![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by conundrum on March 23, 2010, at 1:06:01
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed, posted by Zyprexa on March 22, 2010, at 21:09:02
Nothing in the bill prevents insurance companies from ripping us off. In fact premiums will probably rise for most people. If they try to deny someone with a pre existiing condition they will pay a $100 dollar fine per day. Compare that to a 100,000 hospital bill.
Posted by conundrum on March 23, 2010, at 1:06:01
In reply to explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue (nm), posted by manic666 on March 22, 2010, at 9:24:58
In the United States we have a Bill of Rights to our constitution which provides certain rights to the states in the 10th amendment. This bill could be determined to be encroaching in states rights. It would be like the EU regulating health for all EU member states. The states of the U.S. are supposed to be much more autonomous than say the federal states of Germany.
Also the government is going to force people to buy healthcare. It really doesn't matter what you do in Europe. Its sounds pretty much unconstitutional and if we can just go against the law of land then we can just do whatever we want. The only thing I can think of similar is that the states require us to purchase car insurance. But thats the states not the federal government. I have a feeling some of the things in this bill will be found unconstitutional. Not to say that they are bad ideas, but they might contradict the current law of the land.
Posted by SLS on March 23, 2010, at 1:06:01
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue » manic666, posted by conundrum on March 22, 2010, at 22:26:26
> In the United States we have a Bill of Rights to our constitution which provides certain rights to the states in the 10th amendment.
I am not a student of the law, but this is the wording of the 10th amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
There is no provisioning of specific rights to the states in this amendment. I believe that it was the Federalists who helped to craft its wording so that it be ambiguous as to what powers were "delegated" to the federal government. They fought, and one, to exclude the word "expressly" so as to allow great latitude in the definition of federal powers. The 10th amendment has actually allowed for the expansion of the roles of the federal government based upon the purposeful ambiguity. The wording serves to suggest that the federal government has implied powers. For the most part, the US Supreme Court has affirmed that implied powers exist, and that they need not be expressly detailed in the US Constitution. However, the court does, at times, deem some laws unconstitutional so as to limit the reach of implied powers.
It will be interesting to see how long is the reach that the US Supreme Court allows the federal government in its implementation of the health care bill should it ultimately become law.
- Scott
Posted by manic666 on March 23, 2010, at 4:57:43
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue, posted by SLS on March 23, 2010, at 1:06:01
why dont you guys fly over to england an get it free //every one else does,///with the eu ,you c
get an english passport,// so if your in any eu connty an come her on the back of a truck with a false passport or on a plane with a real one.// you can have a heart bypass on me //i payed thousands of pounds in nhs subs an they pay sh*t . well they start to pay if they have a job but they go straight on benifits,//we now have TB back in the country an STD, is though the roof, an no docs or dentists,// oooooo we have polish docs who need interprters, //an dentist who are sadists,//phillipa i thought you had a e bay buisness how come you dont pay tax, mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Posted by sdb on March 23, 2010, at 12:57:14
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue, posted by manic666 on March 23, 2010, at 4:57:43
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2010, at 19:15:41
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue, posted by manic666 on March 23, 2010, at 4:57:43
Manic I feel you could be confusing paying taxes and being provided free insurance. It's the insurance private I no longer receive. I pay taxes on the tiny income I receive from medicaire Disability and also as a family we pay federal, and state, county, city, and sales tax on our business Disability is also taxed and pay co-pays for all medical and meds and can be extremely expensive. My husband buys for himself private insurance. Me all I have is Disability. Can't afford to add me to a private policy as preexisting conditions make it too expensive plus my age. Is this a bit clearer? Lots of threads on Facebook also on this topic. A lot of angry people are the ones I've got on my page and friends pages. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2010, at 20:36:12
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue » manic666, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2010, at 19:15:41
From Reuters Health Information
U.S. States Launch Lawsuits Against Healthcare Bill.March 22 - Less than 24 hours after the U.S. House of Representatives gave final approval to a sweeping overhaul of healthcare, attorneys general from several states on Monday said they will sue to block the plan on constitutional grounds.Republican attorneys general in 11 states warned that lawsuits will be filed to stop the federal government overstepping its constitutional powers and usurping states' sovereignty.
