![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dreamerz on February 28, 2003, at 18:34:56
Posted by beardedlady on February 28, 2003, at 19:13:12
In reply to ..I WANT YOU.!!!.MEOWS!!!MEOWS!!!, posted by dreamerz on February 28, 2003, at 18:34:56
Posted by bluedog on February 28, 2003, at 23:16:13
In reply to ..I WANT YOU.!!!.MEOWS!!!MEOWS!!!, posted by dreamerz on February 28, 2003, at 18:34:56
> http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/derren/photos/index.html
Hi Dreamy
Don't worry about the milkshake date I asked you out on. I can't compete with Derren.
I would sell my soul to the devil to be magically transformed into someone with good looks.
GRRR GRRR ....life is unfair.
love
bluedog
Posted by dreamerz on February 28, 2003, at 23:20:10
In reply to Re: ..I WANT YOU.!!!.MEOWS!!!MEOWS!!! » dreamerz, posted by bluedog on February 28, 2003, at 23:16:13
I should be in the bath..
It isn't his good looks it's the eyes-they are 'thinking' and his manner and strangeness--I watched him on tv tonight..his pics are a bit silly..
Posted by dreamerz on February 28, 2003, at 23:26:25
In reply to Re: ..I WANT YOU.!!!.MEOWS!!!MEOWS!!! » dreamerz, posted by bluedog on February 28, 2003, at 23:16:13
Bluedog...
I once had a big krush on a very old man with a big belly- bald ..it's not looks--
Posted by bluedog on February 28, 2003, at 23:41:38
In reply to Re: ..bluedog, posted by dreamerz on February 28, 2003, at 23:26:25
> Bluedog...
>
> I once had a big krush on a very old man with a big belly- bald ..it's not looks--Thanks Dreamy
I'm actually SLOWLY starting to understand this but old social anxiety habits die hard.
By the way have a look at my movie suggestion below...It WILL scare you!!!!!!
love from the ol' dog
Posted by bozeman on February 28, 2003, at 23:43:37
In reply to Re: ..I WANT YOU.!!!.MEOWS!!!MEOWS!!! » dreamerz, posted by bluedog on February 28, 2003, at 23:16:13
Hi Dreamy
Don't worry about the milkshake date I asked you out on. I can't compete with Derren.
I would sell my soul to the devil to be magically transformed into someone with good looks.
GRRR GRRR ....life is unfair.
love
bluedog
_____________________________________Bluedog, dear --
Bet dreamerz will have a milkshake with you anyway, 'cuz you're so sweet. ;-)
Don't even SAY that!
OF COURSE IT IS!!!! If it weren't, WE'D be running the world, instead of the (be civil now, boze) "nice, simple, boring" people that are running it.
And BTW, the sexiest men I have ever known were always at least a little overweight, (sometimes more than a little :-) and often bald or balding. Sexy is what comes OUT of a person, oozes out of every pore of them, twinkles out of their eyes and in the velvet of their voice -- not something that gets randomly poured on you at birth, like skin that tans evenly, or a square jawline.
Personally, I am quite *bored* with swimsuit-model-type men who are more interested in how their hair looks than paying attention to me, witty and charming as I am. :-) I would much rather go for a walk with a man I find intellectually interesting and emotionally appealing, than go to dinner and dancing with a "stud-muffin" who can't make decent conversation, or doesn't care to.
But I digress!! When are you having coffee/tea/milkshake/whatever with Yoga Girl? <chuckle>
I have no idea what you look like, but anybody who grows sweet retrievers and a garden is OK by me. <wink>
bozeman
Posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
In reply to Handsome » bluedog, posted by bozeman on February 28, 2003, at 23:43:37
> Hi Dreamy
>
> Don't worry about the milkshake date I asked you out on. I can't compete with Derren.
>
> I would sell my soul to the devil to be magically transformed into someone with good looks.
>
> GRRR GRRR ....life is unfair.
>
> love
> bluedog
> _____________________________________
>
> Bluedog, dear --
>
> Bet dreamerz will have a milkshake with you anyway, 'cuz you're so sweet. ;-)
>
> Don't even SAY that!
