![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 9:34:33
In the real world, people practice communicating in polite, inoffensive words. Points can be made and information shared without the use of profanity. Debate can be entered into without resorting to attacks.
In the uncivilised world, people communicate with infamatory statements, expletives, and sharp sticks.
I prefer to exist in a civilised world. It is a real place that I have thrived in for 42 years. When faced with the present-day barbarians of the earth, I choose not to associate myself with them. This is not due to fear but a wish not to stoop to the ignorant, in-your-face brutality they appear to thrive on.
This is not a weakness. This is called Strength of Character. I have made many fine friends here on Babble who also have this quality.
I am not a wimp. I am not an ostrich. I deal with my problems and the problems of the world head on. I am a strong, sensible person. If someone is rude to me and I tell them to leave me alone, that request should be honoured.
Posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 10:16:29
In reply to The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 9:34:33
I agree!
I also think that sometimes here on babble we try too hard to be "nice" to people who haven't proven that they deserve such treatment.
Sometimes the outpouring of forgiveness and sweet support and attempts at understanding to a person who has acted like a complete jerk (and I mean COMPLETE -- not the lapses that we all make from time to time) are just beyond me.
I consider myself to be a generally (85%? 90%?) "nice" person, but I also have personal limits about how much C*** I will take from people who seem genuinely uninterested in working on a 2-way road.
Sometimes it seems like we try to salvage the unsalvagable. Why is this? Is it because we want the glory of 'talking down' or 'civilizing' a difficult person? Is it because we don't want to admit failure? I'm not asking these questions to be cruel and they're really NOT hypotheticals. I really do wonder about this.
Sometimes it's just honestly hard for me to 'get' all the 'turn the other cheek' stuff, esp. when it doesn't seem to work. If you can tentatively get someone to keep a lid on it by backing up and coddling and soothing them, and saying just the right things, and avoiding saying stuff that sets them off -- is it worth it? Is that a relationship worth keeping alive?
Anyway, maybe I'm just in an ornery mood today and I hope you all don't consider me 'beyond salvation'. But I really am curious about some of the responses to the recent curser and why some of you reached out with compassion instead of laying down the law or plain ignoring him/her.
Curiously yours, (honestly curious - not being sarcastic!]
jenStar
Posted by gardenergirl on August 31, 2004, at 10:49:33
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » partlycloudy, posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 10:16:29
> But I really am curious about some of the responses to the recent curser and why some of you reached out with compassion instead of laying down the law or plain ignoring him/her.
>Jen,
Although you posted this to PC, I am thinking that she's not one of those about whom you are curious. If I am one, I would be glad to give a direct answer, but I don't want to assume...Warmly,
gg
Posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 10:58:47
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » JenStar, posted by gardenergirl on August 31, 2004, at 10:49:33
Yes, I was asking to a general audience, not PC. I probably should have changed the title of my post - sorry about that. :)
I would be curious to know your thoughts! Thanks in advance for sharing.
JenStar
Posted by gardenergirl on August 31, 2004, at 11:15:12
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » gardenergirl, posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 10:58:47
Well, I guess in part you could say I was practicing "I" statements. I think there is often some value in expressing directly how you feel about a post within civility guidelines. For example, I asked ron1963 to refrain from using profanity in posts to me. I noticed he stopped cursing (at least in posts to me, but I think in general) when I expressed my offense at it. Perhaps hearing it from an "injured party" as a former supervisor used to say makes it more meaningful than just following rules. It certainly makes it more personal.
In addition, I think responding with calm and staying focused on the behavior can help diffuse anger. I remember a time once when I was teaching, and a very intimidating man was "in my face" right in front of the rest of the class about a failing grade that I gave him. It was quite nerve-wracking, but I used what I had learned in school about sticking to the facts and behavior without personalizing the exchange to diffuse him. (Boy were my knees knocking on the inside, though!)
I also am curious about how threads like that can evolve. What are the emotions and needs behind it? Just what goal or motivation does the poster have? I suppose I go into T mode a bit, which maybe isn't fair to the poster without prior warning. My husband would say I'm using my "therapy voice" at times like that. But I think that the only way I can learn this is to ask directly. And to do so with any hope of getting an answer (just like in therapy) requires phrasing the questions from an empathic stance. Perhaps that comes across as coddling or something similar. I suppose I prefer to think of it as modelling a more effective behavior (at least I hope more effective).
