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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
Thanks for catching them
Posted by wildcardII on August 10, 2006, at 15:35:54
In reply to A big thank you to England, posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
Posted by 10derHeart on August 10, 2006, at 23:21:01
In reply to A big thank you to England, posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
Posted by MidnightBlue on August 10, 2006, at 23:39:32
In reply to A big thank you to England, posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2006, at 8:11:22
In reply to A big thank you to England, posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 12, 2006, at 15:23:49
In reply to A big thank you to England, posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
Not that I have had anything to do with anything (except pay tax here in the UK!).
But, you know, apparently they were British muslims that they caught plotting - they weren't foreign born nationals as in 9/11 etc.
Which is a quite weird to be honest.
Meri
Posted by Dunder on August 17, 2006, at 9:38:47
In reply to A big thank you to England, posted by AuntieMel on August 10, 2006, at 14:32:41
> Thanks for catching them
As a British citizen, I am very sceptical about this so-called terror plot that has been foiled. This evil Blair government (and the metropolitan police) have lied to the people of this country again and again. Taking us to war in Iraq against the will of the people on a basis of made up evidence of weapons of mass destruction. The met police shot an innocent Brazilian who they claimed was a terrorist and lied about the evidence. They shot an innocent muslim in his home in London, last month - again covering up how they got the wrong man for 2 weeks.
When the government was trying to persuade the people to go to war in Iraq along with the world's number one terrorist aka Bush, they put tanks at Heathrow airport as propoganda to scare the people and persuade them that Iraq and terrorism were some how related. Now, the Blair government want to bring out more laws in this country to curtail the freedoms of citizens, and enable them to lock up anyone they don't like the look of without pressing charges. Our home secretary made a speech last week about how we need these new laws to fight terrorism. The very next day we have this "foiled terror plot"
Sorry to be such a sceptic but I do not believe anything our Government or police say anymore.
If our government wants to stop terrorism then it should stop aligning itself with Bush and stop supporting illegal wars.
BLAIR MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by gardenergirl on August 17, 2006, at 10:12:52
In reply to Please don't thank our lying government, posted by Dunder on August 17, 2006, at 9:38:47
> This evil Blair government (and the metropolitan police) have lied ... .
Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
Regards,
deputy gg
Posted by laima on August 17, 2006, at 19:30:00
In reply to You're welcome :o), posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 12, 2006, at 15:23:49
I say a huge thank you to England, too!And, regardless of whether or not any politicians lie, or what their motives are, or who is in charge- none of it negates the fact that there are people around who are not kind, not innocent, perhaps not even *sane*. They may have motives we don't comprehend. Pretending or wishing the world was safe won't make it so.
I am so extremely grateful that hundreds, if not thousands, of lives of many diverse people were likely spared a horrific and gruesome fate in the nick of time!
> But, you know, apparently they were British muslims that they caught plotting - they weren't foreign born nationals as in 9/11 etc.
>
> Which is a quite weird to be honest.-I've wondered if it is an extremist/quasi-"religious-esque" thing?
Posted by Dunder on August 18, 2006, at 5:33:33
In reply to Please be civil » Dunder, posted by gardenergirl on August 17, 2006, at 10:12:52
Further to my post yesterday, which was written in a state of extreme anger, I wish to apologize for overstating my argument in strong terms.
However, I do believe that the psychology of fear is a very powerful tool for those in government. People in fear will often blindly let their leaders do whatever "necessary" to protect the people. Therefore given the track records of Bush and Blair with being economical with the truth, I think that as citizens we should maintain a healthy scepticism when they claim to have averted a terror threat. Only time and leaked records will tell whether this was a genuine terror threat.
I am not into conspiracy theories at all but over the past few years I have become mistrustful, upset and angry by my government's disinformation and actions taken in my name.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 18, 2006, at 7:46:16
In reply to Apologies for my brash use of language, posted by Dunder on August 18, 2006, at 5:33:33
Hey Dunder!
