![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 71 to 95 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by zeugma on March 23, 2006, at 19:28:43
In reply to what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger* » special_k, posted by 10derHeart on March 23, 2006, at 18:25:39
just jumping in, I don't have the heart (no pun intended) to read through this whole thread. But I would think that if we owe something to a group of people whose fates we have involved ourselves with, it's the Kurds. I had thought that in Gulf War I it was a mistake to leave Saddam in power because we encouraged the Kurds to rebel and then watched them become victims (we wanted them to do our dirty work- realpolitik is not the most principled way of conducting foreign policy).
One can only hope for the best, now. It is horrific.
-z
Posted by Declan on March 25, 2006, at 18:42:56
In reply to Re: what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger* » 10derHeart, posted by zeugma on March 23, 2006, at 19:28:43
I seem to remember that Simon Bolivar said that trying to control Latin America was like ploughing the sea. Even with the experience of eastern Europe behind them, it is still difficult to fathom the optimism of Wolfowitz and whoever else in Iraq. Did I hear that at the time of 9/11 the CIA did not have one fluent Arabic speaker? Can that be right?
Declan
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2006, at 23:52:23
In reply to Re: Iraqi Deaths, posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 15:46:04
> i dont' tihnk the us is helping...
>
> i think the us has too much power politically.
>
> i don't tihnk the us is helping.Keeping in mind that the idea here is to be sensitive to the feelings of others, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 2:22:47
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » special_k, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2006, at 23:52:23
sorry. thanks for giving me chance to rephrase...
i think it would be more helpful to turn the control of the troops over to the un.
and if that is out...
i think it would be more helpful for the troops to withdraw.
because while i appreciate that us is trying to help i think more hostility results from foreign occupation than would result from absence of foreign occupation. i mean... civil war and people will die yes, but people are dying now and i think withdrawal would be better.
i think other countries don't have enough power politically BUT i also think that there should be stricter laws on EVERYBODY re not having nuclear weapons and stuff...
i think that if people are using chemical warfare in Iraq then the UN should have some other countries supporting them to take custody of the people alledged to be responsible and try them in a court of law for war crimes. but i think the same should happen regarding the use of white phosophorous by american forces in Iraq.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 27, 2006, at 8:34:35
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 2:22:47
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2006, at 9:30:19
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 2:22:47
Thank you for acknowledging that the intent is good.
I don't mind disagreement about methods. I have them inside myself all the time, because it's a complex topic.
While I have doubts that when dealing with people who are killing and or raping, that the best idea is to send in social services without the police being on hand (as a metaphor), I do understand the issues with who the metaphorical police may be.
It occurs to me that the best alternative would be the creation of a pan-ethnic and pan-sectarian all Arab (and all African) peacekeeping force that is neutral on all topics except violence. I wonder if that's a possibility. I know there's an African force available, but I'm not sure how it's working out. And I understand that the goal is to build an Iraqi army that is capable of doing their own peacekeeping, but I hear reports that that isn't going too well.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:33:55
In reply to Re: what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger* » 10derHeart, posted by special_k on March 23, 2006, at 18:51:22
"thanks i didnt' know about that at all.
so... there was talk of genocide..."
Well, only if you call 400,000 dead "talk"
I didn't post the link, but I quoted that same article.
Here is another one I quoted from:
http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn
I don't know what, if any, motives there were by people in our government, but stories like these are why *I* initially supported going into this country.
There is a huge part of me that is ashamed we didn't do more to help sooner.
Of course, I also wish we had done it better. Deposing the government there was easy. There should have been a better plan for rebuilding.
---------------------------------
"i still think it should be up to the UN."So do I - that is if the UN would actually do something.
As it turned out, lots of those who should have been doing something were instead making tons of money off the so-called "oil for food" program.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090701646.html
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004801
Posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:34:52
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 2:22:47
I must say - that was an excellent job of rephrasing.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 27, 2006, at 15:22:34
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » special_k, posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:34:52
Posted by zeugma on March 27, 2006, at 17:05:50
In reply to Re: what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger* » special_k, posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:33:55
Deposing the government there was easy. There should have been a better plan for rebuilding..>
there was a plan for rebuilding?
It appears that planning reached exactly this far, and I quote President Bush verbatim:
"As far as destroying the oil wells were concerned, the U.S. was well equipped to repair them quickly, although this would be easier in the south of Iraq than in the north."
<President Bush, quoted from a memo recently leaked by an official in the Blair government, no doubt seized by an attack of conscience>
I am pleased to quote words by our President that display the candor that won him one (and arguably two) national elections in the United States.