States are concerned the burden of providing healthcare will fall on them without enough federal support.
Ten of the attorneys general plan to band together in a collective lawsuit on behalf of Alabama, Florida, Nebraska, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah and Washington.
"To protect all Texans' constitutional rights, preserve the constitutional framework intended by our nation's founders, and defend our state from further infringement by the federal government, the State of Texas and other states will legally challenge the federal health care legislation," said Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, in a statement.
The Republican attorney generals say the reforms infringe on state powers under the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights.
Virginia Attorney General Kenneth Cuccinelli, who plans to file a lawsuit in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, said Congress lacks authority under its constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce to force people to buy insurance. The bill also conflicts with a state law that says Virginians cannot be required to buy insurance, he added.
"If a person decides not to buy health insurance, that person by definition is not engaging in commerce," Cuccinelli said in recorded comments. "If you are not engaging in commerce, how can the federal government regulate you?"
In addition to the pending lawsuits, bills and resolutions have been introduced in at least 36 state legislatures seeking to limit or oppose various aspects of the reform plan through laws or state constitutional amendments, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL).
So far, only two states, Idaho and Virginia, have enacted laws, while an Arizona constitutional amendment is seeking voter approval on the November ballot. But the actual enactment of the bill by President Barack Obama could spur more movement on the measures by state lawmakers.
As is the case on the Congressional level, partisan politics is in play on the state level, where no anti-health care reform legislation has emerged in Democrat-dominated states like Illinois and New York, according to the NCSL.
Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum, a Republican candidate running for governor, said the mandate would cost Florida at least $1.6 billion in Medicaid alone.
All states would receive extra funding to cover Medicaid costs that are expected to rise under the reform, including 100% federal coverage for new enrollees under the plan through 2016.
Posted by manic666 on March 24, 2010, at 5:01:03
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue » manic666, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2010, at 19:15:41
in england if you finish work through ill health. youn get means tested, if you have more than a set amount in the bank .//you vertualy get nothing you have to spend you own money in your savings,// when that is down to a sh*t level you get means tested again an your payment may be increast,// but your husbands money is also taken into acount,//you are married an that means he a provider so if he earns money you may get nothing// if he dont work you get benifit as man an wife//an if you are court earning any kind of money with out declaring it you are fined an your benifits stopped , benifit fraud is big in england people claiming benifit an earning there own money as well//every other advert on tv warns you of jail for benifit fraud,if you get our sytem you will get our rules //that why you president has spent many hours talking with our health care an benifit system
Posted by Willful on March 24, 2010, at 10:09:17
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue » manic666, posted by conundrum on March 23, 2010, at 1:06:01
Actuallly, there's a long history of interpreting the constitution to mean that the federal government has priority over state governments in all sorts of matters.
Here's a concise statement of the issues, from a liberal blog, but one that strives for clarity and straightforwardness. It seems to me to set out the issues well.
It reads, as follows:"In recent media appearances, the AGs -- the most high-profile of whom have been Ken Cuccinelli of Virginia, Bill McCollum of Florida, and Henry McMaster of South Carolina -- have made a grab-bag of claims, among them that the bill violates state sovereignty. That's a contention that no court is likely to have much time for. As Steve Schwinn, an associate law professor at John Marshall Law School has written, state laws that aim to override the federal mandate "are almost surely unconstitutional, as conflicting directly with the federal requirement."
The stronger argument in the arsenal of the AGs -- many of whom happen to be running for governor -- relates to the Commerce Clause, the section of the Constitution that empowers Congress to regulate interstate commerce. The AGs focus on the provision of the bill that requires almost all Americans to obtain health insurance. They argue that imposing a penalty on people merely for declining to buy insurance is outside the scope of Congress's power under the Commerce Clause."