> I am not into conspiracy theories at all but over the past few years I have become mistrustful, upset and angry by my government's disinformation and actions taken in my name.Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I really don't like the government here at the mo. In fact, I'm rather sick of them. They are constantly messing things up, not to mention this war, immigration, tuition fees, house prices etc etc. Yeah, they do lie.
Still I was just 17 when labour got in this time back in 1997, so I don't really have anything to compare it with - well apart from the fact that I live in a conservative (Kenneth Clark actually) council area, and the council here is very efficent and good. That, and the fact that I got a grant from my first year at uni, which was later taken away by Mr Blair the following year.
Sigh. The UK has become particulary dreadful recently.
Posted by Dunder on August 18, 2006, at 8:52:56
In reply to Re: Apologies for my brash use of language » Dunder, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 18, 2006, at 7:46:16
> Hey Dunder!
>
> > I am not into conspiracy theories at all but over the past few years I have become mistrustful, upset and angry by my government's disinformation and actions taken in my name.
>
> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I really don't like the government here at the mo. In fact, I'm rather sick of them. They are constantly messing things up, not to mention this war, immigration, tuition fees, house prices etc etc. Yeah, they do lie.
>
> Still I was just 17 when labour got in this time back in 1997, so I don't really have anything to compare it with - well apart from the fact that I live in a conservative (Kenneth Clark actually) council area, and the council here is very efficent and good. That, and the fact that I got a grant from my first year at uni, which was later taken away by Mr Blair the following year.
>
> Sigh. The UK has become particulary dreadful recently.Hi Meri-Tuuli,
Good to hear from a someone else who is fed up with Blair and co. This Labour government is now more Thatcherite than Thatcher was. Based on your MP, I guess you must live in Nottingham (I went to Uni there). Although I am highly critical of the government, I am certain that a conservative government would be much worse. Maybe I'll have to keep voting Green even though its probably a wasted vote.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 18, 2006, at 11:32:07
In reply to Re: Apologies for my brash use of language, posted by Dunder on August 18, 2006, at 8:52:56
Hey Dunder,
I vote green too!!!! Yeah, always have done (although I think I once voted Lib Dem coz there wasn't a green candidate).
I wish more people would vote green.
I just recently voted green in Finland's last election in winter (I have dual nationality, Finnish/British).
Personally, I don't like Nottingham one bit. I'm moving to Finland in September. I'm rather fed up of the UK to be honest!!!
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Estella on August 19, 2006, at 0:30:10
In reply to Re: Apologies for my brash use of language » Dunder, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 18, 2006, at 11:32:07
I vote green and they got something like 7 seats in parliament last time :-)
(we go with the german system)
Posted by Declan on August 19, 2006, at 1:44:23
In reply to Apologies for my brash use of language, posted by Dunder on August 18, 2006, at 5:33:33
I've just finished "The Great War for Civilization" by Robert Fisk.
Talk about lies.
You don't need to apologise to me.
(I'm from Australia.)
DeclanAt least I think that's the title. can I have forgotten it so quickly?
Posted by Dunder on August 21, 2006, at 5:15:31
In reply to Re: Apologies for my brash use of language » Dunder, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 18, 2006, at 11:32:07
> Hey Dunder,
>
> I vote green too!!!! Yeah, always have done (although I think I once voted Lib Dem coz there wasn't a green candidate).
>
> I wish more people would vote green.
>
> I just recently voted green in Finland's last election in winter (I have dual nationality, Finnish/British).
>
> Personally, I don't like Nottingham one bit. I'm moving to Finland in September. I'm rather fed up of the UK to be honest!!!
>
> Kind regards
>
> MeriHi Meri,
I got sick of Nottingham too so I left to Australia for a while and now I live in London - I love it here although I plan to go back to Oz at some point. I am quite jealous of your move to Finland. From what I have read, the scandinavian countries seem to have the best socioeconomic systems on the planet in my view. There is a much smaller diparity between the rich and the poor with great education, health care and social welfare for all. The UK is heading too far into the free market way of the American economy which in my opinion puts profits before people. It has been well documented that since this so called Labour government have been in power that the rich have got significantly richer and the poor have become poorer. It is so wrong.
