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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by qbsbrown on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:56
Been on 1.5 for over one year. Got dumb, and tried cold turkey. Almost ended up in the hospital 3 weeks later, with symptoms across the board.
No now i've reentroduced it, and will wean. It's making me ultra depressed, and does nothing for my anxiety anymore, sugar pills.My doc recommended neurontin or cymbalta.
Any suggestions, reccomendations, experiences?
Regards,
Brian
Posted by willyee on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:56
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Are you looking to quit benzos altogther,cause thats a story of its own.If not and youre looking simply to switch i have to drop bad news and say just my opinion but neroution is not gonna do it.
Xanax is an option but i never liked xanax cause it never seemed as solid as klonopin,if it were me id prob go with ativan.
Good luck
Posted by Declan on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:56
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Nothing helps in withdrawal as much as some of what you're currently taking, and nothing else is as efficient either. So it's just when you take your bit of Klonopin, and that depends on whether the days are worse than the nights. In a benzo withdrawal I preferred to take that bit in the morning to protect me from the day, and at night I could at least lie safe in bed. But insomnia would be worse that way.
Declan
Posted by bipolarspectrum on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Posted by qbsbrown on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Neurontin! (nm), posted by bipolarspectrum on January 13, 2006, at 16:26:54
Yes, the goal is to be off benzos completely. I've read about converting over to valium and tapering, due to the fact it has almost 4 times the half-life of klono.
Only thing is warding the barage of panic attacks that will come during this. Wondering if an ssri will help, or only further the damage.
Seems kinda counter productive to take another medication, to get off of one.regards,
Brian
Posted by blueberry on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Benzo withdrawal is tough. I read somewhere though that you should embrace the pain from it, because on the bright side it means your body is adjusting and recovering. Yeah right. Easier said than done.
One common method I read about was to switch over to valium and then slowly taper off that. Its longer half life and other subtle differences supposedly make it smoother.
On the natural side, there are some good options to help...that is, with these you can immediately reduce your dose a lot and not miss it, and taper down easier. The best I tried when weaning off xanax was magnesium glycinate. The magnesium itself is calming and soothing, but the glycine in it seemed really powerful. I was able to cut my xanax dose in half overnight. Taurine is another one. Or magnesium taurinate. Amino acid combos at the health food store that have gaba, glycine, taurine, and inositol are helpful too. None of these are as powerful as the benzos, but they can sure make it easier. They did for me anyway.
These won't get rid of the withdrawals. But they can significantly reduce them and allow you to step down in doses faster. And when it's all over, the amino acids can be tapered down pretty easily.
Posted by qbsbrown on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by blueberry on January 13, 2006, at 18:09:53
Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna taper slow off of valium for the time being. If underlying anxeity is still there after it's gone, i'll get on an ssri, or ssnri.
But for the time being, i'd like to get med free, and feel myself once again.Plus, i think adding another drug, during a drug withdrawal, is just adding gas to the fire.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Re: Neurontin!, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 17:10:03
Valium is used a lot to detox from xanax and alchohol. Never saw it used with klonopin though. It worked very well with the above. Most people had some sort of Ad added. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by mattw84 on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Posted by yxibow on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
> Been on 1.5 for over one year. Got dumb, and tried cold turkey. Almost ended up in the hospital 3 weeks later, with symptoms across the board.
> No now i've reentroduced it, and will wean. It's making me ultra depressed, and does nothing for my anxiety anymore, sugar pills.
>
> My doc recommended neurontin or cymbalta.
>
> Any suggestions, reccomendations, experiences?
Well other than another benzodiazepine which doesn't cause as much depression, I think Klonopin is associated anecdotally from what I have seen here with more depression than others, very slow tapering. If you truly want to discontinue all benzodiazepines -- and that's a fine goal, although they're perfectly safe anxiolytics even for long term use, the name of the game is SLOW.There shouldnt be very many visible signs of "withdrawal." If there is, it is way too fast a taper no matter what any treatise might say about it. It may take quite a while, but there is no point risking seizures and discomfort. It could take some weeks or months, splitting half tablets and the like.
Crosstapering to Valium is a possibility; it has about a 24 hour in vitro half life; Klonopin has up to about 16, sometimes less. I currently use high dose Valium personally, and did a cross-taper over an extended period of time. I found that adding the extra Valium before removing the Klonopin works much better, and makes for a less rotten week. This took time, a period of weeks. There should be no rush, or there will be "withdrawal" and that is not the name of the game.
I hope you feel better
Tidings
-- Jay
Posted by willyee on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Among good otc products such as magnesium,l theanine,TAURINE kava kava,5 capsules broken open into water and mixed can be a great help
Posted by djmmm on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:57
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
> Been on 1.5 for over one year. Got dumb, and tried cold turkey. Almost ended up in the hospital 3 weeks later, with symptoms across the board.
> No now i've reentroduced it, and will wean. It's making me ultra depressed, and does nothing for my anxiety anymore, sugar pills.
>
> My doc recommended neurontin or cymbalta.
>
> Any suggestions, reccomendations, experiences?
