![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 24 to 48 of 48. Go back in thread:
Posted by lil' jimi on November 10, 2005, at 21:36:30
In reply to Re: t o r t u r e, posted by Declan on November 10, 2005, at 13:08:28
declan writes:
> There is an academic here (Australia) in some law department made who the usual arguments in favour of torture (What if ripping someone's fingernails out would save a thousand lives, let's regularise it, we can't rule it out). It was controversial and dealt with in the quality press, but it would only take (the expected) terrorist attack to make such arguments more acceptable. I've been dreading what such an attack would do to politics here. It's already bad enough.
> Declandeclan, declan ...
i do not mean to be one-upping you here.
... and it so in keeping with the braggart Texan motif ... ... i live in austin ...
there are a lot of the r*dneck elements which australia and texas have in common ..."an academic" you say?
well, it's not like your chief law enforcement officer (Attorney General of the United States Alberto Gonzales) is known to have helped author the white house memo on torture and referred to the Geneva Conventions as obsolete.
see
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040607/editors
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536
http://kbonline.typepad.com/random/files/gonzales_memo_on_gen_conv_january_25_2002_pt_1.pdfor when the vice president's chief of staff (I. Lewis Libby) was indicted for obstruction of justice, David Addington, the chief author of the white house torture memo gets promoted to replace Libby ...
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/01/1518210
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9917435/
http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2005/1030nj1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Addingtonthere is practically no (positive) quality in the mainstream media here and only lately have they begun to deal with any of this. ... ... but only after someone got re-elected a year ago ... ...
if only this were some ramblings of some denizen of academia's ivory towers ...
... instead of major operators within the administration of the world's only super power ...take care,
~ jim
Posted by lil' jimi on November 11, 2005, at 9:44:20
In reply to Re: t o r t u r e » lil' jimi, posted by zeugma on November 9, 2005, at 19:12:14
Posted by lil' jimi on November 11, 2005, at 10:27:46
In reply to The Reichstag all over again » lil' jimi, posted by Declan on November 7, 2005, at 17:47:36
see http://billmon.org/archives/002335.html
"Nuremberg International Military Tribunal"
would these guys beleive
"Crimes against humanty mean never having to have to say you're sorry" ?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 12, 2005, at 2:07:53
In reply to Re: t o r t u r e, posted by Declan on November 10, 2005, at 0:12:04
> I feel [the current set of rulers of the US, UK and Australia] have been dishonest and that they dishonour our countries' best traditions.
Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings.
I recently asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for 1 week again.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 12, 2005, at 2:08:31
In reply to Re: t o r t u r e = cowardice, posted by lil' jimi on November 10, 2005, at 19:42:49
> > Anyone who advocates the use of torture or inhumane treatment for any reason should be viewed with contempt.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Even if you're quoting someone else.
I recently asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for 2 weeks again.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Jakeman on November 16, 2005, at 1:53:31
In reply to Tree Frogs, Quilts, and Pine Cones » Jakeman, posted by verne on November 14, 2005, at 22:46:22
> When I said it's not "black and white", I'm not suggesting I condone torture or there's any room for doubt in my own mind, but only that there's enough gray area for discussion. That, in many circles, including the government, it's being debated. That, in some minds, at least, there's room for discussion. (The original topic also included inhumane treatment of prisoners)
>
> Then the question becomes, how is this topic discussed civilly? Even though, we may not think there's anything to debate about, how do we talk about the unspeakable, if the discussion already exists?
>
> We can say torture and inhumane treatment are wrong but what we can't say, is, anyone who disagrees with me should be "viewed with contempt". Such comments end any sort of civil discussion and don't really further our argument anyway.
>
> What if we don't really see any room for discussion, that our side is wholly right, and their's, wholly wrong? And what we really want to do, is throw red dye on their fur coats, cut their tuna nets, or yell at them - not discuss the matter! Like hockey, psychobabble has rules - well, maybe hockey was a bad example.
>
> We can say x, y and z are always bad in every way imaginable, we can describe our position at length, we can unmercifully win the argument with well-crafted wit, superior debating skills, and unrelenting logic, we can outquote and outreference them, but what we can't do, is attack those who disagree with us. We can't get personal.
>
> This is the point I try to be making.
>
> VerneIt was not my intention to cut off any discussion about the pros or cons of torture on this board. And I didn't make any derogatory personal statements toward others on this board. Let's talk, by all means! I want to hear all sides.