Regards
Dunder
Posted by Dunder on August 21, 2006, at 5:26:41
In reply to Re: Apologies for my brash use of language » Dunder, posted by Declan on August 19, 2006, at 1:44:23
> I've just finished "The Great War for Civilization" by Robert Fisk.
> Talk about lies.
> You don't need to apologise to me.
> (I'm from Australia.)
> Declan
>
> At least I think that's the title. can I have forgotten it so quickly?Hi Declan,
I haven't read that book but I often read Robert Fisk's articles in The Independent newspaper. That man speaks a lot of sense.
By the way, I'm not sure who is worse off - me with Blair as PM or you with Howard. I spent an excellent year living in Oz. I love your country. However, I found John Howard to be a horrible little man. With his anti-imigrant (and in my opinion verging on racist) policies, his blind support of Bush and his refusal to support the Kyoto Protocol. At least Blair seems to support action on climate change although to be honest he hasn't achieved much action yet.
Cheers
Dunder
Posted by Dunder on August 21, 2006, at 5:33:17
In reply to yay green, posted by Estella on August 19, 2006, at 0:30:10
> I vote green and they got something like 7 seats in parliament last time :-)
>
> (we go with the german system)Hi Estella,
It's good to hear from another Green. Again, I find myself jealous of another country's political system. I wish we had proportional representation (PR) like in the rest of Europe. With our antiquated first-past-the-post voting system it means that minority parties such as the Greens don't stand a chance. However, if we had PR and they won some seats, they would be more visible to the public and thus hopefully gain greater support.
All the best
Dunder
Posted by gardenergirl on August 21, 2006, at 7:57:23
In reply to Cheers Declan, posted by Dunder on August 21, 2006, at 5:26:41
> I found John Howard to be a horrible little man. With his anti-imigrant (and in my opinion verging on racist) policies,
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. I asked you to be civil before, so now I am blocking you from posting for one week.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions. Thus, you can always appeal this decision to him via email, and he may choose a different action.
Regards,
deputy gg
Posted by gardenergirl on August 21, 2006, at 8:01:57
In reply to Re: Apologies for my brash use of language » Dunder, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 18, 2006, at 7:46:16
> Yeah, they do lie.
>Please don't post anything that could lead others, which could include those who support the present UK government, to feel accused or put down. If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions. Thus, you can always appeal this decision to him, and he may choose a different action.
Regards,
deputy gg
Posted by Declan on August 21, 2006, at 15:23:54
In reply to Cheers Declan, posted by Dunder on August 21, 2006, at 5:26:41
Sorry about that Dunder. I shouldn't have mentioned the man.
At the last election here the ALP raised the issue of trust, as in 'can you trust the PM to tell the truth?'. The PM's no slouch and made 'trust' the centrepiece of his campaign. (This broadens the moral issue and makes the voters complicit.) He was saying something like 'you know what I stand for'. The 'lies' were taken for granted; none cared very much, but we have become densensitised, I think.
Declan
Posted by tealady on August 22, 2006, at 2:09:08
In reply to I'm jealous of your move to Finland, posted by Dunder on August 21, 2006, at 5:15:31
Cheers to you Dunder.
Actually I haven't as yet heard of a Brit or an Aussie with any different view... I guess there must be some somewhere.. or else the gerrymeander is way worse than I thought;-)No need for any apologies to me either. One can't easily or even maybe its impossible to be frank, open and honest in expressing one's thoughts maybe..as on this topic, most have fairly strong thoughts. .. or they've given up and become totally apathetic about it all and just prefer NOT to think about it all any more. (that's me)
Yes, I agree.. Finland does sound good..Congrats Meri.
Alsp pity about the swing towards the US capitalism, mite is rite, profit above all else.. and one can factor all into profit and economics.. yeah, sure..
The world seems to have gone adrift somewhere, no?