>
> OF COURSE IT IS!!!! If it weren't, WE'D be running the world, instead of the (be civil now, boze) "nice, simple, boring" people that are running it.
>
> And BTW, the sexiest men I have ever known were always at least a little overweight, (sometimes more than a little :-) and often bald or balding. Sexy is what comes OUT of a person, oozes out of every pore of them, twinkles out of their eyes and in the velvet of their voice -- not something that gets randomly poured on you at birth, like skin that tans evenly, or a square jawline.
>
> Personally, I am quite *bored* with swimsuit-model-type men who are more interested in how their hair looks than paying attention to me, witty and charming as I am. :-) I would much rather go for a walk with a man I find intellectually interesting and emotionally appealing, than go to dinner and dancing with a "stud-muffin" who can't make decent conversation, or doesn't care to.
>
> But I digress!! When are you having coffee/tea/milkshake/whatever with Yoga Girl? <chuckle>
>
> I have no idea what you look like, but anybody who grows sweet retrievers and a garden is OK by me. <wink>
>
> bozeman
>What IS it that attracts a girl to a guy?????
Actually come to think of it Jack Nicholson is not particularly handsome in the traditional sense and women seem to adore him. Do you think women would still have liked him even if he wasn't a rich and famous movie star?
Do you think charisma and a sparkle in the eye are more important than looks?
PLease be BRUTALLY honest here. This is something I've been pondering over for years and have never really had the opportunity to fully and honestly discuss with anyone. Anyone I ask has simply been too nice to want to hurt my feelings with the truth. And I want to know the TRUTH.
And as for therapists whenever I ask them, they always pussyfoot around the topic. They are too afraid to be brutally honest or to even be a little bit honest with there patients (at least the ones I've dealt with)
First a bit of background about me. I suffer from social anxiety as my primary diagnosis. I have a brother who has never had to try with women. I mean he's had extremely attractive girls approach him at Pubs and Clubs and practically try to drag him into bed without even having had a decent conversation with him. Yet no matter how hard I try these same girls never even seem to notice me. This has confused and confounded me me all my life.
Really looking forward to any comments.
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by IsoM on March 1, 2003, at 1:10:13
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
Being brutally honest, bluedog, I've seen you & you're not a bad looking guy at all. AND you're not overweight in the least. Your problem is shyness & lack of confidence. Over-confidence in a guy is a real turn-off but a *little* "swagger" helps, just as long as it's playful & not ego.
Believe me - when a woman gets old enough to know a good guy (& she doesn't have to be old - some know what makes a guy good, in their late teens even), she'll pick charisma, a twinkle in the eye, & a sparkling wit any day! And don't think women don't appreciate a gentleman - they do.
Posted by Tabitha on March 1, 2003, at 3:11:22
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
I want you, bluedog. I only pretend to be supportive of that yoga girl thing. Heck with her I say!
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 3:26:22
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
Well, of course handsome is in the eye of the beholder. Crinkly eyes, a largish nose, and nice long fingers are handsome to me, and they don't always come with other great features.
But if I can recall waaaay back in the days when I was looking... ;)
It was smart and funny every time. I had a professor who would really be on the ugly side if you froze him somehow and just took him feature by feature. He didn't even have crinkly eyes, a largish nose, or long fingers. But he was smart and funny and confident with himself, and he was just irresistable. To me at least, and to many others as I recall.
My husband has grown into a very good looking man now by any standards, while my looks have sadly declined. But when I decided to hunt him down like a gazelle to my cheetah, he wasn't at the peak of his looks. He always did have crinkly eyes and longish fingers. But he was smart and funny in a way that I thought meant that he would be able to not take himself too seriously. He wasn't particularly self confident, especially with women. But he was a decent, kind person. I never heard him join in the typical high school teasing of the class target. Smart, funny, and kind were all that I ever wanted.
I got him because it was at a time of my life when I wasn't quite myself. I was way bolder than usual, and had the confidence to go after him. He found that flattering, and enjoyed it enough to fall in love.
