Posted by alexandra_k on May 10, 2005, at 23:55:24
In reply to Re: I beg to differ » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 10, 2005, at 13:13:00
> That was exactly the point. Most of the people that manage to amass a million don't make any more than those that don't.
Yeah. There is something to the notion of saving and learning the value of a dollar with respect to saving.
>No matter how tight things are, I believe that anyone can make do on 5% to 10% less - and save the rest. Putting away that little bit regularly has to be a top priority.
Anyone earning more than 5-10% more than what they need to meet their basic needs can save that money, sure.
> >>>>Do you think there should be free access to healthcare, education, reasonable food and housing etc?
> >>>>Would you be prepared to pay more tax so that that could happen?
> The second part of your question answers the first one - nothing is free.Okay. Tax the rich so the poor get free access to health care etc etc. The poor get something for free.
>But yes, I would pay more in taxes to increase access to education and healthcare. Free food and housing is a maybe.
Hmm. That sounds a bit back to front to me. I would have thought food and housing would be considered to be more 'basic' needs.
> >>>>What happens if you are out of a job?
> >>>>How many weeks or months do you qualify for assistance?
> >>>>Then what happens to you?
> In the state where I live (one of the least out-of-work friendly ones) you get 6 months of a pittance for unemployment.Sh*t.
> What happens is you find a way to survive.Or not...
>Hubby and I *both* lost jobs in the '86 downturn of the oil biz - along with hundred of thousands of other people (and the jobs are still shrinking. last count 1.1 million jobs lost in the industry)
> But we made it somehow. Renegotiated the mortgate, took what work we cound find, etc, until we got something more reasonable. Thankfully because of our 'always put something away' thinking we did have some savings and no debt besides the house.Wow. But what if you can't actually get a job in the first place? If you have no mortgage to renegotiate? If you haven't even made any earnings that you hopefully managed to save a little of?
Then what happens to you?
> I, myself, don't equate best welfare with best standard of living.Fair point. It is hard to figure out how to cash out 'best standard of living'. I guess what I think of when I consider the best standard of living is the people who live with the worst standard of living. That is the 'worst case scenario' for living in that country, if you like. When I consider that situation, well, that is pretty much my situation so that is probably why I like to imagine it that way. To put myself, my childhood in different places round the world and figure out where I would have been best off.
>I think we could use more welfare, but it should be geared towards re-education.
And if people starve or freeze first then there are less to re-educate ;-)
> >>>But what makes it most likely that you will get an education?
> >>>The fact that your parents did.> My father went to a couple of years of college and didn't do well so he dropped out. He spent the rest of his life in chemical plants. My mother started nursing school but quit when she got married.
My mother started nursing school too, but quit (as she was expected to do) when she got married too :-)
My father was a builder.But I beat the stats :-)
> >>>What makes it most likely that you will have money?
> >>>The fact that your parents did.
> My father was a lousy money manager. He never asked how much something cost, just how much the payment was. While he made a "decent" lower middle/middle class income we had no extra cash. I made all my own clothes for school and bought used jeans for $2.00. No money for college.My father walked when I was 7.
My mother went on welfare.
We didn't receive financial support from him.
The way that works over here is that he pays the govt. a certain amount. And the govt. pays my mother a benefit.
Till I was 14 and I was taken out of her care and put in a social welfare home.
Thats govt. assistance again.
> >>>What makes it most likely that you will get a high paying job?
> >>>The fact that at least one of your parents did.
> Neither of my parents made much money. I was ashamed to have friends over - no curtains, no rugs, etc. The only decorative items were given to us. Neither took pride in the exterior of the house - if anything got weeded or planted I was the one doing it.
> So - sure the playing field doesn't start out level.
> But...> I got married young to get out of my miserable surroundings - and got divorsed not too long after.
Yeah. I guess you have to marry unless you have money or unless your parents do... Or unless you manage to pull a good job for yourself.
Left the home at 16
(Basically an adult in NZ)
I stayed in school.
Independent Youth Benefit.
Thats welfare again.
Went from there to university.
Student allowance.
Welfare again.
We can borrow the full cost of tuition
Money for books and stationary
And enough money to scrape by
(If we don't qualify for a benefit)
Off the government.
You get a big student loan.
But if you make the minimum repayments forever it ain't too bad. Just think of it as another form of taxation :-)
Everyone can study in NZ.
Everyone qualifies for a loan.
You don't have to make repayments until you earn over the threshold. Then they take x amount of cents out of every dollar you earn above the threshold.
When you die the debt is wiped.I have never been married.
At that point I:
>
> 1) Went to the local (25 miles away) community college to get a technical degree. I was so poor I qualified for every government grant, loan, workstudy that was out there. In addition to that I worked three part time jobs (at the same time!) and took care of my son.I can't even manage to study sometimes. Have had to have time off.
Sickness Benefit.
Government again.
I can do a bit of work while I'm studying - but not too much
Otherwise I end up getting sick again.
And I have to go back on the sickness benefit.
> When I finished that bit (in the 2 years it's supposed to take) I had enough training to get me a job in the 'big city.' So I packed up and moved and enrolled in night school. I was lucky - my job was early (I got out at 3:30) and I could arrange my 10-12 semester hours of school to only take 2 days a week so I still had plenty of time to spend with the munchkin.> Five years of night school and the downturn hit and I was made redundant. Somehow I managed to get back to school - making money tutoring on campus. Then my old job wanted me back, so I went there part time which eased up the cash flow. Meanwhile hubby got a new job - but it paid commission so that was impossible to count on.
> So, yes the playing field isn't level. But I wouldn't trade those years of struggle for the dole for anything.
Hmm.
I don't know that I would trade my years of welfare for US residency ;-)
Where would I be in america?
> And one more thing:
> >>>>Not just because of continuing racisism etc which continues to shackle them but because in the race of life they were shackled from the starting line. It isn't enough to simply remove the shackles and expect them to catch up with their competitors who were never shackled.
> I read last week that over 75% of black Americans have middle class or better incomes. I'm just guessing, but I think it would probably be about the same percentage of whites.Interesting. Lets assume the latter. Then what interests me the most is what that other 25% are up to.
Just how much poorer are those poorest people?
It is the highs and lows that concern me the most. You can have the very very very very insanely rich. If you factor in their billions into the 'average income' equation then I suppose they make a fair few people who earn NOTHING look like they are 'upper middle' class.
Thats whats concerning.
Those at the top are really really really at the top.
But those at the bottom...
Consider the lives of the people near the bottom. People from all sorts of different developed countries. Would these people be better off in America??? No. I would say that for them the USA would be about the worst developed place in the world that they could possibly find themselves in.With respect to Norway and Sweden...
Most working families (and most of them are) have 2 cars. Comfortable homes. I think it is something like 2 years pre / post natal leave from work. Maybe something like 3 wks holiday entitlement which they HAVE to take every year.
The highest taxes in the world.
But look where that money goes...
Education
Health
Welfare.IMO
Here we have a caring society.
But yeah... Their anscestors were the vikings... They ran around stealing everyone elses gold so the countries are fairly well off. But even if the country is well off the ideology of the country has a lot to do with what the govt. is going to do with that money and what its priorities are...And political campaigns are expensive...
I guess you need the big business to support that to make that feasible...
But then you probably need to get their approval on your policies...
And the rich get richer.
poster:alexandra_k
thread:495094
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20050509/msgs/496262.html