![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 94 to 118 of 123. Go back in thread:
Posted by Willful on January 6, 2011, at 0:01:02
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
To ou812: I've having trouble evaluating the basis for your statements about this board, a place where you seem not to have posted before, but where you say you have been "lurking for years" and about which you are now --also after having visited many other forums--thinking of writing an article on cyber-bullying. First of all, you don't give any basis in fact-- which ask for from others--for your claims of lurking, your familiarity with many other boards, or your expertise in cyber-bullying.
Your analysis of this board as having "Borderline/ Paranoid /Passive-Aggressive" qualities isn't very meaningful either as this board is not a person and doesn't have a psychology such as what you could ascribe to individuals. At least you would need some sort of discussion to show that that was a valid type of analysis before trying to offering it as some sort of independent view.
I don't see any evidence for your statements-- yet you seem to know quite a bit about individuals here. Why have you chosen suddenly after presumably noting other incidents of this type for years without being moved to post,, to post in this thread and to make the judgments about us that you've made?
I wanted to point out that Dr. Bob does not have a Phd, but is a medical doctor, a fact which you would know if you were doing careful research of any kind, and which is stated on virtually every main page of this forum.
It has been said in this thread that we shouldn't trust people that we don't know or know well, and I want to reiterate that we should recognize that none of us really do know one another, and we must therefore make our own judgments of what is or is not true or important here.
I also would like to say to everyone that I certainly am thinking of Phillipa as a human being. I'm not suggesting that she's a bad person. I don't consider myself to be bullying her or wish for her to be lynched, stoned, driven from our community or destroyed. I want that to be very very clear. And I don't believe that anyone here feels that way, or is treating her with inhumanity.
Willful
Posted by Solstice on January 6, 2011, at 0:32:54
In reply to Re: True meaning, posted by Willful on January 6, 2011, at 0:01:02
I, for one, appreciate your direct and skillful confrontation of this stuff, Willful. The judgment has bothered me, too. And further, I second your sentiment about Phillipa. She is a long-term valued member of the community that has valuable contributions to make. I think everyone genuinely wants everybody to play in the sandbox nicely - but in order to do that - community accountability is important.
Solstice
> To ou812: I've having trouble evaluating the basis for your statements about this board, a place where you seem not to have posted before, but where you say you have been "lurking for years" and about which you are now --also after having visited many other forums--thinking of writing an article on cyber-bullying. First of all, you don't give any basis in fact-- which ask for from others--for your claims of lurking, your familiarity with many other boards, or your expertise in cyber-bullying.
>
> Your analysis of this board as having "Borderline/ Paranoid /Passive-Aggressive" qualities isn't very meaningful either as this board is not a person and doesn't have a psychology such as what you could ascribe to individuals. At least you would need some sort of discussion to show that that was a valid type of analysis before trying to offering it as some sort of independent view.
>
> I don't see any evidence for your statements-- yet you seem to know quite a bit about individuals here. Why have you chosen suddenly after presumably noting other incidents of this type for years without being moved to post,, to post in this thread and to make the judgments about us that you've made?
>
> I wanted to point out that Dr. Bob does not have a Phd, but is a medical doctor, a fact which you would know if you were doing careful research of any kind, and which is stated on virtually every main page of this forum.
>
> It has been said in this thread that we shouldn't trust people that we don't know or know well, and I want to reiterate that we should recognize that none of us really do know one another, and we must therefore make our own judgments of what is or is not true or important here.
>
> I also would like to say to everyone that I certainly am thinking of Phillipa as a human being. I'm not suggesting that she's a bad person. I don't consider myself to be bullying her or wish for her to be lynched, stoned, driven from our community or destroyed. I want that to be very very clear. And I don't believe that anyone here feels that way, or is treating her with inhumanity.
>
>
> Willful
Posted by Maxime on January 6, 2011, at 12:11:11
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information » Maxime, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 23:30:50
>
> > That is very good advice. I would like to add that if you are using Babblemail to gossip about others, chances are that the content of the Babble Mail will be forwarded to person in question. I have received many a Babble Mail where gossip about me, was sent to me by the person who received it. It hurts.
>
> Maxime - I hope you have saved that stuff and will use it to make your case with Bob. There's nothing that speaks louder than factual evidence.
>
> SolsticeI still have the Babble Mails. I don't know why I keep them because they are old. At the time I passed on everything to Dr. Bob.
Maxime
Posted by jane d on January 6, 2011, at 23:38:30
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information » Solstice, posted by Maxime on January 6, 2011, at 12:11:11
This was a private dispute. That one party has tried to make a public one by claiming it's about general principles. It wasn't. I really thought that people would see thru that. I'm beyond disillusioned that so few did.