Although I had a moment of slippage in there, too. So I guess I still need to work on it! :)
Does this make sense? Or am I just babbling on my own planet?
gg
Posted by Atticus on August 31, 2004, at 11:20:16
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » partlycloudy, posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 10:16:29
Well, here's my take on it, for what it's worth. I think the guiding social "norm" on Babble is compassion. All you have to do is scroll down Social or any of the other boards and you'll see an outpouring of it in post after post. Sadly, that's no longer true in much of the non-Babble world. But I think Babblers who are here for any length of time begin to internalize what the expected social norms are here. That's why you get people posting like mad when someone seems especially down or even suicidal. I think that some people tried to apply this virtual community's standards and bring the "curser" into the fold. But he/she was just too filled with rage to listen, it seemed. Everyone who tried to say, "That's not how we behave here (or at least try to behave here)" just ended up getting flamed. So Dr. Bob had to put him in our version of "time out" to cool off. It might be a matter of this person simply not understanding how interactions around here work; or, conversely, as you said, he/she just might be a mean person who's not able or willing to address and discuss why he/she came at everyone that way, or to examine the roots of such meanness. Guess we'll find out in a week if the "curser" returns, huh? Atticus
Posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 11:57:08
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » JenStar, posted by gardenergirl on August 31, 2004, at 11:15:12
hi gg,
thanks for sharing your thoughts & experiences, esp. about the guy confronting you in class. That DOES sound scary, but it sounds like you handled it very well.I don't want to give the impression that I'm a hothead who likes to fight everyone IRL -- I'm not! I actually have stories similar to yours, although mine are from my management days, where I had to deal with very verbally aggressive (and sometimes physically threatening body language) people in front of big groups. I used the same tactics you spoke of and the ones we're supposed to use here (I statements, firm but non-aggressive non-personalized talk, remaining calm but in control, refusing to fight, etc.) It always works and it gives me a good feeling to diffuse a problem. In fact (although it might not come thru here!) I have a reputation for being cool and collected under pressure, and for being a good people person...
I think you're right about modelling effective behavior - hopefully that will help people see the right way to behave.
I guess the part where I disagree, though, is with the philosophy that everyone is worthy of being treated nicely or modelled to. Sometimes people ARE just out to cause trouble for trouble's sake. Sometimes a slap on the wrist is more effective than role-modelling to them, at least at first. Some people are just out to push buttons, push limits, and bully others, and a sharp reprimand followed by role-modelling seems to work best.
I guess I sometimes feel that when we say to a poster, "you seem to feel a lot of anger. What's bothering you?" instead of "cut this behavior out, it's completely inappropriate" it tells them that it's OK to behave that way and that it's OK to use verbally abusive language. In a sense, they've "won" a battle.
If people ARE asking for help, or needing help, there are still some norms that must be followed in order to get it. If EVERY behavior is excused because someone needs help or doesn't know how to relate, why should the rest of us bother with the rules? Maybe I just have less sympathy for my fellow sufferers...I'll have to think about that!
Anyway, I really do appreciate your calming influence. Whether you're in "T Mode" or not, it's hard to say...wouldn't being a T be part of your core personality? You went into therapy because you had a gift for talking and understanding people, so it makes sense that it would come out during difficult situations. I appreciate reading your responses, so please don't stop giving your insights!
thanks.
JenStar> Well, I guess in part you could say I was practicing "I" statements. I think there is often some value in expressing directly how you feel about a post within civility guidelines. For example, I asked ron1963 to refrain from using profanity in posts to me. I noticed he stopped cursing (at least in posts to me, but I think in general) when I expressed my offense at it. Perhaps hearing it from an "injured party" as a former supervisor used to say makes it more meaningful than just following rules. It certainly makes it more personal.