The issue with the Commerce Clause is that it purports to allow the federal government to regulate "activity" among the states-- whereas some conservative scholars are trying to argue that not buying insurance (ie refusing to adhere to the mandate) is "inactivity" and thus not covered by the Commerce Clause. However, this argument would be considered to overturn a great deal of legal history, including Supreme Court ruling.
The article on this point reads as follows:
"Randy Barnett, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown Law School, agrees. "The individual mandate extends the commerce clause's power beyond economic activity, to economic inactivity. That is unprecedented," he wrote in a Washington Post op-ed that appeared this weekend. "Regulating the auto industry or paying "cash for clunkers" is one thing; making everyone buy a Chevy is quite another.""
An argument that rebuts this contention is as follows (also from the same blog posting):"Jack Balkin, a constitutional law professor at Yale Law School, extends that argument [against Barnett's point]. In a recent blog post, he notes that in the Raich case, Justice Scalia found that Congress can use the Commerce Clause to regulate, as Balkin put it, "even non-economic activities if it believes that this is necessary to make its regulation of interstate commerce effective"...). People who don't buy health insurance, Balkin argues, aren't simply "doing nothing," as Rivkin, Barnett et al. claim. These people pass on their health-care costs by going to the emergency room, or buying over-the-counter cures. "All these activities are economic, and they have a cumulative effect on interstate commerce," writes Balkin."
Hence the blog concludes that it would be an extraordinary stretch for the Supreme Court-- or any court-- to overturn the Health Care Reform Act.
I personally think it's a great step forwrard for our country and long overdue.
Willful
Posted by Willful on March 24, 2010, at 19:26:02
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
Hi. Could you cite where you found the information about the size of the penalty insurance companies would pay if they denied coverage to people with pre-existing conditions?
thanks,
Willful
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2010, at 22:24:12
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed » conundrum, posted by Willful on March 24, 2010, at 19:26:02
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2010, at 22:32:11
In reply to Re: explain to me why its a bummer i havent got a clue, posted by manic666 on March 24, 2010, at 5:01:03
Manic I feel our government is set up a bit differently from England. In England you have a Queen here we has a President but he must consult and go through Congress and all sorts of legal things first. This is not over yet either. But That's another subject. As to your question here you are allowed to earn a set amount of income even on Disability or Mediciare for elderly don't think there is a cap? Please someone with more knowledge correct if wrong on that one. Also marrieds can file either jointly or single status on income tax. Some people incorportate their business so it's a separate entity from their personal assets. So then there is separate business. Very complicated. But I think your're talking more in the line of medicaid and medicaid fraud. Those that have nothing claimed and if found out did surely that would be a penalty of some sort. Medicaire is a bit different. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2010, at 22:51:46
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed » conundrum, posted by Willful on March 24, 2010, at 19:26:02
Willful hoping this link works if not sorry as it answers your questions of penalties if don't buy health insurance and goes up yearly. But these changes are not til 2013 or 2014. Soursce a newsletter and if name doesn't appear I will have to post it but this is my third post. Phillipa well will give it a go.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/19/interactive.health.care.benefits/index.html?hpt=Sbin
Posted by manic666 on March 25, 2010, at 4:43:13
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed » Willful, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2010, at 22:51:46
the queen, has nothing to do with the goverment,//we have a priminister like you have a president.// goverment parties we the people vote in// they set the rules//we have just had a buget were we get told what price things are like vat tax disabilaty payments.// an they are putting up the national insurence tax level//that a set amout of money that comes out your wages every week to pay your heath care.//the more you earn the more you pay.//thats how the nhs is run//we pay for it ,nobody else. but its free to every one who is has british passport// so imigrants get the same deal for nothing ,so there putting up the rate we pay to support someone who has payed nothing.///the queen jesus she is are ambasidor an tourist atraction ,who travals the would to show people what real royalty is.remember all are armed forces are royal. ie royal navy ,royal air force royal army,that why we are proud of are heritige, whitch is being iroaded by the eu// a vote our parliment sneaked in low key, so the voters were railroaded does that sound familure
Posted by bleauberry on March 25, 2010, at 20:45:12
In reply to New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2010, at 1:05:59
Opinions follow. Strong. Be it known they are shared by a significant majority of americans.
