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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fayeroe on November 14, 2008, at 5:51:54
Posted by rayww on November 14, 2008, at 15:17:32
In reply to Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by fayeroe on November 14, 2008, at 5:51:54
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705755/
Out of sync. Surely he can make his point some other way. Like, put it on the ballot.
By allowing abortion all we're saying is we don't value life. Those little ideas can grow into larger problems.
Soon they will be aborting (killing) the sick and infirm, those with disabilities, those who can't or won't work, and those with any number of disorders.
If our economy crashes and we can't afford the social programs of the present what else will they be left with? A government with too much power can make too many decisions. All I'm saying is we're heading for trouble.
Posted by seldomseen on November 15, 2008, at 6:33:26
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » fayeroe, posted by rayww on November 14, 2008, at 15:17:32
Out of sync. Surely he can make his point some other way. Like, put it on the ballot.
******Personally, I think what the Catholic church decides to do (Or not do) is ultimately up to them and their members. I disagree with a solely religion-based political agenda, but surely if this issue ends up on a ballot then religion can freely support it.******
By allowing abortion all we're saying is we don't value life. Those little ideas can grow into larger problems.
*****I do not agree with this statement. I think we will never fully know when life begins, it all depends on which authority (or lack of one) a person chooses to accept. If anything, I think allowing abortion says we can't appreciate the potential of life.*******
Soon they will be aborting (killing) the sick and infirm, those with disabilities, those who can't or won't work, and those with any number of disorders.
****Abortion has been legal for close to 40 years, before that abortions were performed for centuries. I really doubt that sanctioning abortion will lead to killing the infirmed. We may not all agree on when life begins, but we are quite clear on what life is (though perhaps not as clear on when life ends).*******
If our economy crashes and we can't afford the social programs of the present what else will they be left with?****I think we will not result to murder. Perhaps informed apathy and negligence, but one could make the argument that we are already, there, but murder? No.*****
A government with too much power can make too many decisions. All I'm saying is we're heading for trouble.
******I would definately agree with this statement. That's why I truly think the gov't should stay out of one of the most fundamental decisions of being human - whether or not to reproduce.*****
Seldom
Posted by rayww on November 15, 2008, at 12:52:29
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » rayww, posted by seldomseen on November 15, 2008, at 6:33:26
Thank-you for your comments.
> Out of sync. Surely he can make his point some other way. Like, put it on the ballot.
>
> ******Personally, I think what the Catholic church decides to do (Or not do) is ultimately up to them and their members. I disagree with a solely religion-based political agenda, but surely if this issue ends up on a ballot then religion can freely support it.******
>
> By allowing abortion all we're saying is we don't value life. Those little ideas can grow into larger problems.
>
> *****I do not agree with this statement. I think we will never fully know when life begins, it all depends on which authority (or lack of one) a person chooses to accept. If anything, I think allowing abortion says we can't appreciate the potential of life.*******There is one point at which all have to agree, once a breath is taken he or she is alive, and to put him or her into a death trap is murder.
>
> Soon they will be aborting (killing) the sick and infirm, those with disabilities, those who can't or won't work, and those with any number of disorders.
>
> ****Abortion has been legal for close to 40 years, before that abortions were performed for centuries. I really doubt that sanctioning abortion will lead to killing the infirmed. We may not all agree on when life begins, but we are quite clear on what life is (though perhaps not as clear on when life ends).*******
>
>
> If our economy crashes and we can't afford the social programs of the present what else will they be left with?
>
> ****I think we will not result to murder. Perhaps informed apathy and negligence, but one could make the argument that we are already, there, but murder? No.*****
>I think this all depends on how slippery the slope is.
> A government with too much power can make too many decisions. All I'm saying is we're heading for trouble.
>
> ******I would definately agree with this statement. That's why I truly think the gov't should stay out of one of the most fundamental decisions of being human - whether or not to reproduce.*****It is hard because of all the "Zaxs" out there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories If I say that Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, is that offensive to you? I didn't say that marriage should only mean, or deny freedom to anyone else, all I said was that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. We will be held accountable for how we treat the family. This isn't necessarily termed religion, or political either. Government has no place here. It is individual freedom of choice. It has been read at the United Nations, at something to do with world policies on the family. The actual proclamation is found at the bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_on_the_Family
I think the reason the Mormon church is so involved is because they alone realize the seriousness of the situation in a way that no other people on the face of the earth do. (Yikes, did I say that???)
Posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2008, at 13:00:47
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » rayww, posted by seldomseen on November 15, 2008, at 6:33:26
>By allowing abortion all we're saying is we don't value life.
I don't agree.
What we are doing when we allow abortion is to allow a choice between evils, because that is less bad than to not do so.
Posted by rayww on November 15, 2008, at 13:32:43
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2008, at 13:00:47
> >By allowing abortion all we're saying is we don't value life.