I was referring to policies advocated by some in our admistration. I DO think it is a is black and white issue for our government, and they are deciding it now. Are our reps in favor or not? We, (US citizens) are making a historic decision here that affects many people. It's one of those black and white questions of all time. Can one ask, where do you stand? Yes, by all means, let's discuss it here, civilly of course.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by alexandra_k on November 16, 2005, at 16:10:42
In reply to Re: Torture, a clarification » verne, posted by Jakeman on November 15, 2005, at 22:54:02
Posted by alexandra_k on November 16, 2005, at 16:20:07
In reply to Re: Torture, a clarification, posted by alexandra_k on November 16, 2005, at 16:10:42
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/un/2005/0607kleinconsent.htm
Posted by lil' jimi on November 26, 2005, at 3:17:09
In reply to Re: t o r t u r e » zeugma, posted by lil' jimi on November 11, 2005, at 9:44:20
Posted by lil' jimi on December 12, 2005, at 14:00:25
In reply to Re: Patriot Act: Fascist Attack on our democracy, posted by lil' jimi on November 7, 2005, at 0:50:47
Please read these if your soul has the strength
... Pretty Please?:ACLU pushes for release of prison, torture documents
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/ACLU_pushes_for_release_of_prison_1212.htmlGovernment Documents on Torture
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq
http://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/gen/21236prs20051024.htmlACLU Motion on CIA Glomar Ruling
http://www.aclu.org/natsec/warpowers/22585lgl20051212.htm
http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file149_22585.pdf"Rendition"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10316560/Secret U.S. Laws
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_12/007745.phpand for further reference see:
Secrecy and Security News
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/12/index.html...
secret laws, secret evidence, secret trials, secret prisons, secret torture ...
... ... with defenders like these, who needs terrorists?folks, i feel it is pernicious and unconscionable that these facts have come to be part of United States over the last five years.
unfortunately, mr. cheney and his associates do Not feel that way ...
... ... and they are running our country.so who is the greater threat to civilization as we know it?
... or, at least, as we used to know it?
Dick Cheney and his fundamentalist right wing supporters?
or Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda cronies?i'll be quiet now.
~ lil' jimi ... still on only 10mg of lexaprop.s.
okay.
i'll admit it;
it is not a real choice ...
because they are both working hand-in-hand ...
aren't they?
Posted by lil' jimi on December 14, 2005, at 11:24:21
In reply to Re: Patriot Act: Fascist Attack on our democracy, posted by lil' jimi on November 7, 2005, at 0:50:47
please help:
>> >
Hi,The White House is pressuring Congress to reauthorize a new version of the Patriot Act that is worse than the original law and doesn't include needed reforms. This could come before the Senate as soon as Thursday.
A bipartisan group of senators have agreed to fight the Patriot Act –by filibuster if necessary.
This is a huge moment. Senators from both parties are standing together to protect freedom and liberty --and they’re ready to fight. Can you sign this petition to show them and the rest of the Senate that you support filibustering this bad bill? The Patriot Act has to be stopped until it includes reforms.
http://political.moveon.org/patriotact/
Thanks!
>> > (end of letter from MoveOn.Org) < <<please?
http://political.moveon.org/patriotact/~ jim
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2005, at 12:53:24
In reply to Who should we fear more?, posted by lil' jimi on December 12, 2005, at 14:00:25
> with defenders like these, who needs terrorists?
Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings. The last time you were blocked it was for 2 weeks, so this time it's for 4.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by lil' jimi on March 18, 2006, at 20:30:21
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks » lil' jimi, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2005, at 12:53:24
on December 12th, 2005, I posted:
>>>
Please read these if your soul has the strength
... Pretty Please?:ACLU pushes for release of prison, torture documents
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/ACLU_pushes_for_release_of_prison_1212.htmlGovernment Documents on Torture
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq
http://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/gen/21236prs20051024.htmlACLU Motion on CIA Glomar Ruling
http://www.aclu.org/natsec/warpowers/22585lgl20051212.htm
http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file149_22585.pdf"Rendition"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10316560/Secret U.S. Laws
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_12/007745.phpand for further reference see:
Secrecy and Security News
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/12/index.html
...
Secret laws, Secret evidence, Secret trials, Secret prisons, Secret torture ...[... snip ...]
>>>
[[There was a time when these were the things the United States could accuse The Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China (and Nazi Germany) of;
When we as Americans could distinguish ourselves from the authoritarian/military dictatorships with these things.Not today.]]
>>>[...unsnip ...]
Folks, i feel it is pernicious and unconscionable that these facts have come to be part of United States over the last five years.
unfortunately, mr. cheney and his associates do Not feel that way ...
... ... and they are running our country.so who is the greater threat to civilization as we know it?
... or, at least, as we used to know it?Dick Cheney and his fundamentalist right wing supporters?
or Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda cronies?i'll be quiet now.
~ lil' jimi ... still on only 10mg of lexapro
p.s.
okay.
i'll admit it;
it is not a real choice ...
because they are both working hand-in-hand ...
aren't they?=== (end of snips) ===
>>>torture, any torture, is a moral issue.
it is a political one now only because partisans in power have chosen to insist that torture is not immoral.
it is now a political statement to say that those partisans are wrong.
both politically and morally.i believe they are wrong.
and immoral.
i believe it violates the u.s. constitution,
the geneva convention,
and both secular and religious faiths'
commandments for human decency.