>
> In addition, I think responding with calm and staying focused on the behavior can help diffuse anger. I remember a time once when I was teaching, and a very intimidating man was "in my face" right in front of the rest of the class about a failing grade that I gave him. It was quite nerve-wracking, but I used what I had learned in school about sticking to the facts and behavior without personalizing the exchange to diffuse him. (Boy were my knees knocking on the inside, though!)
>
> I also am curious about how threads like that can evolve. What are the emotions and needs behind it? Just what goal or motivation does the poster have? I suppose I go into T mode a bit, which maybe isn't fair to the poster without prior warning. My husband would say I'm using my "therapy voice" at times like that. But I think that the only way I can learn this is to ask directly. And to do so with any hope of getting an answer (just like in therapy) requires phrasing the questions from an empathic stance. Perhaps that comes across as coddling or something similar. I suppose I prefer to think of it as modelling a more effective behavior (at least I hope more effective).
>
> Although I had a moment of slippage in there, too. So I guess I still need to work on it! :)
>
> Does this make sense? Or am I just babbling on my own planet?
>
> gg
Posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 12:03:05
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » JenStar, posted by Atticus on August 31, 2004, at 11:20:16
hi Atticus,
thanks for responding! Sometimes I do get worked up over the flame-o-posts, when I probably should take a breath and stay out of it (becuase I know I get worked up!)I supposed I feel protective of Babble, even though it's not "mine" to protect, and I bristle when people arrive here out of the blue and seem to be bent on causing trouble. Lots of others, out of empathy (as you pointed out) go out of their way to try and help, try and bring them in the fold, with often disastrous results.
I suppose that's really just a part of life, after all...but today it got to me.
Anyway, thanks for writing. By the way, your posts are worth at least a nickel too (probably way more, if you ever decide to publish some of those stories!)
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 12:13:04
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » JenStar, posted by gardenergirl on August 31, 2004, at 11:15:12
hi gg,
one more post! I did use some I-statements in the beginning...but then I got irritated and abandonded them.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040820/msgs/383702.html
I guess I'll have to try harder in the future to maintain composure here on babble...
thanks for listening!
JenStar
Posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 12:26:40
In reply to The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 9:34:33
Hmm....at the risk of I don't know what, I think I'll go ahead and be honest. I like the warm and caring support here and I'd like to see more of it IRL. People here are very kind. I like giving people the benefit of the doubt and trying to help people in pain. I see it here and try to do it IRL. I also like the concept of steppping back from a confrontational situation and trying to move it to a more neutral place and to reach out to an angry person.
However...I have limits. I'm not talking about someone who has a moment of grouchy frustration. I mean when someone is being extremely and consistently unkind and combative, or repeatedly posting things that go beyond debate into hurtful.
The civility rules are fine most of the time. But occasionally I think they hinder us. There are times (rare) when treating someone too gently allows them to walk all over us. There are times when the "I" statements just don't reflect what's happening and I'd like to be able be more direct and say "YOU are being mean. What you're doing is completely unacceptable." Not brutal, just direct. I think that would be appropriate, but I know I can't do it and I know Dr.B would disagree with me. One could say that he's taking care of that by giving out PBCs and blocks. But I still feel frustrated.
I also think that often the best options is to simply walk away and ignore the situation so that it fades away. We've all got enough stress and pain in our lives that it's in our best interests to remove ourselves form an intense situation. I really hate to see the good folks here getting flamed.
Maybe I should have put this on admin. Not sure. I tried not to be unkind in this post and hope I didn't offent anyone. (Despite reading the civility guidelines several times and having been on this board for a while, sometimes I really don't know what's Dr. Bob considers okay and what's not.)
Emme
BTW, I've never actually known what the letters PBC stand for.
Posted by zenhussy on August 31, 2004, at 12:32:50
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 12:26:40
Posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 12:48:21
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 12:26:40
I agree with you Emme - I try to carry on what I practice here IRL. It's that adage of catching more flies with honey than vinegar, you know?
What really got me was that after I'd asked to be posted to above it was not only not honoured, but crammed down my cyber-throat.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 31, 2004, at 13:03:04
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » gardenergirl, posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 11:57:08
This isn't only for Jen - it's just that there was a bit of Jen's post that made me want to say this.
I stay "civil" for my own reasons.
