Posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2005, at 21:39:55
In reply to Re: I beg to differ » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 15:42:23
> Free food and housing for means getting it forever and having to do nothing in return.
Ah.
I guess I think people have a right to have their basic needs met.
I don't believe you have to earn those rights.
> As for healthcare - at least in the state I live (and I think the entire country) - in it is illegal for public hospitals to turn people away for lack of funds.Yeah. I'm sure there are other 'reasons' one can appeal to... Besides which, whats the person going to do??? Hire themselves a lawyer???
> Providing more free clinics would actually save the taxpayers money.
Well... Theres a reason to do it then ;-)
> There is always a job of some sort. Some people just can't put away their pride and accept a lesser job than they think they should have.I see.
So if someone isn't working then it is their own fault.
They are too proud.
Or they are too lazy.
> I know it's not true in some of the older, more compact cities with tenements,Yup.
>but in most of the country even the poorest person has some type of small house, either owned or rented. They look like little shacks, but they have their own bathroom and a bit of land around, so there is room for the kiddies to run - and room for vegie gardens.
But is that what the poorest person has or is that what the poorest person with a house has. If you get what I mean.
> We have that, too. In fact, these days money should never be a reason not to go to college.So what would have happened to me?
Home, I suppose.
Would I have had to stay there till 18?
Till the end of school?
At which point I could get the loan thingie going and go to uni???The hardest thing... The hardest thing... Is to believe one can do school when people have a tendancy to tell you what a stupid lazy sack of sh*t you are all the time. About how you are never going to make it anyway.
It is too easy, it is natural, to just believe it. To not even try.
>They assume you will pay it back after graduation, but it is possible to make a point of low earnings.Heh heh. Like me. I'll be lucky to get a job with my PhD. Well... Pumping gas or cleaning toilets will always be an option I suppose...
> And if you teach or practice any medicine (doctor, nurse) in high need areas you loan can be at least partially forgiven. Same if you join the Peace Corp, or the national guard, or some volunteer service.
Ah.
Services deemed worthy.
> I don't know what they are right now, but we have education programs for people with disabilities. Mental illness is considered a disability.So... When I was too sick to do varsity I'd have to do an 'education program'???
> Probably in one of the blue states. They tend to have higher taxes and more social programs.I guess I'd have to hope that I was.
Otherwise I would be in the sh*t...
> But I seriously doubt if you would starve, no matter what state you lived in. I've never heard of anyone starving here.No.
I do believe I'd steal before I'd starve.
I think most people would.
And there is too much food in the US for people to starve...
> Contrary to popular belief, we're not really heartless. [grin]I don't think Americans (as individual people) are more or less heartless than individual people from most other countries.
But I also believe that there does tend to be a fairly general ignorance about this..
The people who are poor aren't 'in your faces'.
Because they can't afford to be.
People turn to crime
Prostitution
and guns first...Thats where I'd be in America.
Drug dealing.
I'm fairly sure of that.
> There is a pretty large gap between middle class and poverty. Lots of room for most of that 25%.Hmm. And 25% is one quarter. One quarter of American residents. Thats quite a few...
> It also depends on how you count income. Some of that 25% is doing things "off the books" meaning unreported. Restaraunt workers get tips that aren't counted - even yard workers and house cleaners often work off the books. And they can make a pretty decent living.Under the table work. Thats what its called over here. Prostitution used to be under the table. Not anymore. Drug dealing is. Guns tend to be. House cleaning is typically. You just ask 'will you be requiring my IRD (tax) number' to see whether it is under the table work or not. So I imagine that some of those 25% have to be doing under the table work in order to live. And I imagine some of those who aren't in the 25% are also doing this...
There is also the point that tax 'avoidance' is illegal. Tax 'evadance' on the other hand is not. You just need yourself a smart tax lawyer to tell you how to do this... Thats not seen as 'going around the system' but IMO it is a way for the wealthy... The very very very wealthy to (in effect) not pay (as much) in taxes. Who do you think benefits from these things the most? The low 25% doing under the table work in order to 'make a pretty decent living' or the rich who manage to evade their taxes?
> Right. Median income is a better number to use. The median income here varies by state, but the overall figure for a family of 4 is roughly 65K.
> hmmmmm. I wonder why they say 4? Two of them probably aren't working.Or maybe they are the best stats.
Maybe it is the nuclear family who has the best median income stats.
Probably two of them ARE working. So that makes it look better than it would if they considered families with 6 children. Or solo parents with 2 children. Or a single person even.> But - on redistribution - the Hiltons and Gates of the world do also provide thousands of jobs. I wonder how big a mess it would make if that were to be redistributed.
Sorry... How does millions or is it billions of dollars in their bank accounts provide thousands of jobs???? Isn't that more to do with the worth of the company or corporation or whatever it is? How much profit they make as an individual doesn't bear on that.
> I'm assuming you are talking about people from third world countries? I wonder how many countries with high welfare would even consider letting them in.
We let in a certain number of refugees each year.
Refugees go straight on welfare.
Need to do English Language courses, typically.
Need social workers to assist them with supermarkets, bills, telephones, cars, all the intricacies of life in a developed country.
Need psychologists to assist them with culture shock and PTSD.We do a little bit.
Yeah, you need to make sure the country doesn't go broke.
But those refugees have kids
and their kids have kids
And in a couple generations you just have more Kiwi's.
:-)
> It sounds good on paper, I guess. But where is the incentive to work?Oh.
So paid work is the measure of contribution to society
And contribution to society (via paid work) is what gives one the right to food and shelter???Where is the incentive to work???
Believe it or not one is still a bit better off working.
Believe it or not some people derive satisfaction from a job well done.
In other words, work ain't that bad.
Most people like to feel productive.
Like to feel that they are doing something worthwhile.If people don't get this (if people don't want to work)
Then why not?
Why not?
IMO something may be going wrong there and they need HELP and EDUCATION not condemnation and being left to steal or starve.
> Our company has an office in Norway. The guy in the office next to mine was thinking of going over there for a couple of years. Then he found out that over there it's your *assets* that get taxed, not your income.Ok.
> His wife has some acreage that had been in the family for years. It's just land. But it's assessed to be worth a fair chunk of money. There is no way he could pay the Norwegian taxes on it.Right. Then I suppose there is an incentive to either (a) develop the land in some way so as to be doing something productive (ie money earning) with it. Or to (b) sell at least part of it to let someone else do the same.
Not just to sit on it...
> But even the poor can become rich if they work and manage money properly.The poor tend to be the poor because they are not working.
Or because their outgoings take up what they do earn.
It is easier to think of saving money when it comes to just worrying about you.
When there are kids, well... That makes things harder.
Sure, most people (though not typically the poorest people) can save.I do have the feeling that you are talking more what I would consider middle class and how they might be able to become rich.
Whereas I am talking about poor people and how they might be able to have a middle class life.
poster:alexandra_k
thread:495094
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20050509/msgs/497870.html