Please see http://www.nrcat.org/i am trying to not violate our sanctions against incivility here.
i have failed before.
my current attempt at relating my personal views and the facts of the matter has been phrased to not hurt ick-day aney-chay's feelings.i hope no one got shot in the face.
~ jim (again)
P.S.
"Torture: It isn't just for Jesus anymore."
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 20, 2006, at 1:36:10
In reply to http://www.nrcat.org/, posted by lil' jimi on March 18, 2006, at 20:30:21
> unfortunately, mr. cheney and his associates ...
> ... ... are running our country.Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings. The last time you were blocked it was for 8 weeks, so this time it's for 16.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
> my current attempt at relating my personal views and the facts of the matter has been phrased to not hurt ick-day aney-chay's feelings.
It's not his feelings as much as those of people here who support him.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Declan on March 22, 2006, at 14:21:00
In reply to Re: blocked for 16 weeks » lil' jimi, posted by Dr. Bob on March 20, 2006, at 1:36:10
If you are going to quote the offending sections of posts, it would make sense that they were in some way offensive. What on earth is offensive to anyone about saying that 'Mr Cheney and his associates.. are running our country'? He's the VP, was democratically reelected. Surely he/they should be running the country. I guess it's something (slightly?) different. Like the links, which I must read.
Declan
Posted by Declan on March 22, 2006, at 23:20:04
In reply to Dr Bob????, posted by Declan on March 22, 2006, at 14:21:00
Perhaps I was hasty, I'd only read the reasons for the block, and I suppose I find it upsetting to see anyone blocked, but especially for (appearing to?) stand up for principles that I thought (wrongly no doubt) had been permanently decided 200 years ago (Voltaire).
Declan
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2006, at 7:33:12
In reply to Dr Bob????, posted by Declan on March 22, 2006, at 14:21:00
> What on earth is offensive to anyone about saying that 'Mr Cheney and his associates.. are running our country'?
I apologize, somehow I read it as "ruining", I'm really sorry about that.
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 10:16:20
In reply to Re: unblocked » lil' jimi, posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2006, at 7:33:12
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2006, at 10:17:57
In reply to Re: unblocked » lil' jimi, posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2006, at 7:33:12
Posted by Declan on March 24, 2006, at 16:56:45
In reply to Re: Thank you (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 10:16:20
Posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 20:56:33
In reply to Re: unblocked » lil' jimi, posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2006, at 7:33:12
> I apologize, somehow I read it as "ruining", I'm really sorry about that.
tee hee
priming effect...
Posted by special_k on April 3, 2006, at 21:37:59
In reply to Re: unblocked, posted by special_k on March 25, 2006, at 20:56:33
er...
when you 'unblock' someone...
might be nice to babblemail them a link to let 'em know.
'cause some people stomp away from their pooties in disgust and may not check the board for a while...and it would be nice for them to know they have been unblocked...
Posted by lil' jimi on May 7, 2006, at 9:27:55
In reply to Re: unblockings » special_k, posted by special_k on April 3, 2006, at 21:37:59
Thanks, sp. k!
and, like, that is so true!!
i have to clean up the coffee that got spewed out of my nose when i found all this.
but i'll be back to snark on this tread once i get it together.
~ who knew??
> er...
>
> when you 'unblock' someone...
> might be nice to babblemail them a link to let 'em know.
> 'cause some people stomp away from their pooties in disgust and may not check the board for a while...
>
> and it would be nice for them to know they have been unblocked...
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 8:21:42
In reply to Re: unblockings, posted by lil' jimi on May 7, 2006, at 9:27:55
:-)
nice to see ya
Posted by lil' jimi on September 24, 2006, at 22:38:04
In reply to Re: z's geneva convention topic, posted by lil' jimi on November 9, 2005, at 13:01:43
i am heartsick that my country would legalize torture.
my sense of personal outrage defies being civil.
but let me try.
to state the obvious: torturing human beings is never acceptable.
it is very sad to me that that does Not go without saying these days.Digby makes the case against "Unleashing the Beast" at
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_digbysblog_archive.html#115898810938213828James Carroll says it excellently at the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/18/judge_jury_and_torturer/
"Justice is measured in every society by how the worst malefactors are treated - the worst not only in culpability, but in capacity for general harm. The best way to combat terrorism is to wrap accused terrorists in the cloth of the law they would rip asunder. More important, to legalize the abuse of a class of prisoners is to prepare for the abuse of all."i am still heartsick.
i hope i have not been too uncivil.
i probably have.
i have a history of that here.
i offer my regrets if i have trespassed again.But in the Name of ALL that is Holy, It's TORTURE!!
i'll be quiet now.
take care,
~ jim
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Politics | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.