As for the intent of the Untited States being good- perhaps, like Dr. Bob, we had best get out of the business of judging intent, and focus on the results.
-z
Posted by Declan on March 27, 2006, at 19:23:34
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 2:22:47
It seems such a big subject. I'm not sure at all there is AN intent. Individuals may have an intent. Human nature is not such as to allow only good intentions, surely. There are layers, things are projected etc. I seem to remember President Bush saying something to the effect of 'If only they realised how good we are?' That sounds so strange that I'm willing to admit the possibility that I made it up. But intention in Iraq?? Well, for a long time to come people will be writing books about it, trying to figure out the intentions of all involved. A lot of the intentions of the American participants would relate to domestic considerations, would they not?
Declan
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 28, 2006, at 9:56:25
In reply to Re: Iraqi Deaths, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 9:48:35
>But isn't the question *now* what to do to minimize the number of deaths? Most analysts I've seen, whether or not they were opposed to the war, don't believe a pullout will result in the least number of deaths - other than of course deaths among the soldiers. According to Asne Seirstad's book (apologies for misspellings), one of the greatest fears in Iraq was that a civil war would ensue from the removal of the existing regime.
I agree that to leave the country tommorrow, with the current state of Iraq at present, would not be the best move. However, I believe the withdrawal process plan, which was made before the invasion began, I think its been a learning curve for the future as it could have been planned out more carefully. Easy to say at this stage of course, but timing of withdrawal is in many ways as important as the intial invasion. There will come a time too possibly when the military presence is doing more harm than good, possibly, and that is an ideal time when they should leave. I also think that time should happen sooner, rather than later, the withdrawal that is. Ideally, my own view, is that the US and UK should withdraw asap, any financial gains through business set up for either the US or UK should be stopped. Other countires who are neutral eg Sweden, Finland could stand a better chance of help keeping the piece and use the business' in place soley to be used for the profits to rebuild the country, rather than the countries profiting themselves. I doubt my idea will come in to play though somehow lol I have heard that some soldiers who was serving out in Iraq are totally annoyed with what happened out there, in their own words saying that they destroyed the country, consquently they left the Armed forces because they felt it was very wrong and it was hard to be proud of their actions when the view of the war was illegal in the beginning.
>What was the strategy in Central Europe? How did the ethnic fighting there end?
The thing is with central Europe, the Middle East is very much so a different culture of people..
>And again, what about the Sudan. Is it really moral to stand by and do nothing in that situation? Goodness only knows I have absolutely no desire to get involved, but what's going on saddens me so greatly that it feels wrong to me to do nothing. Like watching domestic violence and not calling the police
I know what you mean. When the invasion began, the military were in control of $40 billion dollars, which was the money from the Iraqi reserve bank and was to be used to help rebuild the country. Because of war profiteers and Iraq law was not in place and neither was American at the time of the initial invasion I think, these law decisions came from the Penthouse. Its estimated that 8 - 10 $billion of that cash has gone 'missing' For example a hospital was to have 2 or 4 million dollars, for its reconstruction. Its shows on paper that it was 'spent' when in reality the money was never used. Some was, but not alot. There appeared to be orders that the money was to be spent very quickly to get results, in reality what happened was the money was 'used' very quickly, unfortunately the results did not happen. The state of the hospital was/is left with flooring that exsposes raw sewage, imagine the hygine, and that is in an operating theater. In the pediatric department, incubators are stuck together with plasters. Basic medical equipment and basic drugs is so bad, that even Vitamin K is not readily available and there is more chance of getting it on the black market than in the hospital. When a child dies because of these standards, he is placed in a cardboard box and simply given to the parents to leave the hospital. The health care is described less than primitive. The sad thing is however, that before the invasion took place, Iraq had the best health care compared to all its neighbouring countries..
Its fairly common today as well for the Iraq citizens to have a knock on their door in the middle of the night to be greeted with 20+ American soldiers breaking through the door, grab the head of the family, pin him down on the floor with a bag over his head whilst his house is smashed to bits as the soldiers look for evidence. He wife and small children have to witness this and in this particular case when he's brother and uncle argued about the treatment they were beaten. The head of the house was held over night in custody of the soldiers only to be realeased the next day because they realized he wasn't an insurgent after all. He was given $1,500 for compensation to rebuild his home.
This is where things are now getting complicated because alot of Iraqi citizens are getting angry with the treatment of not only themselves, but with the promises of the vision for democracy, the improved education, hospitals, oil, electric supplys etc. Some of the citizens are saying they are making far less from the oil than they were before the occupation. Because of this when they fight back and are killed, they probably not recorded as being killed as citizens, more likely terrorists or something.