This is a disasterous bill.
If I told you that many other countries have a program that sounds great on paper but in reality works poorly for the patients it was intended to help, you would want to try that right? Nowhere in the world has socialized medicine worked. Ever. Period.
We have the best health profession on the planet. That is due to the side effects of free enterprise and minimum government intervention. With government takeover, say bye bye to that.
You and your doctor will no longer be the ones who decide. A panel of white coats in washington will tell you what you can and cannot do, not your doctor and not you. Do you honestly think they are going to let you try that exotic combo you want, or the maoi you want, or brand instead of generic? Funny. Good luck. No, you will be restricted to the protocols their white coat teams deem to be your fate, based on percentage statistics, not individual response, flawed science, and primarily cost. The cheaper the better, doesn't matter if it's good for you or not.
People think this is free. Ha. Everyone is required to pay a premium whether you want it or not. If you don't, you pay a fine. If you don't, guess who comes looking for you. The IRS, which is hiring 10,000 new agents as we speak to do just that. Sounds like a third world dictatorship more than the USA I love.
Forget all the ugly details for a minute. Our government officials are elected to represent the will of the people who elected them. Every single poll shows americans are very much against this particular health care bill. The congressmen that voted for it knew that. They didn't care. They did it for their own power, not for you. They ignored the very people who elected them. They will pay a stiff price at election time. I hope they are updating their resumes. Tidal wave coming.
We really need health care improvement. Not a complete government takeover. Everyone including those that despise this bill know that we need things done. It's just that this bill does none of the things that need to be done, and instead turns over the best health care system in the world to a model that has failed every time it is tried.
Find a way to help those too poor, and leave everyone else alone. I happen to be happy with my health plan. I am pissed the government is screwing with it.
I feel badly for my children. They will grow up to a country much worse than I.
When was the last time any government program came in costing the same or less than predicted? Never. So when you see them lying all over TV saying how it will cost this or that, just know they are in fact calling you stupid. If any other goverment program is any indication, this one will cost minimum 4 times what is predicted.
They can't even effectively run a much smaller simpler program like Medicare, but think they can handle a monstrosity? What arrogance. Stupidity on display for all to see.
Insurance rates are going up real fast for several reasons. The biggest is this. Millions of people have lost their jobs and are now unable to keep insurance. The result is fewer people are paying the premiums. If you were the insurance company, and you lost a bunch of customers, you would likewise have no choice to but to charge more to your remaining customers.
The fault of that is too much government regulation and taxes too high.
The Reagan years. Here a guy hated by liberals took taxes on the rich down from 70% to 30%. In doing so, he created 350 million....yeah, million...new jobs. Sounds pretty good about now, yeah? That's a lot of people to pay premiums and get costs down. A side benefit was that the tax revenue flowing to washington didn't shrink as liberals predicted, but instead doubled. Imagine that, lower taxes and make more money. Well, anyone with an elementary level of math and economics knows why that is. Our current government does just the opposite. Everything they do stifles growth of anything except themselves.
People can get way too much money from medical lawsuits for damages that weren't worth that much money. False claims. Greed. One third of the money you pay your doctor goes to his malpractice insurance. That's a major reason healthcare is so expensive. Tort reform is needed to bring costs down.
Competition always brings costs down. But people can't shop around. Can't shop state to state or take your insurance with you. There needs to be competition with no boundaries. That does not exist right now.
This healtcare bill actually had nothing to do with healthcare. It had to do with a far leftist ideologue who hates many things about america, someone who is a great lier and charming, whos intention is to get as many people dependent on government as possible. He sees the great history and freedom of USA as a crime, not a God given blessing.
When it comes right down to it, the best health care we can all do is right at home. Water filters. Heavy on organic veggies and fruits. Organic meats. Exercise. Low sugars. If you can't pronounce and ingredient label or know what it is, don't eat it for pete's sake. It's no wonder americans get such heavy health problems despite the best health care system in the world.