Does anyone else have a cow that's mysteriously sickened? Jump right in.
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 6:28:37
In reply to Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by jane d on January 6, 2011, at 23:38:30
> This was a private dispute. That one party has tried to make a public one by claiming it's about general principles. It wasn't. I really thought that people would see thru that. I'm beyond disillusioned that so few did.
>
> Does anyone else have a cow that's mysteriously sickened? Jump right in.When one of two parties has made public the alleged behaviors of the other by posting them or referring to them on the Internet, it is no longer a private matter, regardless of how desirable it might have been for the two parties to communicate privately. Here, we have one party accusing another of behavior that is deleterious to one or more people. It is not a matter of principle. It is a matter of hurt or harm.
I would not be so quick to suggest that to blame one party vindicates the other. I think this thread deserves to continue, but should perhaps become more focused on the general and less on the acts of named individuals. I don't usually use this phrase, but "it is what it is." This thread has had legs for specific reasons. I would like to know what they are. I don't believe that this is about pack mentality and bullying. I think it is more about hurt and fear.
Does anyone have the right to collect and publish information about another individual using any material found publicly on the Internet? No. However, this isn't about libel or kiddie porn. There is some serious debate over the Internet and its use as being subject to law. Is anything appearing on the Internet automatically copyrighted? These are interesting and materially important issues.
On Psycho-Babble, issues of privacy and anonymity predominate over those of legalities. For one to feel safe disclosing that they are mentally ill often depends on anonymity. I don't know whether or not there is a legal precedent to proscribe collecting words without publishing them. Let us assume for the moment that doing so is legal. Let us also assume that publishing this information is legal. Would it be desirable to discourage such behaviors when they arise on Psycho-Babble? Are acts of peer pressure desirable? Perhaps a more gentle general reminder of sorts can be issued by moderators from time to time within threads. It might even be included in the FAQs that privacy and anonymity is encouraged. I don't think it is imprudent to emphasize to the posting community the importance of privacy and why.
I have a few questions that I feel are important to answer. I offered suggestions based upon my current judgments. I doubt they are written on stone tablets somewhere.
1. Is it legal to collect and publish words that compromise the privacy and anonymity of an individual aside from libel?
2. Is it desirable to discourage such behavior using the written word as a means aside from libel?
3. Is it desirable to discourage such behavior using peer pressure as a means?
4. Is it desirable that moderators sanction an individual with posting blocks for such behavior?
5. Are posting blocks on a private website legal without sufficient due process?
Libel and due process are genuine concerns when a poster or moderator accuses an individual of a behavior whether it be legal or illegal.
I think the bottom line is that it is desirable to suggest to the community that privacy and anonymity are important to maintain in order to maintain the health and safety of Psycho-Babble. Moderators should not suggest that, or accuse any individual of a particular act, even when the words submitted by the poster are clearly libelous. This isn't a court of law.
The above suppositions indicate that posting blocks are undesirable, if not illegal.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 8:32:24
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 6:28:37
I do wonder why this is all being focused on one poster, though. In this very thread there have been allegations that a different poster forwarded not only information sent to them privately, but the entire private communications. There have been mentions, on this thread and others, of posters speaking off board in what would certainly seem to be a negative context of other posters. There has been mention of photos being sent to other posters. And in none of the cases I speak of was the poster responsible Phillipa.
I'm not on the receiving end of all that much gossip myself. But in my years of Babble I've received communications negative about other posters. I've received snippets of private communications. In no cases that I can recall did Phillipa do either of these things with me. The people communicating with me have been fortunate in their choice. I wouldn't dream of forwarding their communications to the party they were speaking about. Or to anyone else for that matter. I rather thought that was poor internet etiquette? Am I mistaken. Are there exemptions to the forwarding of private information rule?
I say negative things about Babblers off board. Heck, I consider that one of the functions of my civility buddies. I say things to them that I'd be blocked from here to Sunday for saying on board. I have a chance to vent feelings so that they don't explode on board. I have been fortunate in my civility buddies. None of them, to my knowledge, has passed on any information I've told them privately. In the past, perhaps the same period of time that people are referring to old posts of Phillipa, I may have been less judicious in what I've said about others. Over time I've tried to learn to be more generous of spirit. I try to grow and change. I wouldn't like to see posts from years back referring to me used as evidence that I must be guilty today of the same things.
Over the years, people have tried to tell me what negative things others were saying about me behind my back. I've asked that they not. That sort of thing isn't so unusual that I would want to destroy what relationship I have with a person by hearing gossip about what they said about me.
