she'd just written yesterday 07/24 in response to my post of 07/24, not the one posted on the other site dated 07/21.) I feel for sure that I will have another attack soon, cause things like this really get to me and my body/brain will react like 2 days later. I'll ZAP out. Those were my thoughts as I stared at the message that I translated to be, "Get out of here, we don't want you here". Rejection? YES. I'm truly affected by this. And worst of all, I poored my heart and soul out in my post and now no one will feel comfortable responding to it. I'm a failure, AGAIN.
It took a tremendous effort for me to rehash the abuse I suffered long time ago, but as I wrote about it, I felt that going back to the root of the problem is psycologically healing. I feel that alot of babbler's on this site had finally gotten the courage to explore there most hidden secrets and fears, including me, and we were finally begining to feel like somebody really cared and could relate. Now everything is messed up, and I caused it. Like I said before Cher, you are my inspiration because we've been through the torture of being raped among other things. I can relate to you beating up men. I too have had altercations with men, not as a kid, but as an adult. Twice men have said the word bi*ch around me (in anger of course) and I attack like a raging bull. I had the cops called on me once by the wimp that I never even got to hit. I think that hearing the word when a guy is belittling one of my freind by calling them a b**ch trigger's something in my subconcious and I lose it. I also wanted to pusue KDI's rage. She mentioned in one of her post, that she wished she could control or get rid of her rage (I'm pretty sure it was you KDI but if I'm wrong, pls excuse me). I recently talked to my pdoc about my fellings of rage, and I actually made my 22 yr old son move to his brother's because, like I told my pdoc, I felt that I was going to hurt him. I wonder if this is effexor related or if my son was just convienently here and a target for me. God knows, my son did alot of things to me, stealing, breaking into my house, cursing at me, belittld me verbally, stealing my car and so much more. Oh, he even hit me a couple of times but I cld the cops on him. When I moved here last Sept., I didn't even tell my sons I was moving. The cops located me when my son was shot and he was near death. Thankfully he survived but had intestinal & spinal injury and I brought him to my new house so I could take care of him. yep the co-depandant part of me took over, but what's a mother to do when I love him so much in spite of all that he has done to me. I took care of him for five months, both physically and financially. Yet the stronger he got, the stonger his mouth became. He was back to the verbally abusive son. That's when I told my pdoc that I was afraid of the feelings I was having...that I was going to really hurt him. Am I sick? Yes. Do I have issues? Yes. Am I psyco? Yes.
And you, all my psycoBabbler supportive friends were starting to get me to realize that I was not alone and WHAM....pls redirect. Rejection! again. So please, don't anyone feel like you had anything to do with this except for DB. Is it just a coincidence that the topic I was resurrecting was about "controlling men" and here, DB interjects, and tells us what to do, where to go, etc.
Luv you all and hugs to all of you. I say, keep on babbling cause this is a place like I've never seen before and have not had this type of support in a while. Thankfully I found it by looking up information on "Effexor". Oh, yes I did go to therapy for about 4 or 5 years but none in the past couple years. So I really need you guys.
Well, that's my $1.00 worth!
((((hugs)))
mercedes
> Please cut & paste the following to get Yankeegirl's original post.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030719/msgs/244989.html
>
>
> OH MY GOSH. I'm surprised all my posts are not deleted and Yankee - that's what I mean by being strong.
>
> If a man got in my face about something - I'd probably kick his butt - but something as minor as what Dr. Bob did by asking for us to move that discussion to another site actually gave me tears in my eyes because I was embarrassed.
>
> 1. for you because I didn't want your feelings hurt; and
> 2. because I always post myself babbling here in the effexor site about nothing & everything and now I'm really just embarrassed.
>
> I hope none of us have to leave here - but...dang I guess I'm too sensitive cause now I'm like - alrighty dumb a** see now everything is going to be messed up and you shouldn't have talked about anything but effexor and now others are getting in trouble etc. That's how I feel. I'm a friggin' adult and that's how I feel - upset by a comment by Dr. Bob - our host - and now my world is upside down.
>
> See I'm nuts.
>
> Love,
> Cher
>
>
>--
Re: YG, Cher, Susy, Z and all-It's my fault, I res » mercedes
Posted by zinya on July 25, 2003, at 14:14:17
In reply to Re: YG, Cher, Susy, Z and all-It's my fault, I res » CherC68, posted by mercedes on July 25, 2003, at 13:11:11
oh dear dear dear Mercedes...
You are our pathfinder, the one shining light on the road ahead, given your history on Effexor, given your recent breakthroughs in new courage, given your immense heart that just shines through every post and a gentle blend of maternalness and friend and fellow struggler ...