Which it is not any longer.
The whole thing is unconstitutional and I am sure it will be challenged. Already is actually, by many states and individuals. The constitution has no place for allowing the government to require citizens to buy any particular product or service. This is the USA after all.
Anyone who likes this healthcare bill doesn't know what is in it, doesn't know history, doesn't know economics, and is basically going purely on emotion. Obviously the phrase "health care for everyone" sounds beautiful and wonderful. That is an emotional response completely out of touch with the reality of this particular bill.
Posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2010, at 23:31:22
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by bleauberry on March 25, 2010, at 20:45:12
well i am a (former) law student, and i can say this bill is totally constitutional. at least under current law, though foaming-at-the-mouth teabaggers and the politicians wanting their votes might say otherwise.
i doubt Roberts and his crew will invalidate it, not because they are particularly disinclined to keep current law where it is (not that i think that is bad, in the abstract), but because this is the most conservative possible option that get to (almost) universal care and cost control. The very much more obviously constitutional option, medicare for all, would be what we'd get instead.
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
http://www.thegeekreport.net/reports/toptens/reports/photos/TTFights/TTStarWars.png
http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/09/Barack-Obama-Light-Saber.jpg
notice is the blue vs. red motif!
-d/r
Posted by sdb on March 27, 2010, at 4:33:15
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2010, at 23:31:22
whats the connection between 'boston tea party', 'republicans' and 'health reform'. why are these words often mentioned together?
Posted by bleauberry on March 27, 2010, at 19:35:38
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by sdb on March 27, 2010, at 4:33:15
> whats the connection between 'boston tea party', 'republicans' and 'health reform'. why are these words often mentioned together?
The tea party was a show of revolt against the Kings of England who were forcing too much tax on people, too many regulations, and too much stifling of freedom. In other words, heavy handed rulers. Today's tea party folks arose because the current administration is taking a course that cannot avoid but force heavy taxes and heavy control on otherwise free people.
Socialism looks great. And early in the game it is. But with any sense of mathematics and economics, it is not, never has been, and never will be, sustainable. It always goes broke. We need only look at any liberal town, state, or country, to see that. Not a one has ever prospered. They suffer a long slow grinding decline. Free societies thrive.
The tea partiers are free people rising up to say, "hey, we don't want leftist socialist-like stuff in the good ole USA". Obauma happens to openly show his heroes, books, and schooling, are all far leftist.
Democrats like big government. Repubs don't. Generally speaking in broad terms. Thus the tea partiers mostly fall in the Repub category. But as the situation is actually severe, there are a good number of Democrats in the tea party as well.
Massachusetts pretty much spoke for how the nation feels. Demos and Repubs alike joined together as one large tea party. Funny, the first time it happened over 200 years ago, was also Massachusetts.
Posted by bleauberry on March 28, 2010, at 8:49:29
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by desolationrower on March 25, 2010, at 23:31:22
> well i am a (former) law student, and i can say this bill is totally constitutional. at least under current law, though foaming-at-the-mouth teabaggers and the politicians wanting their votes might say otherwise.
I respect that, but in all honesty would base my personal stance on an experienced law professional not a former student.
The dozen or so Attorneys Generals who have challenged the bill must know something you don't know.
>
> i doubt Roberts and his crew will invalidate it, not because they are particularly disinclined to keep current law where it is (not that i think that is bad, in the abstract), but because this is the most conservative possible option that get to (almost) universal care and cost control.No the most conservative method would be:
1. Cut taxes across the board to get millions of people back into paychecks.
2. Slash the laws that prohibit competition within the insurance industry. The ability to cross state lines and shop around. Competition brings prices down and starts new innovative companies to serve unaddressed customer bases, every time it is tried.
3. People get insane amounts of money for lawsuits of frivolous medical complications. Laws need to put a limit on that. A third of a doctor's income goes to his malractice insurance. That's where excess cost is, and doesn't need to be that way. Easy to stop.