I'd like to ask Dr. Bob a question. If a poster sends to you copies of babblemails forwarded to them by another poster, will the poster originally forwarding those communications be sanctioned? I know it's uncivil to post private communications on board. Is it also uncivil *by board standards* to forward them to other Babblers?
I wonder, if those of us who were without sin were the only ones to cast stones, how many stones would be cast?
I wonder if Willful hasn't the right of it. Maybe the issue has more to do with the affect of the poster. I've read incidents of police abusing mentally ill patients because the affect they show seems wrong to the police. I don't know if it's true in real life, but cop shows tell us that if a person responds with the "wrong" affect to a crime, they are likely the guilty party. I've often suspected I'd be the first suspect in anything illegal that happened around me. I have OCD and an anxiety disorder. I tend to look guilty. My affect is, according to more than one mental health practitioner, flat. I don't think judging by the response of the accused is fair to those wired differently. I don't think it's fair to expect another person to react to shame and criticism with a response judged acceptable by the pack.
Scott is right. If this *must* be discussed, it oughtn't be discussed in terms of one babbler. I can tell you without doubt, both by testimony and confession, that there is more than one Babbler who says negative things about others off board. I have no basis to give testimony that Phillipa does these things. She has never done those things with me. You have been told in this thread, by Maxime, that a Babbler who is not Phillipa passes on information sent to them privately.
I don't want to hear justifications for making this about Phillipa. If the pack wants to attack anyone, I have just admitted to speaking negatively of other Babblers off board. I gossip. I haven't had my life made unbearable enough yet to stop my unruly behavior. Those of you without sin may chastise me freely. I show my soft underbelly.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/975935.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/975896.html
Posted by PartlyCloudy on January 7, 2011, at 9:35:00
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 8:32:24
OK, I'm not keeping quiet on this subject any longer.
Dinah, I speak for myself when I post, as I have on this particular subject. I am not speaking of pack behavior; I speak of individuals when I'm able to do so civilly, and try not to speak in conjecture. I believe that at least part of the reason this thread has taken a life of its own (or so it would seem) is because in spite of posts being reported correctly via the notification system, no timely response in any direction has been forthcoming.
In such a void, escalation is inevitably occurring. I don't characterize it as a police state treating one person as guilty because of their apparent behavior. There are real people here who have been affected by other's actions, and they are trying to make their anger, pain, and frustration heard in the most civil way possible.
pc
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 9:48:41
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » Dinah, posted by PartlyCloudy on January 7, 2011, at 9:35:00
There are indeed those who have been affected by the actions of others. I truly wish there had been a timely administrative response to this thread. We are united in assigning blame.
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 11:36:07
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » Dinah, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:20:30
I appreciate your kind words.
I had a long talk with my therapist and he was firm in his opinion that an infrequently moderated board is not a place that's healthy for me to be, given my strong reaction to feeling impotent in situations that remind me of other times I've been impotent. I agree with him. I spent Wednesday shaking and crying and getting no work done. I had an anxiety attack on Thursday. I'm having intrusive thoughts of a pack of dogs wearing white knee highs and pleated skirts. Circling, circling, teeth bared and gleaming... I'm afraid to close my eyes.
If I have courage, I hope I have the courage to walk away from a community I have called home for many years.
(He's ok with my posting on Psychology, as long as the posters there remain as lovely as they are. So I'm not being cut off entirely.)
Posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 14:17:10
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 6:28:37
Scott, you have more mental capacity and ability to analyze, process, conceptualize and compose in a state in which you have expressed you are impaired than I do when I am close to my highest function(I admit it is possible I may have never reached my potential to function). You must have a brilliant mind with much more capacity than the average or even many above average.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 19:48:07
In reply to Thank you gg, Scott and » ou812, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 11:36:07
> I had a long talk with my therapist and he was firm in his opinion that an infrequently moderated board is not a place that's healthy for me to be,
:-(
> given my strong reaction to feeling impotent in situations that remind me of other times I've been impotent. I agree with him.
:-(
> I spent Wednesday shaking and crying and getting no work done. I had an anxiety attack on Thursday. I'm having intrusive thoughts of a pack of dogs wearing white knee highs and pleated skirts. Circling, circling, teeth bared and gleaming... I'm afraid to close my eyes.
:-(
> If I have courage, I hope I have the courage to walk away from a community I have called home for many years.
:-)
I am sad to see you go, but I am glad to see you take positive and perhaps necessary steps to enhance your mental health. It will be easier for me to get over my sense of loss by knowing that you are experiencing a sense of gain.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on January 7, 2011, at 19:52:10
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » SLS, posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 14:17:10
> Scott, you have more mental capacity and ability to analyze, process, conceptualize and compose in a state in which you have expressed you are impaired than I do when I am close to my highest function(I admit it is possible I may have never reached my potential to function). You must have a brilliant mind with much more capacity than the average or even many above average.