I don't think that in cases like these that I am being altruistic in remaining civil. To me, it's rather like my "you'll never see me cry" extended to "you'll never see me mad" which ultimately goes to "you'll never know you got to me"
Sometimes, when most upset, I could drown from holding my head up.
Occasionally, though not the purpose of behaving this way, there *are* other benefits. Like not feeling like a complete moron when it turns out I was wrong. Not that it happens often;) Or allowing the other person to save face by backing down from a non-fight.
It seems like there is an epidemic of rudeness in the world. I'm just hoping not to get sick, too.
Mel
Posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 13:17:31
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 12:26:40
hi Emme,
Emme, I don't think there was anything in your post that was uncivil or rule-breakish.
Thanks for sharing your ideas!
[warning...rant coming up! no offense intended to anyone...I just want to share my ideas in a loud way! :) ]
And about your post, I agree with you! Sometimes "I" statements just don't feel like the right thing. I understand Dr. Bob's (or any web admin's) situation: I-statements do work best 95% of the time so it's best to keep them as a guideline. And in real life, too, they DO work most of the time. But in that other 5% of the time, they feel (to me) as ineffective as a band-aid for a broken arm.
I think that we tend to handle some people with kid gloves a bit too much instead of being more blunt with them. I like your comment about wanting to confront someone head on and saying something like "you're being mean. Stop it." Sometimes people need to hear that - IRL too!
Sometimes I wonder: If we all used "I" statements ALL the time, for every altercation, could we get into big trouble? If someone is punching you and punching you in a rage, it doesn't always make sense to say politely "When I'm punched, I feel sad and bruised. I'd appreciate it if you could stop punching me and let's try a different technique."
If someone is invading your territory with tanks and soldiers, does it make sense to stand there and say carefully, "When I'm being invaded, I feel devastated and used?"
I'm not saying that all verbal abuses or posts are as serious as an invasion or a punch. That would be a silly overstatement. Remember...I usually DO like "I" statements and think that it's only 5% of the time that something different is required. But I think it's important to see the difference between usefulness and uselessness of an "I" statement.
OK. That's my rant of the day! Whew. Sometimes it's fun to rant. I hope no one was offended. Please don't take offense if you're a person who uses I-statements 100% of the time. I respect that choice and see that it gets more peacful reactions here on babble. I just wanted to share (or rant about) my outlook...
thanks for listening!
JenStar
Posted by jay on August 31, 2004, at 16:19:12
In reply to The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 9:34:33
Hemingway called it "Grace Under Pressure"...something the world is in dire, dire need of. This one goes out to all of my Brothers and Sisters marching in New York....knowing compassion, peace, and general love are the *only* alternative.Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 31, 2004, at 16:48:00
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » Emme, posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 13:17:31
> There are times (rare) when treating someone too gently allows them to walk all over us. There are times when ... I'd like to be able be more direct and say "YOU are being mean. What you're doing is completely unacceptable." ... I know I can't do it and I know Dr.B would disagree with me. One could say that he's taking care of that by giving out PBCs and blocks. But I still feel frustrated.
I do try to take care of that, but I know it can be frustrating to have to wait, or for me not to respond the way you think I should.
BTW, this was the kind of situation in which deputy administrators can really help a lot, and there are openings right now, please see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/381851.html
Bob
Posted by Atticus on August 31, 2004, at 19:41:27
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » Atticus, posted by JenStar on August 31, 2004, at 12:03:05
Hi JenStar,
I agree with you. I feel somewhat protective of this place, too. We may have been slapped with a tandem PBC (at least I was in good company ;) ), but no one ever said standing up for what you believe in came without a price, and while my syntax (and use of the unbleeped subject line, which I didn't even write) may not have been to the good doctor's liking, my opinion of the tone of the posts in question remains unchanged. What I must confess I don't understand is why the situation was allowed to spiral out of control as far as it did without Dr. B intervening earlier. I'm looking over our collective PBC and all the blocks that were slapped on people today by Dr. B on Social, and all I can say is "Sheesh! Wotta day!" :) Atticus, who better quit this board for now and cut his losses
Posted by AuntieMel on August 31, 2004, at 21:31:04
In reply to Re: The babble world, posted by Dr. Bob on August 31, 2004, at 16:48:00
This is being said in good humor, not sarcasm, Dr. Bob.