Is it possible that the type of woman who finds you attractive is a bit too shy to be as bold as I was? Maybe you need to be open to the possibilities a bit more and read the more subtle signs. In my less outgoing moods, I signalled my appreciation of a guy by avoiding him completely. :)
But in my circle of friends, the best looking people usually chose rather plain mates despite the interest from other great looking people. Obviously there is more going on with mating than just the display of plumage. (Although of course it doesn't hurt to be great looking - in any part of life. Didn't they do studies with beautiful people and trials and job opportunities?) And the biggest love story I know of was my grandparents. My grandma was never beautiful, but you'd never know it when you caught my grandpa looking at her. What he saw was the most beautiful woman alive.
So bluedog, you are funny and smart and kind. And there are women who find those qualities devastatingly attractive. But maybe they're not the same sort who find your brother attractive, and maybe the signals aren't as obvious.
But you know, bluedog. You hold the answer to your question. Do you only find extremely attractive women worth dating? Are you attracted to women who have other great qualities and then find their looks appealing because they are them. If you love someone, they start looking way more beautiful or handsome.
Do you think having a brother like that had anything to do with your social anxiety?
By the way, I haven't been looking for over twenty years now, so what I say may be total garbage. But I offer it for what it's worth.
Posted by bozeman on March 1, 2003, at 3:41:25
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
> What IS it that attracts a girl to a guy?????
>
____________________________________I wish it were a simple answer. But if it were, you probably wouldn't be asking the question, right? :-)
____________________________________
>
> Actually come to think of it Jack Nicholson is not particularly handsome in the traditional sense and women seem to adore him. Do you think women would still have liked him even if he wasn't a rich and famous movie star?
>
____________________________________You're right, he's not. But he radiates a "confidence/cockiness" that some women find irresistible. If he had that same air about him, many women would definitely still find him attractive, even without the rich and famous part. Then again, some are interested *only* in the rich and famous part, and wouldn't be caught dead with him if he weren't. Some women will think he needs a nurturing "home base" of a gentle, supportive partner to balance his cutthroat, fast-paced world of entertainment, and that they can give that to him. Some women really do find "bad boys" exciting. Some women try to save and "reform" bad boys. And, somewhere, there are probably women who would like him just the way he is, for who he is, think he's plenty attractive, and wouldn't even know he's an actor.
I admit that, in the ignorance of my youth, I also found that particular "cocky attitude" attractive. But as I've "matured", my tastes have changed. I have found that men of that "cocky" type often want a woman to worship and look up to them -- and others want one to argue and quarrel with them, as they enjoy the adrenaline of the fight, and the safety of knowing they can make up afterward. I don't do well in either scenario for long, so that type of man no longer appeals to me.
Some women (and men, for that matter) seem to define their self-worth by the characteristics of the mate they attract. I find this very sad, as 1) the characteristics they seem to value most are temporary and fleeting as outward beauty, which ultimately fades for all of us, and 2) that people think so little of themselves that they define their success by outward status symbols in the first place, whether a "trophy mate'", a certain automobile, or whatever.
____________________________________
>
> Do you think charisma and a sparkle in the eye are more important than looks?
>
____________________________________Do I think so? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Charisma, sparkle in the eye, gentle touch, expressive voice -- What good would looks even be, without these things? (But not all women will agree.)
The greatest percentage of humans, by far, are average-looking, in a purely visual sense. A small percentage are really, exceptionally well proportioned/attractive/ (pick your favorite adjective here), and a small percentage are at the opposite spectrum, with an imbalance of proportion or features that most would not find visually appealing. In my book, the "attractiveness" of the vast majority of us in the "middle" ground consists more of who we are than how we look. (I am thinking at least 80 percent, and perhaps as much as 95 percent, of people are in this middle category)
How this has manifested in my life is that the first impression (visual) is almost always supplanted later by my overall impression formed after I get to know the person (that is, unless there's a very close match between who they are *inside* and who they are *outside*.) Someone who, at first glance, seemed to be a real "knockout", I scarcely notice later, once I spend enough time around him to find out he's a self-involved, shallow, insensitive rube who expects women to fall all over him and treats them with no courtesy or respect. He literally becomes less attractive to me, visually, because my *knowing* him, who he is, repulses me so much that it affects how I see him. I'll look at him later and think, "Well, he's not all that, I wonder why he thinks he is?" when my visual-only impression initially agreed with his self-assessment.