>
> I don't agree.
>
> What we are doing when we allow abortion is to allow a choice between evils, because that is less bad than to not do so.Gee...Maybe the choice should have been made sometime sooner? Let's see, whenever I've been pregnant it was a whole body experience. Beginning with my whole body feeling exhausted, and then gut wrenching illness. Why would anyone choose to put themselves through that just to get an abortion?
Posted by caraher on November 15, 2008, at 14:35:26
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by rayww on November 15, 2008, at 13:32:43
> Gee...Maybe the choice should have been made sometime sooner? Let's see, whenever I've been pregnant it was a whole body experience. Beginning with my whole body feeling exhausted, and then gut wrenching illness. Why would anyone choose to put themselves through that just to get an abortion?
I'm sorry, I feel tremendously offended by this... "the choice should have been made sometime sooner?"
Please try to cultivate some sensitivity to the tremendous variety of circumstances under which women find themselves in a difficult pregnancy. Of course no woman would "choose to put themselves through that just to get an abortion - that's exactly Sigismund's point about choosing a lesser evil.
No woman chooses abortion lightly.
While I agree that unwise decisions often precede problem pregnancies, it will always be so. The abortion question starts with the existence of difficult pregnancies, and as long as women bear children these will happen. The only question worth asking is what we do for women who find themselves in that circumstance. Self-righteous scolding about past mistakes does nothing to help a pregnant woman or her unborn child.
And it's worth remembering that difficult pregnancies happen even in circumstances where even you would (I hope) consider the woman blameless for her predicament (start with rape and incest, as politicians are wont to do). Would you then no longer consider abortion killing when the woman is somehow less "blameworthy" for being pregnant? Suppose the baby would be born with some horrific illness? Should the future mother have "made the choice earlier" - and how?
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 2:33:42
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by rayww on November 15, 2008, at 13:32:43
>Maybe the choice should have been made sometime sooner?
Yes, that would be my preference.
Posted by Nadezda on November 16, 2008, at 10:18:38
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » rayww, posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 2:33:42
I don't see a moral objection to abortion per se, until fairly late in a pregnancy.
I do see a moral problem with unprotected sex both because of the possibility of giving someone AIDS or getting AIDS (whether you think you or they have it or not) and because of the possibility of getting pregnant (or getting someone pregnant). I particularly think it's wrong to bring unwanted or unprovided-for (emotionally and/or materially) into the world.
Those two strike me as morally careless or irresponsible-- and treating a child (or other people) badly strikes me as morally very wrong.
I see absolutely no connection to killing old or sick poeple, or any of the other horrors listed and abortion.
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 13:12:06
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » Sigismund, posted by Nadezda on November 16, 2008, at 10:18:38
When John Gray was in Sydney he talked about this man in the civil service in Britain during the war. This man appeared before his department and said 'There has been a leak, men are dying because of it, so I am going to do something wrong today.....I am going to sack you all, because that is less bad than allowing servicemen to be killed because of this leak'. And he went ahead and did it. Isaiah Berlin may have used this as an example of ends not being commensurate, but I know no philosophy so I'm really not sure. John Gray told us that this was different to the utilitarian position.
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 13:15:34
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » Sigismund, posted by Nadezda on November 16, 2008, at 10:18:38
Talking about old and sick people.....
Since we wouldn't let an animal suffer as we let people do, isn't there an evil there?
I'm not in favour of euthanasia, since we cannot even organise humane orphanages.
Posted by healing928 on November 16, 2008, at 21:39:26
In reply to Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by fayeroe on November 14, 2008, at 5:51:54
Please correct me if I am wrong. Obama wants abortion rights for all Americans. If a voter is aware that our president elect is pro-abortion, how could the voter be following the church doctorine? God wants life for all. Why bash our faith?
I just did a paper in my ethics class on abortion. Abortion is murder. The fetus is a living human being at the moment of conception, and should be protected. At the moment of conception his or her gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color and skin color are all made.
I was told at a young age I would not be able to conceive. I did not get pregnant at the most convenient time; I was on disability and my husband was also having medical issues. Abortion was never an option for either of us. We thank God every day for our miracle, and I truly believe every child deserves the right to live. I thank God everyday he gave us such a special gift. We talk about the womens right to choose, but what about the baby?
Btw, 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies
Posted by seldomseen on November 16, 2008, at 22:04:43
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by healing928 on November 16, 2008, at 21:39:26
"I just did a paper in my ethics class on abortion. Abortion is murder. The fetus is a living human being at the moment of conception, and should be protected. At the moment of conception his or her gender, eye color, bone structure, hair color and skin color are all made."
*****You see, I just don't think that abortion is murder. I do not think that life begins at conception as the fetus is, to me, clearly not a living human being. It has the ultimate potential to live, but doesn't.
Since there is disagreement, and no universally recognized authority, I believe abortion is a deeply personal, moral decision. One that should not be fodder for the political realm or imposed on another.