>
> MorganMorgan, I have told him the same thing. I said I wonder what he would be able to do if he felt 100 percent. He would probably blow us away!
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 19:54:15
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » SLS, posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 14:17:10
> Scott, you have more mental capacity and ability to analyze, process, conceptualize and compose in a state in which you have expressed you are impaired than I do when I am close to my highest function(I admit it is possible I may have never reached my potential to function). You must have a brilliant mind with much more capacity than the average or even many above average.
:-)
How did YOU get to be so smart?
You don't know how vindicated I feel that you should say such a thing.
Thanks.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Glydin50 on January 7, 2011, at 20:06:07
In reply to Thank you gg, Scott and » ou812, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 11:36:07
I feel for all who have been negatively effected by situations that occur on the boards and as a result of offshoots that began on the boards. Make me feel quite sad. Disengaging, even to a small degree, helped me with prespective, a larger view and giving a proper realism to what immersion and triggering can do. That's just me.... But.... I learned participation and caring differ from immersion of a too deep variety.
I hope all can work thur their hurt and negative results and move on ......
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 20:58:35
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » morgan miller, posted by Maxime on January 7, 2011, at 19:52:10
> > Scott, you have more mental capacity and ability to analyze, process, conceptualize and compose in a state in which you have expressed you are impaired than I do when I am close to my highest function(I admit it is possible I may have never reached my potential to function). You must have a brilliant mind with much more capacity than the average or even many above average.
> >
> > Morgan
>
> Morgan, I have told him the same thing. I said I wonder what he would be able to do if he felt 100 percent. He would probably blow us away!I wish that I were smart enough to help all of us get to where we want to be.
Psycho-Babble is now deficient in what was once one of its greatest attributes - the synthesis of ideas. I offer the suggestion that the departure of those people who I believe contributed the most to this synthesis have left a vacuum behind them that has not since been filled. In my opinion, and at the risk of insulting a great many people, I feel that Psycho-Babble is no longer a robust nursery for the development of novel ideas and perspectives that could possibly benefit us all, even if only one at a time.
I feel that I am getting close to having had my fill of Psycho-Babble. Unfortunately, I have had very little else to fill my time and make the day go by more quickly. This is not meant to be a threat to the moderator or anyone else. However, I do hope that... Well, I just hope.
Seasons change. Whatever season it is that Psycho-Babble has entered no longer appeals to me, although it might be the best of climates for many others.
At the moment, I am not inclined to abandon the notion that Psycho-Babble may still have something to offer me, even if it only be the satisfaction of helping others. Fortunately, I believe that I still have much to learn from everyone else here. This belief leads me to still value this website. It is selfish of me to continue to hang around here.
I have come to view Psycho-Babble as having entered a new season, regardless of how gradually this change may have occurred. I guess that I have always favored Spring over Fall.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on January 7, 2011, at 23:20:03
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » SLS, posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 14:17:10
It's strange. I am on two support boards for people with eating disorders. There are moderators and each one has her own section to take care of. They make sure that people stick to the about not posting weights, suicide notes,numbers technical issues etc. We NEVER have the problems that we have here and the boards are bigger than psycho babble. I wonder why the difference? We all remain civil to each other. We are all hurting so much inside.
Posted by Maxime on January 7, 2011, at 23:31:04
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 20:58:35
I think I have also had my fill of PB. However, there are many people here I am close to. I believe that PB has become a bad habit for me. And my PDOC strongly recommends that I leave the site ... very strongly *waves to Dr. R!*
Posted by morgan miller on January 7, 2011, at 23:39:27
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by Maxime on January 7, 2011, at 23:20:03
Maxime, I hear what you are saying.
Sorry for temporarily interrupting the thread conversation.
Morgan
Posted by jane d on January 8, 2011, at 10:04:06
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 6:28:37
> > This was a private dispute. That one party has tried to make a public one by claiming it's about general principles. It wasn't. I really thought that people would see thru that. I'm beyond disillusioned that so few did.
> >
> > Does anyone else have a cow that's mysteriously sickened? Jump right in.
>
> When one of two parties has made public the alleged behaviors of the other by posting them or referring to them on the Internet, it is no longer a private matter, regardless of how desirable it might have been for the two parties to communicate privately. Here, we have one party accusing another of behavior that is deleterious to one or more people. It is not a matter of principle. It is a matter of hurt or harm.