Conversely, an "average-looking" man will, over time, become most attractive to me, once I know him well enough to appreciate his depth, humor, sensitivity, gentleness, strength, intelligence, loyalty, etc. My respect for his character and trust in his behavior will overshadow my "first impression" of his physical appearance, and later it will never cross my mind that he might not be *the* most attractive man on earth, because, to me, he is. Because I've grown to appreciate who he is, not just what he looks like, which is all you have to go on in the first split-second you see someone. This is why, if I ever do feel that "Wow, what a hunk!" feeling, my impulse is actually to run like hell, because it almost always results in great disappointment later, when I know who he really is, even if I'm not romantically interested in the man, and have no interest in being so involved.
____________________________________
>
> PLease be BRUTALLY honest here. This is something I've been pondering over for years and have never really had the opportunity to fully and honestly discuss with anyone. Anyone I ask has simply been too nice to want to hurt my feelings with the truth. And I want to know the TRUTH.
>
____________________________________I have always been puzzled by this. Even though I would not intentionally hurt you, and given that one should be tactful (and often gentle) even when being direct, how can the "truth" hurt anyone's feelings? Isn't it when we place conditions and expectations for a particular answer, and don't get it, that we experience disappointment? It is seldom the truthfulness (or lack of) in the answer itself . . .
____________________________________
>
> And as for therapists whenever I ask them, they always pussyfoot around the topic. They are too afraid to be brutally honest or to even be a little bit honest with there patients (at least the ones I've dealt with)
>
____________________________________One of the "gifts" of ADD for me has been learning to think on "multiple tracks" at once (once you figure out how to do it without losing all of them.) So, in a way, I've done as much thinking in my life as four or five people. In my experience, most people just don't think about these kinds of things -- they are REactive to events in their lives, instead of being PROactive and choosing the path they want. Being who I am has made relationships easy to create, but somewhat difficult to sustain. This has given me much opportunity to ponder the hows and whys of how people couple and uncouple, which perhaps even some therapists have not explored as fully in their own minds. I don't think that textbook notations and real-life understanding translate the same way into explaining life-experiences in a way that will benefit either a client, or a friend.
____________________________________
>
> First a bit of background about me. I suffer from social anxiety as my primary diagnosis. I have a brother who has never had to try with women. I mean he's had extremely attractive girls approach him at Pubs and Clubs and practically try to drag him into bed without even having had a decent conversation with him. Yet no matter how hard I try these same girls never even seem to notice me. This has confused and confounded me me all my life.
>
____________________________________Paradoxically, many girls (and guys, for that matter) seem oblivious to both reality and sensibility when they are "on the hunt." The girls you speak of most likely chase after your brother *because* he doesn't try to get their attention -- at least, not directly. Nothing will make a girl (or guy) of that type more interested in capturing your attention, than the combination of aloof disinterest and smooth self-confidence (that Jack Nicholson cockiness thing again.) I'll bet your brother is at ease around these women, not necessarily the life of the party (though that could work in this scenario), and he does not show any outward signs of social anxiety (even if he were to feel it.) It's the old "let them chase you until you catch them" thing, and it works irresistibly on a certain type of person, usually the younger, more immature, and more insecure types (of all ages and both genders. :-)
Even more maddeningly, it doesn't matter *why* your brother is not chasing after these girls -- because they simply don't interest him, aren't his type, he's too shy to approach them, even if he's gay, or just married and loyal to his wife -- the fact that he appears secure, somewhat available, non-threatening, and just disinterested enough, will drive that type of girl into a seductive frenzy, trying to beat out all the other girls who would do the same. It's pure jungle biology, not some mysterious secret appeal. She wants to get him before the next girl does. I know it doesn't make sense, logically, but we're not talking about logic, are we?