4. Leave the currently insured alone. Set up a safety net for the others, which actually most states already have.
5. Avoid anything other nationalized healthcare countries have done...don't do what they do...and do not follow examples of failed programs such as Massachusetts healthcare. Avoid these things, why? Because they fail every single time they are attempted, and they are currently on display for all to see that. Why anyone would want to ignore what is right in front of them, and go ahead and do it anyway, has got to be the definition of insanity.There is no cost control in the current bill. Hiring 10,000 new IRS agents, creating untold panels to decide what you and your doctor used to decide....these are not cost controls, these cost big bucks.
Years ago I had blood drawn at the doctor's office as part of routine visit. These days, that is rare. They instead send you to a nearby hospital or lab to have the bloodwork done. So your insurance is not only paying for the office visit, but for a separate additional bill above and beyond, from the place who took your blood. There are hundreds of such details in the daily routine workings of medicine that can be streamlined to cut costs dramatically.
What cost control will come to is this. You're 65 years old. You aint gonna work again. You not only have diabetes, but now some kind of cancer. You have good odds of recovery with this cancer. But the meds are really costly, and you are old anyway, you aint gonna be productive again, so is that white coat panel going to deem you as being a cost effective way to spend big bucks? I don't think so. Would Blue Cross have done it for you? Yes.
What does nationalized health care cost control look like in Canada, our neighbor? Long waiting lists. Months. Willingly pay cash out of pocket to visit USA instead. Hospital corridors lined with unattended patients laying in their own filth for days. Re-using disposable supplies. These are the kinds of cost controls that happen in nationalized health care.
Mathematically, it is unsustainable. It takes but a 6th grader education to figure that out. That is why it never works. It always runs out of money. The results are always opposite the claimed greatness.
People seem to slam insurance companies. Hey, what's wrong with a profit? If you had your own business, would you want a profit or a loss? Are you jealous someone else worked for success and you didn't get there? Profit is what makes innovation and improvement happen. The lack of it stops improvement and innovation.
So we are upset at Anthem for a desired 40% increase in premiums. Obviously, even I am knarling at that one. But let's get a little deeper into it and see what's going on. Millions upon millions have lost jobs. That means they aren't paying health insurance premiums anymore. The cost of running business is now left to far fewer customers. Anyone need any additional economics or mathematics to figure out why such a large price hike? T
The obvious thing is to point a finger and say, "Greedy!" But, that aint it. They lost a ton of customers to the Obauma depression, formerly the Bush recession.
Sidetrack for a moment. What ever happened to Obauma's pledge a month ago to "focus on the economy like a laser beam"???
>
> "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."That pretty much describes liberals. Despite their claimed love for equality and people, they are instead mired in hate, lies, and deception. When it comes to winning a piece of legislation, it is not about helping the people. It is not about the people's will. It is about, pure and simple, screwing the opponent, and getting as many people as possible dependent on the government. This health care bill is liberalism on display. It is lies and deception that looks like roses and diamonds on the outside, but is rotting sewer on the inside.
Liberalism never works. Neither does nationalized health. Look to any example desired.
I sometimes wonder if there is a genetic component. Liberals are all about emotion, not logic and not facts. It's all feelings based. Ignore truths, embrace emotions. Well, you know how some people get a rush out of a roller coaster ride, others don't want anything to do with it? Everyone has something that gets their pleasure adrenaline going? Well, with liberals, I think it is power over other people that does that. They get goosebumps, chills up the spine, waves of euphoria, by winning something, anything, that allows them to control your life. It's a high to them. That's why their heroes are commonly found in the history books of China or Cuba.
Sorry to go so long here. Healthcare improvement and healthcare for everyone would be totally awesome and totally achievable. Just won't happen with this bill. Mark my words, the opposite will happen. It will cost more than your current insurance does, you'll get less care than before, and people will still fall through the cracks. It will take the best medical system on the planet along with its problems and turn it into a lesser system with more problems than it started with.
Happens every time. Otherwise I wouldn't speak with such surety.
Posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2010, at 20:07:35
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by bleauberry on March 28, 2010, at 8:49:29
BB my husband I called in to read your reply his words he applauds you as you are right on. He just said he'd like to put this post on facebook. Yes the death panels I saw even before this when nursing did a month in ICU and if a vent was needed the questions was who has the worst insurance or oldest . I had to get out of there and did. Love Phillipa
Posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2010, at 12:35:49
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by bleauberry on March 28, 2010, at 8:49:29
>>What does nationalized health care cost control look like in Canada, our neighbor? Long waiting lists. Months. Willingly pay cash out of pocket to visit USA instead. Hospital corridors lined with unattended patients laying in their own filth for days. Re-using disposable supplies. These are the kinds of cost controls that happen in nationalized health care.
Have you ever been in a Canadian hospital? I have and so have members of my family. Never, EVER, have I witnessed unattended patients laying in their own filth, nor have I ever witnessed any hospital staff re-using disposable supplies.
I feel it's fine to debate and discuss the pros and cons of any health care system, but to broadly claim that every Canadian hospital treats their patients as you have claimed is an outright lie.
I feel angry, disgusted and very disrespected.
Posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2010, at 12:54:28
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2010, at 12:35:49
Posted by bleauberry on March 29, 2010, at 19:40:23
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2010, at 12:35:49
> >>What does nationalized health care cost control look like in Canada, our neighbor? Long waiting lists. Months. Willingly pay cash out of pocket to visit USA instead. Hospital corridors lined with unattended patients laying in their own filth for days. Re-using disposable supplies. These are the kinds of cost controls that happen in nationalized health care.
>
> Have you ever been in a Canadian hospital? I have and so have members of my family. Never, EVER, have I witnessed unattended patients laying in their own filth, nor have I ever witnessed any hospital staff re-using disposable supplies.
>
> I feel it's fine to debate and discuss the pros and cons of any health care system, but to broadly claim that every Canadian hospital treats their patients as you have claimed is an outright lie.
>
>
> I feel angry, disgusted and very disrespected.
>
>
>I don't see anywhere that I said "every Canadian hospital"?
These stories are in the media. If it is a lie as you claim, then there are mass outlets lying. But then, that wouldn't be anything new would it.
To be fair, I'm sure some USA nursing homes are just as bad. But then, they are typically underfunded and understaffed as well, same as any national health management, except on a smaller scale.
I'm glad you didn't experience it.
I'm sorry you feel angry, disgusted and very disrespected. The post was not directed at you or anybody so please don't take it personally. The offense was based on media stories and it was aimed at socialized hospitals not you.
I prefer to debate an issue on its merits rather than deflect the topic on emotional responses. My post is about the health care bill, not about Canadian hospitals. I would welcome any and all comments on the issues I discussed.
Because you and your family did not personally see anything does not mean those things don't happen daily. Like I said, TVs and radios have to be telling lies otherwise. Canada is a huge territory. I'm sure there are good parts and bad parts, just like any large geographical area.
Posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2010, at 22:18:25
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later » Justherself54, posted by bleauberry on March 29, 2010, at 19:40:23
Yes, I did take it personally. Rest assured I won't be participating in any further discussions with you on this subject.
Posted by Willful on March 29, 2010, at 23:55:37
In reply to Re: New Health Bill Passed Ammended Hour Later, posted by bleauberry on March 28, 2010, at 8:49:29
To be perfectly honest, I'm offended by your comments about liberals.
You've misrepresented many facts, and made quite a few misstatement in your paragraphs, but I'm not going to address them. Based on these comments, you have no interest in respectfully discussing this issue.
I take exception to the following:
"That pretty much describes liberals. Despite their claimed love for equality and people, they are instead mired in hate, lies, and deception. When it comes to winning a piece of legislation, it is not about helping the people. It is not about the people's will. It is about, pure and simple, screwing the opponent, and getting as many people as possible dependent on the government. This health care bill is liberalism on display. It is lies and deception that looks like roses and diamonds on the outside, but is rotting sewer on the inside."You owe me a withdrawal of the comments. They're untrue as well as unkind.
I would add that I also feel offended by your comments, Phillipa.
Willful
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