>There is no "good" solution at this point. But perhaps we can look to history to help us find the least bad solution.
I guess the best start is to look at what is causing the problems. I think that America is the current Roman or British Empire, empire to be more exact, of our times and it is in its infancy with knowing how to deal with the power they have internationally. In time my guess is that as well as having its own style of doing things, through learning and experience hopefully the Iraq situation will not happen again, the entire process of how to remove the leader of a country and dealing with the after effects. I also think that like most Empires, over time America's power and control will decrease resulting in the rest of the world growing warmer feelings towards them Politically. In turn, perhaps greater peace will be the outcome.
Robert Mugabe should, or maybe someone of interest in the future, espeically if the Iraq situation wasn't in place as many people under his rule are very frightened to speak out about whats going on there... it is strange the way the hunger and disease in Africa, or even the 46 million people in America without medical insurance are suffering in the background, and when in hindsight, all the money that was injected into Iraq - what it could have achived elsewhere..
~
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 10:27:49
In reply to Re: Iraqi Deaths, posted by Sobriquet Style on March 28, 2006, at 9:56:25
Sigh. Now with a lovely post like that, you've drawn me back in. :)
I don't disagree with a thing you say, except that the state of health care and other services in Iraq hadn't been all that wonderful since before the sanctions. Sadly, the sanctions hurt the general populace far worse than they hurt the elite. At one time, Iraq was a liberal and progressive area. Even under that administration. But the sanctions did a lot of damage.
Sadly whenever there is money to be had, there will be money misused. Even here after Katrina. Even in aid organizations that mean well, but where the food and medicine oftimes gets diverted towards those in power and away from those who really need it. And certainly U.S. citizens and companies are no less susceptible to temptation than anyone else. There needs to be strict accountablility, which is made more difficult by the unstable conditions there right now.
And sadly, men and women put under the sort of stress that soldiers are put under daily, with suicide bombers and the involvement of the citizenry, will sometimes react in ways they might later regret. I think the overall plan was always to hold the public relations upper hand, both within Iraq and in the world. So I doubt that there is top down approval for mistreatment of Iraqi citizens. Stronger accountability needs to be in place there as well.
I agree that turning what is now supposed to be a peacekeeping operation while the Iraqi government gains the ability to take over for itself would be best turned over to others. Are others willing to have it turned over to them? I'd certainly back any plans to do that.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:25:58
In reply to Re: Iraqi Deaths » Sobriquet Style, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 10:27:49
IF the sole rationale for the US troops invading was WMD....
Then the US troops were wrong to go in (as there were no WMD and thus they should withdraw)
The us made a mistake... and an apology is due.
If the US troops stay... There is talk about how the Iraq citizens are viewing US miliatry as hostile foreign occupation. I wonder why with the bombing of wedding parties and the dropping of white phosphorous...
The stats say the majority of Iraq citizens want US withdrawal of troops.
SO you tell me... Why should the opinion of US citizens even be relevant.
If you want Iraq to be a democracy then how about giving them the right to determine what goes on in their own country.
If the majority of Iraq citizens want US troops to withdraw
Then what on earth does the opinion of people in the US have to do with it?
And why is the US allowed to disregard what the country has democratically decided?
What kind of democracy do americans believe in again/??????
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 8:03:56
In reply to Re: Iraqi Deaths » Sobriquet Style, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 10:27:49
>Sigh. Now with a lovely post like that, you've drawn me back in. :)
I would of liked to try and put more of positive spin on it, if only I was a spin doctor :-) I really do wish I had more brighter facts to add to the discussion but I'm just not hearing any lately..
>Sadly whenever there is money to be had, there will be money misused. Even here after Katrina. Even in aid organizations that mean well, but where the food and medicine oftimes gets diverted towards those in power and away from those who really need it.
Thats a very good point.
>And sadly, men and women put under the sort of stress that soldiers are put under daily, with suicide bombers and the involvement of the citizenry, will sometimes react in ways they might later regret.
Thats very true. One of the unforunate aspects of some of the soldiers involved on the front line is their combat experience and age. The SAS and Delta Force have no worries when it comes to dealing with dangerous situations and judgement calls, like when/if to fire upon a vehicle of suspected insurgents, and to blend in undercover when needed too. Whereas other soliders who are just kids some of them, are alittle more nervous and perhaps trigger happy when in doubt which can cause problems with friendly fire and shooting at innocent targets.
>Are others willing to have it turned over to them?
Sadly, not that I know of at present.
>I'd certainly back any plans to do that.
Me too.