Is there anybody left to be a deputy? It seems that the blocks are hitting the fan around here (smile)
Posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 22:34:56
In reply to definition: PBC= please be civil (nm) » Emme, posted by zenhussy on August 31, 2004, at 12:32:50
I guess that was too obvious for me. :) All this while I've been thinking the PB meant Psycho Babble. So I was thinking maybe it was:
Psycho Babble Civility or
Psycho Babble Censure or
Psycho Babble something-or-other.
Posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 22:39:23
In reply to Re: The babble world, posted by Dr. Bob on August 31, 2004, at 16:48:00
Thanks for your post. I'll take a look at the link. Wonder how I'd look with a silver star...
> > There are times (rare) when treating someone too gently allows them to walk all over us. There are times when ... I'd like to be able be more direct and say "YOU are being mean. What you're doing is completely unacceptable." ... I know I can't do it and I know Dr.B would disagree with me. One could say that he's taking care of that by giving out PBCs and blocks. But I still feel frustrated.
>
> I do try to take care of that, but I know it can be frustrating to have to wait, or for me not to respond the way you think I should.
>
> BTW, this was the kind of situation in which deputy administrators can really help a lot, and there are openings right now, please see:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/381851.html
>
> Bob
Posted by Skittles on August 31, 2004, at 22:55:55
In reply to The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 9:34:33
Ok, so maybe it's goofy, but this made me think about an Alanis Morissette song I love and I thought I'd share the lyrics. Maybe some people are nicer here than we think they should be because they are striving for something like this:
Utopia
we'd gather around all in a room
fasten our belts
engage in dialoguewe'd all slow down
rest without guilt
not lie without fear
disagree sans judgementwe would stay and respond and expand and include
and allow and forgive and enjoy and evolve
and discern and inquire and accept and admit
and divulge and open and reach out and speak upThis is utopia this is my utopia
This is my ideal my end in sight
Utopia this is my utopia
This is my nirvana
My ultimatewe'd open our arms
we'd all jump in
we'd all coast down into safety netswe would share and listen and support and welcome
be propelled by passion not invest in outcomes
we would breathe and be charmed and amused by difference
be gentle and make room for every emotionwe'd provide forums
we'd all speak out
we'd all be heard
we'd all feel seenwe'd rise post-obstacle more defined more grateful
we would heal be humbled and be unstoppable
we'd hold close and let go and know when to do which
we'd release and disarm and stand up and feel safethis is utopia this is my utopia
this is my ideal my end in sight
utopia this is my utopia
this is my nirvana
my ultimate
Posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 22:59:09
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » Emme, posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 12:48:21
> I agree with you Emme - I try to carry on what I practice here IRL. It's that adage of catching more flies with honey than vinegar, you know?
>
> What really got me was that after I'd asked to be posted to above it was not only not honoured, but crammed down my cyber-throat.Yeah, I was sorry to see that. There was definitely a tidal wave of anger rolling off those posts.
I think it's worth noting that all the conflict didn't end up with any of us fighting with each other. I haven't read all of the posts in that thread, but it seems to have been everyone else vs. the one angry person. It's a nice reminder that this board is congenial and basically free of infighting.
Posted by Emme on September 1, 2004, at 0:32:49
In reply to Re: The real world vs. the uncivilised world » partlycloudy, posted by Emme on August 31, 2004, at 22:59:09
Not that it's *good* to have one person vs. a bunch of other people. Just that it's good that there's not *universal* discord or factions with lots of people being mad at lots of other people. Okay, I'll shut up now. It's late.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 1, 2004, at 1:50:46
In reply to Re: The babble world » Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on August 31, 2004, at 21:31:04
> Is there anybody left to be a deputy?
Well, I figure everyone who's still posting is a survivor... :-)
Bob
Posted by Angela2 on September 1, 2004, at 9:29:52
In reply to The real world vs. the uncivilised world, posted by partlycloudy on August 31, 2004, at 9:34:33
>If someone is rude to me and I tell them to leave me alone, that request should be honoured.
Right on!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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