A girl of this type is actually turned off by a man who approaches her honestly, with respect and dignity, and tries to get to know her. It's not a rejection of him personally, it's that the two are "playing different games, with different rules", and the two don't mix. She's playing the "dating" game (short term goal = conquest tonight), he's playing the "mating" game (longer term goal = seeing her again after tonight.) I'm not saying that all she's interested in is sex, though for some women this is definitely true. I'm saying she's caught in a game of power and control, of defining herself by her "conquests", whether they end up being sexual encounters or not. If she dominates his attention for the entire evening then she "won" her affirmation points for the day. For a girl of this type, a man who is "harder to get" is "worth more points" than one who is easily approachable, or who approaches her.
Again, we're not talking about logic, and we're probably not talking about anybody you'd actually be interested in once you got to know them. I'm just trying to explain to you why a perfectly wonderful, attractive, "nice" guy can get shunned repeatedly by women in certain situations. Unfortunately, being shunned by even one woman can chip away at your self confidence, making the likelihood of getting shunned by the next even higher (these girls can smell fear a mile away, and the smell of blood in the water makes them crazy.)
All the same can be applied in reverse to men as well, by the way. Men are often put off by a woman who seems too easily approachable, like it wasn't "hard" enough of a battle to be worth much to win her attention. Ridiculous, I know, but it's jungle stuff, again, not logic.
So it's not that you are unappealing to women. It's that having any degree of social anxiety, which you do, makes you not the type of man who will appeal to the type of women who tend to "hunt" at clubs and pubs. You have a much greater chance of meeting someone who will notice and talk to you, and share your interests and want to spend time with you, at the library, volunteering at a local animal shelter, or in a yoga class (legitimate common interests -- you can't beat it for an ice-breaker. :-)
As you can see, I ponder this stuff at great length. (Experience is a great teacher, and I have my share of failure experiences to draw upon. :-) But it's very late here and I must get to sleep. We'll chat more after you have a chance to digest this part.
____________________________________
>
> Really looking forward to any comments.
>
> warm regards
> bluedog
>
____________________________________Never ask me a question unless you actually want an answer! <chuckle> Because if I don't have one, I may set two or three of those multiple mind-tracks working on it and find one!
So, as direct as I can be: Is tall and broad-shouldered a good thing? Yes, especially to a tall woman, it is good -- but not necessarily required. Is "handsome" a requirement? No, and it's often it's a detriment (at least, in my book.) Does personality matter more than looks? You bet it does! But someone who's neurotically insecure about their looks, either way, won't work either. The *most* attractive people are unconscious of their appeal. If you're going to be physically attractive, you have to act like you don't know that you are, but be absolutely secure and comfortable with who you are. That's the key, as I see and experience it.
Warm regards back at you, bluedog
And a warm hug too.Going to bed now -- while you're experiencing that gorgeous sunny day . . . talk to you again soon.
bozeman
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 1, 2003, at 7:03:46
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
For meit, is alot of whatis on the inside.. I rarely fall for someone on looks, but there has to chemistry.. and that is alot on how ur personalities match... I met my husband on line in a chat room.. we talked and talked and talked before we ever met, and I was totally in love with him before I even knew what he looked like!! I also happen think he is pretty damned gorgeous though ;)
At the end of the day, I put it all down to chemistry... someone doesn't have to be gorgeous to give you that wow factor.. its what makes them a person that causes that!!
Nikki xx
Posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 9:00:44
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bluedog, posted by NikkiT2 on March 1, 2003, at 7:03:46
Not same for girlies most though men go for looks.
Posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 9:15:31
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH?, posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 9:00:44
Also I have someone trying hard to get me through his personality..but I don't find him attractive--so I guess it is important or there's no chemistry--I'd like friendship but tis not possible without him thinking to explore my panties : -)
Posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 9:55:26
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH?, posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 9:15:31
Thankyou all for your responses.