>
> Regards,
>
> BrianThe key is to decrease your dose VERY slowly, this process will most likely take months. Towards the end, you can taper with Valium (because of it's VERY long half-life),and try supplementing with GABA or even Neurontin and other GABA-like drugs.
I was, at one point, taking 4mg of Klonopin, it has taken me over a year to get the dose down to 1 mg a day (two doses of .5mg)
Posted by RobertDavid on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:58
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawa, posted by djmmm on January 14, 2006, at 7:38:58
I've gotten off klonopin a few times by dropping .125 to .25 every two weeks. The key for me was an extreamly slow tapper. Each time I'd have the same issues. Felt better day 1 and 2, sleeping problems day 3,4,5. Slight increase of anxiety through about day 10. Felt okay by day 14. Then start the process over.
That being said each time I was off all my social anxiety returned, I tried other meds, but nothing worked as well for social anxiety as klonopin. So for me, the search is for the med to take with it or perhaps replace it to improve my mood. Next month EMSAM an MAOI patch is due to be approved an my doc thinks it may be an answer. We'll see. Good luck.
Posted by reefer on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:58
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
The only medication that has been partly successful in benzo withdrawal in some studies is carbamazepine and it's newer relative(metabolite) oxcarbazepine. You might wanna look into those. I would suggest switching to diazepam(valium) and then do a very very slow taper. When down to the equivalent dose of 0.25 mg clonazepam or 5 mg diazepam i would suggest switching to 3 mg eszopiclone or 10 mg zolpidem for 2 weeks and then cut the dose in half every week until completly off. I'm very tired it's almost 5 in the morning so if what i write doesn't make any sense i'm sorry i'll look at it in the morning again.
Posted by qbsbrown on January 15, 2006, at 0:15:58
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by reefer on January 14, 2006, at 21:19:04
Becuase i am already super tired and motivationless on klonopin, i don't want to add to that fire and be furter sedated.
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2006, at 18:19:04
In reply to I fear Neurontin, posted by qbsbrown on January 14, 2006, at 22:39:16
That's understandable have you tried valium. The tapers I saw went very quickly a matter of a few days or a week. The person who had the hardest time was a girl who was taking 6mg of xanax and drinking a quart of alchohol. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by 4WD on January 16, 2006, at 22:09:50
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by reefer on January 14, 2006, at 21:19:04
What symptoms do you get from Klonopin withdrawal, other than return of anxiety?
Marsha
Posted by zero on January 18, 2006, at 23:39:13
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
Posted by qbsbrown on January 21, 2006, at 3:38:53
In reply to Tegretol (nm) » qbsbrown, posted by zero on January 18, 2006, at 23:39:13
What's a typical dosage during a withdrawal?
I've done 50-100mgs before, which lifted me out of a 3 year depression. Only prob was serious insomnia.
Posted by erik98225 on February 7, 2006, at 19:52:35
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by Declan on January 13, 2006, at 15:58:06
> Nothing helps in withdrawal as much as some of what you're currently taking, and nothing else is as efficient either.
Is it OK to use a short-acting benzo to reduce the unpleasant effects of stopping a long-acting one?
I'm trying to get off 2.0mg Klonopin (currently at the 0.875 stage). I have some 1.0mg Xanax's left over from a previous prescription, and I am wondering if I can take a Xanax if I get a really bad withdrawal episode.
This "should" be OK, since Xanax only lasts a few hours vs. several days for Klonopin -- but I am also concerned that taking the Xanax could interfere with the Klonopin withdrawal.
What are your thoughts?
I see pdoc again on Friday and will ask him about this too.
The goal is not necessarily to get off benzos, but to not have to take them every day as is the case with klonopin. If I end up having to take a benzo, I'd rather only take it as needed.
Posted by Sandi L. on February 9, 2006, at 0:28:05
In reply to Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on January 13, 2006, at 13:37:33
> Been on 1.5 for over one year. Got dumb, and tried cold turkey. Almost ended up in the hospital 3 weeks later, with symptoms across the board.
> No now i've reentroduced it, and will wean. It's making me ultra depressed, and does nothing for my anxiety anymore, sugar pills.
>
> My doc recommended neurontin or cymbalta.
>
> Any suggestions, reccomendations, experiences?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Ive been taking Klonopin for 7 years!! Not alot I figured .5mg per day. Well, I want to stop, it seems as it doesn't work anymore anyway... My Doc says cold turkey is dangerous, I was determined. He prescribed Zanax in case I needed it. I had no idea what I was in store the withdrawal has been horrifying. Night sweats, panic, shakes, fatique, tremors, lots of freaky feelings... I wake up thinking things like Brain anurisms (forgive spelling), another panic attack (Ive had 4 in the couple months of only trying, and then giving in after a couple days) I want to be normal again, any suggestions
Thanks for any help,
Sandi
Posted by zero on February 9, 2006, at 1:22:02
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by Sandi L. on February 9, 2006, at 0:28:05
First, use the Benzo.org strategy of switching slowly from your .5mg/day of Klonopin to 10mg/day of Valium (equivalent dose).