>
> I would not be so quick to suggest that to blame one party vindicates the other. I think this thread deserves to continue, but should perhaps become more focused on the general and less on the acts of named individuals. I don't usually use this phrase, but "it is what it is." This thread has had legs for specific reasons. I would like to know what they are. I don't believe that this is about pack mentality and bullying. I think it is more about hurt and fear.I agree there are general issues. I've replied to those in a new thread here which I hope is allowed to stay separate and I hope remains general. It's here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/976183.html
Neither hurt nor fear excuse everything. The witch hunts in my allusion were carried out by people who were afraid. And in some accounts people with personal grudges used the fear of others to settle those grudges. Terrible things are done by people who are afraid.I thought pack mentality was a kind interpretation of what's been going on. It presumes, as I would very much like to, that the individuals would have acted very differently if they'd been acting as individuals. You can often trust an individual dog with a cat or a child but not be able to trust the same dog once it's become part of a pack. Dog packs can be very scary. It may be a human tendency too but it's definitely humans at their worst.
I'm still disillusioned.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on January 8, 2011, at 10:57:39
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » SLS, posted by jane d on January 8, 2011, at 10:04:06
> I thought pack mentality was a kind interpretation of what's been going on. It presumes, as I would very much like to, that the individuals would have acted very differently if they'd been acting as individuals. You can often trust an individual dog with a cat or a child but not be able to trust the same dog once it's become part of a pack. Dog packs can be very scary. It may be a human tendency too but it's definitely humans at their worst.
>
> I'm still disillusioned....and I'm still not happy as being characterized as exhibiting pack mentality! Really.
Posted by SLS on January 8, 2011, at 13:49:41
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » SLS, posted by jane d on January 8, 2011, at 10:04:06
> Neither hurt nor fear excuse everything.
Are you merely looking to ascribe blame, or are you seeking understanding? Explanations are not excuses.
> The witch hunts in my allusion were carried out by people who were afraid.
Yes.
> And in some accounts people with personal grudges used the fear of others to settle those grudges.
Yes.
> Terrible things are done by people who are afraid.
This is EXACTLY why this thread deserves consideration. Allowing it to continue might produce discoveries for the individual regarding how their behaviors affect the group and how those of the group affect the individual. Understanding the dynamics of the interactions occurring on this website might yield change. Hopefully, these changes will enhance the lives of the individuals participating along threads like this one.
> Dog packs can be very scary. It may be a human tendency too but it's definitely humans at their worst.
>
> I'm still disillusioned.If it has been your illusion in the past that human tendencies are those of pack animals, how can you possibly be disillusioned now? Have you placed all of us here upon separate pedestals? Why should you hold the posters of Psycho-Babble to a higher (different) standard than those who you witnessed in the past as being pack animals?
Instead of declaring yourself as being disillusioned, a phrase that to me seems pejorative, perhaps you can detail your observations and conclusions without assigning blame to humans for being human.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on January 8, 2011, at 17:21:50
In reply to Re: public forum, posted by violette on January 4, 2011, at 22:41:48
>this refusal to delete posts written here that came back to haunt people a decade later....
This is by far the most worrying feature of p-babble for me. All other forums which I post on allow posters to modify or delete their posts.
Posted by Maxime on January 8, 2011, at 23:38:21
In reply to Re: public forum » violette, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 8, 2011, at 17:21:50
> >this refusal to delete posts written here that came back to haunt people a decade later....
>
> This is by far the most worrying feature of p-babble for me. All other forums which I post on allow posters to modify or delete their posts.Exactly. Or, if not, you can always get a moderator to quickly delete it. But not here.
Posted by violette on January 8, 2011, at 23:59:28
In reply to Re: public forum » violette, posted by ed_uk2010 on January 8, 2011, at 17:21:50
Ed, you seem to be much more emotionally together than I am. I posted here while experiencing hypo/mania, dissociative states, psychosis-and was horrified when I came back here and saw what I had written while in those affective states, and the responses.
I asked Dr. Bob repeatedly to delete those posts but he would not.
Posted by violette on January 9, 2011, at 0:06:59
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread » SLS, posted by jane d on January 8, 2011, at 10:04:06
Well Jane, after all the concerns repeatedly addressed to Phillipa - I have never seen her come here to reassure people that she would take our privacy concerns seriuosly. If i missed her posts, please correct me.
Soemtimes I wonder if people are projecting their own issues on her situation. People use projection all the time, I do/have done it too.
Overall, the conerns have to be addressed publicly. When gossip is started, inaccurate information is passed around privately - how are you supposed to address these things privately, when you don't know all the members who are involved in the private discussions? What are people supposed to do-babblemail every member here and ask them privately?
Go forward in thread:
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