NOTHING is your fault here. Nada. Zilch. And nobody's going anywhere, okay? I say let's treat it as a suggestion which simply doesn't work at this point in time because it came out of the blue and out of context and unaware of the magic that we have co-created here which deserves to keep going. It is a lifeline for so many of us and it seems the need for this outlet here and now has resonated and the group has grown overnight ... talking of Effexor and also all that led us to Effexor... It was purely random that your post triggered this - heaven knows i've posted plenty of such posts about and encouraging others to share more about these background aspects of our depressions and anxieties and why we are here and what we've each struggled to learn ...
I do understand that if it had been a post of mine I would have reacted exactly the same, feeling shamed on the spot - that 'toxic shame' i was just talking about the other day. And by extension, i did even last night but perhaps because it was in response specifically to your post, i just felt anger -- the injustice of it and insensitivity just made me want to do what you describe as your reaction similar to Cher's, except that i'm a wimp physically and i just use my words instead... by e-mail too, you'll note. Please, dear mercedes, breathe very very deeply, zen breathing, in your belly, and exhale all that toxic stuff that just got inhaled in the last 12 hours here, and know that you are at NO 'fault' whatsoever. You are, in my eyes, our 'earth mother' of sorts :) ... [if that's an okay image with you :)
And goodness, these new factors you have related here.. Please see that you were doing something good and just and right for you and your son in asking him to leave. Drawing boundary lines and saying you cannot co-exist with verbal abuse, etc. is absolutely vital for you -- and it is for him as well. You did the *right* thing in saying "No" to such conduct. But my gosh, my heart goes out to you, it must have been wrenching. Of course, you reached out to him in his hour of need, but the moment he turned that around was indeed the moment for drawing your line in the sand. He must learn that he cannot deal with you or anyone else that way. Someday he will realize, but he's an adult now and must do that growing on his own, you can't do it for him.
My heart just goes out to you... I feel your angst and despair. I want so much to reach out and embrace you.
sending love and fond hugs,
zinya--
Re: mushing on, to YG KDI et al. and » mercedes
Posted by zinya on July 25, 2003, at 15:46:30
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030723/msgs/244971.html
Well, mercedes, it's me now who is going to do some resurrecting and finally responding to your earlier sharings..
So, to mercedes, Kim, Yankee, Cher, Susy, willie et al et al...
First let me say i'm on my 3rd day at 150 mg and i'm amazed at how little a reaction i've had to such a leap from 100 mg... Maybe taking it so slowly with already 2 months "under my belt" before going to 150 was a factor, but who knows? .... If i weren't still recovering from my back, i'd have a better idea cuz i think it's my back, not the Effexor which is making me wake up so early on just 5 hours sleep or less..
now, as to mercedes' post that got derailed, i doubt i could relate any more strongly than i do, dear mercedes... At moments, i felt like you were describing my marital life too... As a further idea, let me tell you, when i saw Sleeping with the Enemy -- only when it came on TV -- i shuddered at the parallels, except for the ending. I inadvertently married a complete and total perfectionist ... Now i'm a perfectionist too, in my work, but i NEVER impose my standards or perfectionism on others, spouse included. Not so for him. In retrospect there were 2 clues before we married, but i didn't see them, and the very night of our honeymoon, the mandating began, and his imposition of critieria for how i should always look and dress and how skinny i should be, the whole 9 yards (which to him, was too much - better not be more than 2 yards) :)) It was a six-year nightmare before i finally woke up to just what i'd been spending my every energy adapting to, predicting what he would fly off the handle about that day and trying to 'foolproof' things but never able to foresee exactly what he explode over and berate me, ridicule me, mostly all verbal, but twice physical... It feels like i might have talked about this here previously so i won't elaborate more if this is redundant... But indeed, i became the codependent pleaser to his daily controls, and I too had "married for life" feeling i had to make it work, tried to get him for years to go to marriage counseling, which he refused (When i married him, he was a medical student - in fact, i put him through med school - and he refused to "let any fellow doctor know about *his* life!") and when he found out how much it was costing for my own visits (and i let him manage the finances i was earning out of an effort not to 'emasculate' him), he insisted it was too much -- and i hadn't stumbled on someone i was getting much from yet anyway (3 visits) so i quit ... the marriage muddled on for 3-4 more years after that, with all kinds of verbal and some physical violence... The worst year was year #4 of our marriage when he started daily threatening me that he was going to have an affair with a nurse at his hospital if i didn't lose weight or do x or y... His "role model" FOR ME was Cher! !!? plus some Crazy Horse Saloon girls he saw in Oui magazine !?!!? it got ridiculous -- but of course i felt like it was my fault and i was a failure as a woman, etc... I kept thinking when he finally got some goal of his (like a boat) that maybe he'd start to relax and not be so driven, but by year 6, i realized that was never going to happen...