I do, however, respect and understand your views, but they simply do not reflect mine.
Seldom
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 22:30:55
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by healing928 on November 16, 2008, at 21:39:26
Being in favour of the right to have an abortion does NOT mean you are in favour of abortion.
Well, it might in the USA, but not here.
Posted by caraher on November 16, 2008, at 23:23:27
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by healing928 on November 16, 2008, at 21:39:26
I don't things are so cut-and-dried as the Republicans exploiting this issue for political gain would like you to think.
See, for instance, these arguments: http://www.newsweek.com/id/164445
Posted by Nadezda on November 16, 2008, at 23:43:10
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by healing928 on November 16, 2008, at 21:39:26
Obama is in favor of all sorts of things. Someone can vote for him without supporting his position on abortion, because there are other issues that are very important.
The priest is essentially saying that everyone has to vote against every candidate whose position is pro-chioce, without any right to consider other issues paramount.. This is a very unwholesome restriction of the right of people to vote, and to decide what's important at any moment, and how to balance interests. You could think for example that you'd continue to work against abortion, but that a candidate's other positions were of great importance, too. But this priest is trying to completely control people's voting in a narrow way. There's no reason to presume that voting for Obama is a vote for choice. It's could be a vote against the war in Iraq, against torture, for certain policies on global warming, on the economy.
Nadezda
Posted by Deneb on November 17, 2008, at 0:15:00
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by seldomseen on November 16, 2008, at 22:04:43
I don't think human beings are special. In my bioethics class we discussed this and it seems like it is the fact that we are sentient that is special. We talked about human "vegetables" and such and removing life support from them. Is what makes them "human" there anymore if they cannot think?
Sentient aliens from another planet would be included as well.
I also remember a bunch of papers we read about having a living grown adult attached to another person for life support and we discussed whether the "host" had a right to disconnect.
I came to the conclusion that even the "host" does not have to keep the other person alive.
I think if a fetus has grown enough to survive outside the womb though, that it would be murder to abort the fetus to kill it.
Posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2008, at 1:01:41
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by Deneb on November 17, 2008, at 0:15:00
What is so special about consciousness anyway?
That we have it and they don't?
We seem to have this idea that we are not animals.
Well, we humans are naturally given to vanity, of course.
Posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2008, at 1:07:11
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2008, at 1:01:41
Further on vanity...
At a service recently I opened Ecclesiastes at random and read some.
Just wonderful. Mind blowing.
Posted by Toph on November 18, 2008, at 10:01:00
In reply to Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by fayeroe on November 14, 2008, at 5:51:54
I have always found the logic baffling of those who advocate government interference between the private medical decision of a woman and her physician, when these same individuals tend to support both the continued killing of innocent people in Iraq after the discovery of no weapons of mass destruction and the goverment execution of people convicted of capitol crimes. Are these lives less precious in God's eyes?
Posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2008, at 13:07:50
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by Toph on November 18, 2008, at 10:01:00
>those who advocate government interference between the private medical decision of a woman and her physician, (are the) same individuals (who) tend to support both the continued killing of innocent people in Iraq after the discovery of no weapons of mass destruction and the goverment execution of people convicted of capitol crimes.
Tell me why, Toph.
I've never understood it myself.
Unless it's our need for theatre, of course.
We are a theatrical species and need hangings/invasions now and then to keep our spirits up and our sense of virtue intact?
Maybe even our faith, Iraq being God's work and all?
Posted by Nadezda on November 18, 2008, at 16:22:50
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters, posted by Toph on November 18, 2008, at 10:01:00
> I have always found the logic baffling of those who advocate government interference between the private medical decision of a woman and her physician, when these same individuals tend to support both the continued killing of innocent people in Iraq after the discovery of no weapons of mass destruction and the goverment execution of people convicted of capitol crimes. Are these lives less precious in God's eyes?
That is so true. I've never understood it--and never will.
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2008, at 18:20:11
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » Toph, posted by Nadezda on November 18, 2008, at 16:22:50
>I've never understood it--and never will.
For this reason I am reading EM Cioran, who has this to say:
"A life of intensity is contrary to the Tao," teaches Lao Tse, a normal man if ever there was one. But the Christian virus torments us: heirs of the flagellants, it is by refining our excrutiations that we become conscious of ourselves. Is religion declining? We perpetuate its extravagances, as we perpetuate the macerations and the cell-shrieks of old, our will to suffer equaling that of the monasteries in their hey-day. If the church no longer enjoys a monopoly on hell, it has nonetheless riveted us to a chain of sighs, of blasted joys and jubilant despair."
Hope that helps.
I'll keep you updated.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 17:55:36
In reply to Re: Priest says no to communion for Obama voters » Nadezda, posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2008, at 18:20:11
> But the Christian virus torments us:
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