I'm going to bed now to catch some sleep and to process all that info that you guys gave me in my dreams tonight. Maybe Dreamer's Elves will pay me a visit tonight and whisper the answers to the mysteries of life into my ear as I lay in a deep and restful slumber.
I'll respond with my thoughts in detail tomorrow when I'm fresh....but I've GOT to say one thing. I do do not go for the supermodel types..can't explain why. A girl merely has to be attractive to ME. I've found girls attractive that some of my male friends wouldn't even bother giving a second glance at. There's definitely got to be a certain chemistry present which is unexplainable. Unfortunately the chemistry always seems to come from my side only and is never reciprocated. Either that or I'm completely incompetent at reading the signals due to being paralysed with my fear of rejection.
Maybe as Iso says I've simply got to develop more "swagger' and confidence. I know that social anxiety and major depression is not a great turn on for any girl. The weird thing is that depressed girls can still seem to attract guys. Why is that? Dreamer.....how is it that despite your problems you still seem to attract guys (please don't take this the wrong way...I hope you realise what I'm getting at) Are you really good looking or something?
Probably just one of the mysteries of life really:) :).
warm regards and till tomorrow
sweet dreams
bluedog
Posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 12:52:46
In reply to Re: Wow. I have a lot of onfo here to digest!!!, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 9:55:26
Why is that? Dreamer.....how is it that despite your problems you still seem to attract guys (please don't take this the wrong way...I hope you realise what I'm getting at) Are you really good looking or something?
You cheeky monkey :-)I ain't so bad looking mmmmeow--my eyes are yummy...its my playfulness I guess--I seem to understand men more than girlies--always comfortable in there prescence..I seem to make them smile--but not all the time--I dissapear a lot on my own.--that's the problem.
Hey I'm 5ft 7 slim with perky breasts--and look in my early 20's when I'm feeling well...so hey come and get it ~lol!!!
Posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 12:56:08
In reply to Re: Wow. I have a lot of onfo here to digest!!! » bluedog, posted by dreamerz on March 1, 2003, at 12:52:46
I'm hornieeee
Posted by bookgurl99 on March 4, 2003, at 22:17:10
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH? » bozeman, posted by bluedog on March 1, 2003, at 0:03:34
You know, bluedog, some of us just have trouble believing we're attractive when we are. I know some guys with bad teeth and scraggly hair -- wait, did I just describe half of Australia? -- who are popular due to their innate self-confidence (hard to have when you've been raised by the wrong sort of parents, I know), and who are terribly amusing.
It's true that looks plays a part in attraction, but sometimes you need to be willing to accept that someone likes you, and be open to the signals. (This does _not_ mean you oughtta give back rubs to girls you just met -- very creepy!)
Most of us just want to be with someone who looks decent, has things in common with us, and is good to us. So maybe you oughta brush off those glasses that tell you you're a loser and start noticing the girls that check you out. :D
books
p.s. i am a huge nerd. young lesbians in town flee when they see me because being seen talking to the eccentric with tics would mean been 'uncool.' it was a miracle that i met a decent, kind-hearted, beautiful woman who loves me -- and is actually also a young lesbian. but it can happen to you too!
Posted by bluedog on March 5, 2003, at 4:41:29
In reply to Re: Handsome, looks, personality or BOTH?, posted by bookgurl99 on March 4, 2003, at 22:17:10
Thanks booky
Can I start calling you nerdgurl99 and you can then either call me nerddog or bluenerd :) :)
I think I MUST belong to at least half of the Australian population.....but WHICH half do I belong to?
In Australia those who have nerdy tendencies (basically 99% of the population as far as I can tell) but also happen to be just average people like to call themselves "Dags". It is almost like a badge of honour. I've seen interviews with some of the so called "Beautiful People" who really are just Dags and are not afraid to admit this at all. Life is not at all like a Calvin Klein ad in the latest issue of "Vogue".
Does this word "Dag" have a similar meaning in other parts of the world????
Thanks again booky....your one of those on this board that has a true knack for making me feel better about myself :)
love and more kisses on your cheek
bluedog
This is the end of the thread.
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