Once comfortable on the 10mg/day Valium, lower to 9mg/day Valium for 3 weeks or a month, then to 8mg/day... etc. Taper down on the Valium as fast as you feel comfortable doing.
Use 2mg tablets of Valium and break in half (they're scored) to get 1mg.
Go faster at the start, then really slow taper at the end.
Then, when down to about 2mg/day Valium, introduce brand name Tegretol, 200mg/day for a few days, then as you come off the Valium, add another 200mg Tegretol (maxing at 400mg./day Tegretol). The Tegretol should "cover" a lot of the physical symptoms of benzo withdrawal, plus stop panic attacks.
Continue using the Tegretol as long as you feel you need it, then slowly taper off (easy to do - no withdrawal).
Valium has a longer half-life than Klonopin, comes in tiny-dose 2mg pills, and is non-depressing.
Adding Tegretol after a fast and very ugly Valium taper (15mg/day Valium to zero in 3wks.), made my life completely manageable - almost all benzo withdrawal symptoms were lifted.
There are a lot of PubMed citations on using Tegretol in benzo withdrawal (PubMed search on "benzodiazepine withdrawal +Tegretol")
This, from my experience - everyone is different - hope it helps.
Good luck!
z.
Posted by qbsbrown on February 9, 2006, at 3:11:30
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by Sandi L. on February 9, 2006, at 0:28:05
i know exactly what you are going through. It's the toughest thing ever! Paxil, alcohol,tobacco,effexor withdrawal was cake compared to benzo withdrawal.
There are two great sites.
benzoisland.org
benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htmBoth are based off of a British doctors work. She ran a benzo withdrawal clinic for over 10 years, and had the best sucsess with getting people off of them.
Basically, it is a gradual switch from klono to valium (because it has a much longer half-life, i.e it stays in body much longer).
Then once fully crossed over to valium, you begin a gradual taper.Xanax is probably the worst thing you could take for a klonopin withdrawal. It itself has a much shorter half-life than klonopin, thus itself has WORSE withdrawal effects.
Go check out those sites!
Best of luck,
Brian
Posted by erik98225 on February 13, 2006, at 3:11:06
In reply to Re: Any good meds to use during KLONOPIN withdrawal??, posted by qbsbrown on February 9, 2006, at 3:11:30
> i know exactly what you are going through. It's the toughest thing ever! Paxil, alcohol,tobacco,effexor withdrawal was cake compared to benzo withdrawal.
I got off Paxil in a month without any withdrawal. It was replaced with Lexapro (much less addictive) after another month.
I've been through alcohol withdrawal. It sucks a__ but lasts 3 days.
I'm not ready to undertake tobacco withdrawal -- from what I hear, it's even worse than heroin. I smoke about 1 pack a day, started when I was 14 and too immature to understand the meaning of addiction (I'm 25 now). It can give you cancer but takes 30+ years to do so; pdoc agrees that it's the last withdrawal to undertake.
FYI: I have ADHD and SAD. Ritalin withdrawal isn't that bad (you just get sleepy). On the other hand, benzodiazepine withdrawal (for the social anxiety disorder) probably feels worse than Hell.
> There are two great sites.
>
> benzoisland.org
> benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htmI've read the Ashton Manual and showed it to my pdoc. I don't think the 2 year taper (or whatever it is) is necessary, but I'm glad that my pdoc is not benzophobic and is allowing me to taper at my own pace. I got stupid once and went off 2.0mg Klonopin cold turkey. Ended up in the ER.
> Xanax is probably the worst thing you could take for a klonopin withdrawal. It itself has a much shorter half-life than klonopin, thus itself has WORSE withdrawal effects.I was initially prescribed Xanax, then asked if I could have something that only needs to be taken once a day, hence the Klonopin. I never had any symptoms of benzo withdrawal while taking Xanax -- the half life is so short that you're basically withdrawn after every dose.
Pdoc said that taking Xanax could make the Klonopin withdrawal worse and that I shouldn't take it during Klonopin withdrawal. However, he said that once I'm off Klonopin, I can take Xanax occasionally when needed without risk of dependency (IIRC benzos are addictive when taken daily for at least a month).
I will avoid the Xanax until I'm down to 0mg Klonopin (probably about 2 months from now) and then take it only when absolutely necessary (why it was originally prescribed).
Thanks for your help.
Erik
Posted by qbsbrown on February 13, 2006, at 4:52:53
In reply to Benzo Withdrawal » qbsbrown, posted by erik98225 on February 13, 2006, at 3:11:06
Good to hear Erik, sounds like a good plan.
So is the taper to subtract .125 every week? Typically rule of thumb is to take 10 percent off each week (20 being aggressive).
You're right, the Ashton method is SO long (i went straight to valium, skipped the crossover step), and im impatient, so im going at my own pace, as slowly as i can.
I too almost ended up in the ER from klono withdrawal as well. I thought once i was out of my system (10 days at longest), i'd be in the clear. Boy was i wrong.
Best wishes,
Brian
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