:-)
~
Posted by zeugma on March 29, 2006, at 16:07:41
In reply to Re: Iraqi Deaths, posted by Sobriquet Style on March 29, 2006, at 8:03:56
I just heard President Bush say, in the gravest, most serious tones, that the chaos in Iraq is the result of the terrible legacy of Saddam Hussein.
Which is much like Robespierre blaming Marie Antoinette for the invention of the guilliotine.
-z
Posted by Declan on March 31, 2006, at 14:25:09
In reply to nothing is true, posted by zeugma on March 29, 2006, at 16:07:41
Maybe democracies need amnesia to function? And maybe in countries like Iraq people know their history, until they get the modern world to distract and occupy that space. Perhaps for them the Sykes-Picot agreement is recent, Genghis Khan's deal with the Pope (or whatever it was) not so very long ago.
Declan
Posted by zeugma on March 31, 2006, at 17:47:30
In reply to Re: nothing is true, posted by Declan on March 31, 2006, at 14:25:09
Suburbs are essentially mechanisms for the erasing of memory. (And our democracy here seems suburban.)
There was a Vietnam memorial in a suburb I once spent some time in, and it looked strange and garish, more like a monument to suburbia itself than to the fallen. Memorials in older places... there are such in the seedy northern suburbs of NYC, Colonial houses, Baltimore and Boston have houses that reflect British commerce, maritime houses where Sykes-Picot would have been dreamed up, had that deal been struck in the mid 18th century, though the houses themselves predate even that. and one feels that history is in the people who see these houses every day. Or maybe I just in a reverie..
In any case, President Bush has just offered earthquake aid to Iran, a form of diplomacy I thoroughly approve.
-z
Posted by AuntieMel on April 3, 2006, at 15:26:02
In reply to U.S. intentions in Iraq, posted by zeugma on March 27, 2006, at 17:05:50
"here was a plan for rebuilding?"
I was trying to leave open the possibility there might be a *secret* plan.
Posted by zeugma on April 3, 2006, at 16:00:02
In reply to Re: U.S. intentions in Iraq » zeugma, posted by AuntieMel on April 3, 2006, at 15:26:02
> "here was a plan for rebuilding?"
>
> I was trying to leave open the possibility there might be a *secret* plan.>>it will remain a secret until halfway through the next President's term.
At which point every secret will come out, and with luck, members of this Administration...
-z
Posted by Declan on April 3, 2006, at 18:09:33
In reply to Re: what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger* » special_k, posted by AuntieMel on March 27, 2006, at 10:33:55
I find it hard to believe that people in the administration were so (is it offensive to say?) ignorant, as to simply transpose the experience of eastern Europe to the middle east. (But maybe they didn't?) That would imply a disregard for the history of the middle east. I've never understood it. But in the days of British Imperialism there were, I think, many more educated people who took an interest in the native subjects of the empire. Probably not a lot filtered through into actual policy, but it was there.
Declan
Posted by Declan on April 3, 2006, at 22:09:15
In reply to Re: what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger*, posted by Declan on April 3, 2006, at 18:09:33
I don't understand this trigger business, but thanks anyway. Ther name of the person I was trying to think of is, I think, Gertrude Bell. And then of course there was Richard Burton (not that one) and Lawrence (not that one either). I just think we need to more adequately understand other countries and cultures, especially if we (as an Australian here) are party to invading them and hoping they will cooperate with our plans. This shouldn't be offensive to anyone. I'm just in favour of being informed.
Declan
Posted by Declan on April 10, 2006, at 6:27:26
In reply to Re: what happend to the Kurds *poss. trigger*, posted by Declan on April 3, 2006, at 22:09:15
'In the days immediately following the attack on the Shia shrine in Samarra on 22 February, some 1300 bodies, mostly Sunni, were found in and around Baghdad.' Patrick Cockburn, London Review of Books
Posted by tealady on April 12, 2006, at 3:56:05
In reply to Iraqi deaths, posted by Declan on April 10, 2006, at 6:27:26
How many US soldiers, US kids?
what count matters?
Posted by Declan on April 12, 2006, at 18:51:37
In reply to Re: Iraqi deaths » Declan, posted by tealady on April 12, 2006, at 3:56:05
Hi Jan
The whole thing is very offensive really. The way the lives of those in the third world count for so little. As we all know. But after WWII, Zhukov was talking to US generals who asked him some technical questions, one of which was 'how do you clear a mine field in a hurry?' to which he replied 'round up the nearest village and send them over it.' 20 (or was it 35?) million deaths there. You need a strong stomach for this world.
Declan
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Politics | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.