OTOH I'm not a communist either, people do need some incentive to strive a little harder.. just there's a point beyond which we have really gone waaay past to the detriment of society as well as the health of maybe the majority.
Hope this makes some sense to ya. Welcome.
I'm not here much anymore, just dropped in.
Theres another guy (tejay ) from Britain that posts here too sometimes.. only he can't at present. He must be due back soon though?Jan
Posted by tealady on August 22, 2006, at 2:14:00
In reply to Sorry Dunder, posted by Declan on August 21, 2006, at 15:23:54
> Sorry about that Dunder. I shouldn't have mentioned the man.
> At the last election here the ALP raised the issue of trust, as in 'can you trust the PM to tell the truth?'. The PM's no slouch and made 'trust' the centrepiece of his campaign. (This broadens the moral issue and makes the voters complicit.) He was saying something like 'you know what I stand for'. The 'lies' were taken for granted; none cared very much, but we have become densensitised, I think.
> DeclanApathy Dec?
I still think he must be useful as a comparison for the Brits..and I've still not had anyone prepared for a theoretical leader swap.. but it's like ya said Dec.. compared to, sigh...
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 22, 2006, at 4:55:27
In reply to Please be civil » Meri-Tuuli, posted by gardenergirl on August 21, 2006, at 8:01:57
Hey!
I've never had a warning before. I feel like a naughty schoolgirl!
I didn't realise that what I'd said could be interpreted as offensive.
But what happens if its true? Why is that offensive if its *true* - surely its just a fact? Would it have been better if I'd said that 'In my opinion, politicans do lie here in the UK'?
For instance, say XYZ was obese. And someone said 'oh XYZ, do you suffer in this heat because you're overweight'. Is that offensive, even if its the *truth*? Or if you said 'do you suffer in this cold because you're so skinny?'
So is it offensive if what you're talking about is *fact*? Thats what I'm trying to ask, basically.
Because what I said previously, is a well known *fact* here. And if its the truth, how can it be offensive? Obviously the truth ain't pretty sometimes, but how can *facts* be offensive?
I mean, another example, is it offensive to supporters of XYZ if I say that XYZ is a murderer, if in fact, it has been proved (beyond resonable doubt or whatever) that XYZ had indeed murdered someone?
Anyone care to enlighten me?
Kind regards
Meri
> > Yeah, they do lie.
> >
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others, which could include those who support the present UK government, to feel accused or put down. If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions. Thus, you can always appeal this decision to him, and he may choose a different action.
>
> Regards,
>
> deputy gg
>
Posted by tealady on August 22, 2006, at 7:09:37
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 22, 2006, at 4:55:27
enlightenment.. no, sorry Meri.
but I've wondered.. that one part of the govt stuff.. say diplomats. Their job is , I guess, to be diplomatic. Now does being diplomatic involve lying?.. or merely omitting and being evasive? Is this , when it leads to misleading, is this lying?
I guess its good to be able to be diplomatic.,
i mean a govt can say " well we sure arent going to put our soldiers over there with all that bombing etc!".. or they can say " Our resources do not stretch far enough for our soldiers to be able to be sent over there".. diplomatic and acceptable, but maybe not really completely truthful in every respect is it..I mean if we wanted to be there we could take away from somewhere else, draft people etc.. it's just that really we don't want to enough , do we?
.. I'll omit the rest here..
Anyway..I'm with ya.. how CAN anyone conduct politics in a country without some form of 'lying/diplomacy/not completely revealing the full truth". Is it possible?.. I doubt it..
I guess it depends on ones definition of lying.. if it Is (as is accepted by some) saying(or even omitting) something with an intention to deceive or mislead or give a false impression, then can countries govts actually run without lying?
I'd like fuller more open and informative govt myself, but I guess there are times even in the most open of govts sometimes "diplomacy" may involve not being fully open and honest? Is this lying if it may mean some people are misled or not fully understand?and that doesn't even consider propoganda during war :-)
Thoughts for enlightenment anyone?
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