Because he was always griping that he was going to die by 40 cuz of his cholesterol levels, i think that made me start having dreams in year 6 that i was a widow ... When one day i realized i was having those recurrent dreams -- and feeling "relieved" in the dreams -- i realized that divorce was not worse than that, and after reflecting on it for a few more days, i just up and bolted, cold turkey. He then begged and threatened suicide if i left, but it was too late. I didn't even like him any more, much less love. We did go to therapy then, at his insistence, i agreed to oblige that... well, i won't go into any more detail, but within weeks i realized it was time to file for divorce, and i made the divorce (as my own 'lawyer' using a guidebook! ;) final on my 29th birthday as my gift to myself... and it was indeed one of the best things i ever did.
What was unfortunate was that i had stayed in it as long as i had, cuz 6 years of adapting to his rages and perverse perfectionisms had really internalized some bad self-talk inside me that took years to start purging, and i'm sure there are still some echoes all these years later...
Gosh, mercedes, i imagine those darkest days of yours when suicide seemed your only out in the marriage, and i'm so glad - for you and for us - that some "still small voice" in you knew that life was more than your husband, that you could find your own path...
I read your hair-pulling traumas and, my gosh, i related even to that, although it wasn't as brutal as yours sounded. If we were starting to leave the apt to go out, my husband would look at my hair and sometimes lead me back into the bathroom to recomb it cuz he didn't like the way it looked (you see what i mean about Sleeping with the Enemy? there was tons of stuff like that. He'd insist on having his favorite ice cream sandwiches in the freezer even when i was trying to diet and asked to forego them in the house for a while, but he'd refuse and instead he'd come home from all night in the hosptial on call and go to the freezer and COUNT the number of ice cream sandwiches still in the freezer to make sure i hadn't eaten one! What they made me do some nights he was gone all night was if i got hungry and ate one, i figured What the hell, i might as well eat the whole box and go out and buy another one to replace it so he won't know!!! how's THAT for dysfunctional!!)
When it got physical in my case, it was the awful sounding throwing of you, but instead he would start to strangle me - it happened twice - once cuz he couldn't find his socks (cuz he was too rattled being late for work to see straight) and the other was cuz we were sailing and the wind died and he was such a perfectionist he also railed at the sky when there was no wind) -- and then took it out on me... If he lost his keys, it was always my fault, etc. etc...
He too would apologize and say he loved me and then the next day it was back to berating. I too left once in that dreadful 4th year, and stayed with my folks for a week cuz i had spring vacation from work, on a pretext so my folks wouldn't suspect what was up... He begged me back and i went, but it was no good...for all the reasons you stated were true in your case too...
In my case, i too had a mom who was very deferential to my dad -- although i only learned later how she too had put her foot down once when i was 3 (an ultimatum to him to quit drinking, and he did it) for which i admire my mom so much but which i didn't realize in her at all growing up - i saw her more as a 'doormat' or 'mea culpa' housewife who did whatever dad wanted. Dad was at least not mean, but there was that underlying awareness of walking on a bit of eggshells which i inherited from mom cuz we knew that dad *could* explode, even though he really never did or almost. But he was very set in his ways. And lo and behold i unwittingly married someone with dad's worst qualities but without his best that had tempered him and that made him truly appreciate my mom and honor her even as he called the shots and she obliged.
dear, dear mercedes... the bottom line is i just want you to know and hopefully feel my empathy for all that you've been through and some of the basis for thinking i can relate to some big chunks of it. I too think it all started in childhood, but i think it's also true that we always keep having 'forks in the road' and when we chose to marry the husbands we did, that was another fork in the road, and we didn't yet have quite the antenna we needed to realize the instinct in us buried somewhere that was trying to turn on a lightbulb...
The way i see it, in part, we wound up having to do a lot of UNdoing before we could even start constructing a self for ourselves, the hard work of seeing how much we have reacted instead of acted, been too much a product of others' expectations ...
but we're on that path... and looking toward the light, with the darkness at our backs (at least more often than not)...
and here in this site we've been guided to is this great convergence of light... thanks for being such a great 'electrician' for lighting this corner ...
love and hugs,
zinya
poster:Dr. Bob
thread:244989
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030719/msgs/245297.html