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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 18:14:41
In reply to I disagree, » verne, posted by crazy teresa on October 16, 2005, at 17:47:40
I am trying to stay out of this conversation because it is consuming too much of my thought, but something is really bothering me.
I feel that Scambuster is trying to find some hidden and personal motive for me and others here (who may at this point be afraid to speak up, since I'm afraid the atmosphere has become too hostile rather than supportive) who feel intervention might be in order to keep her safe.
He seems to have latched on to my comment in an earlier post:
> I think if she learns there are consequences to this, she might have to learn another way to deal with her frustrations.
...and is using it repeatedly to mean that I wanted to teach Deneb a lesson to make her conform to our rules.
This is WRONG. I meant that if there were consequences to threatening suicide, she might have to learn and GROW and GET HEALTHIER.
I want Scambuster to stop using his/her misunderstanding of my words in his/her posts.
Posted by verne on October 16, 2005, at 18:34:14
In reply to Re: From the Hip Diagnosis, posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 17:43:48
It's funny, Declan, but I was thinking of Oscar Wilde earlier. I haven't read him for a long time but remember how well he understood the use of language, what's really being said.
I don't read much anymore but he made a lasting impression. (I'm still adjusting to reading glasses and can't quite get comfortable)
Meanwhile, I'm hoping to put a blanket over the TV, put a nativity scene on top, and call it an early Christmas.
Verne
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 18:35:59
In reply to Re: I disagree, » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 17:55:54
> I meant that if there were consequences to threatening suicide, she might have to learn and GROW and GET HEALTHIER.
And 'growing' and 'getting healthier' would mean what exactly?
There is not adequate evidence to show that intervention assists one 'grow' and / or 'get healthier'.
There is also some evidence to show that intervention can be harmful.
If by getting healthier you mean stopping 'threatening suicide' or posting about suicide on these boards. Stopping thinking about suicide. then you might want to think about how these may well be things that you value, yet they might not eb things that Deneb and others value.
Deneb has said that she doesn't want anyone to interveane.
Do you presume to know what is better for her than she does?
If your concern is for Deneb...
Then how about posting to her and being her friend.
Accepting who she is
And not trying to modify her behaviour so that it conforms to other peoples values....
Posted by Nickengland on October 16, 2005, at 18:45:38
In reply to Re: I disagree, » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 17:55:54
Just to ease confusion.
I offered a link to a website, no more no less.
If you check out the meds board now and then you will read suggestions of diagnosis flying about, suggestions of medications, all kinds of things, they're seen as supportive, no one says otherwise and in many ways people are asking, helping etc..
I don't even give that kind of advice out (although I may have rarely) eg - you might want to take X drug. You might want to consider a bipolar aspect.
Only a doctor can diagnosis and not from the internet. Anyone can *suggest* I even said in my orignal post where I put the link - i am "not" suggesting.
Perhaps Scambuster is perfectly healthy (mentally) then like some other people, they say "you dont need drugs etc" there was a recent thread on the meds board about this. I'm not diagnosing Scambuster to be mentally healthy or unhealthly, just putting a link down.
Hope that helpsNick
Posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 19:03:06
In reply to It was just a link » alexandra_k, posted by Nickengland on October 16, 2005, at 18:45:38
I don't think we should be questioning each others motives.
None of our motives are too bad, beyond the desire for a bit of a stoush perhaps.
Some of the intelligent observations made might have been put in such a way as to question integrity or somesuch.
But what has been said is most interesting read in an impersonal way, although of course people who are feeling defensive have their reasons.
There's no reason why this conversation should have to go into a tailspin, is there?
Declan
Posted by Nickengland on October 16, 2005, at 19:17:36
In reply to Re: It was just a link, posted by Declan on October 16, 2005, at 19:03:06
G'day Declan
>There's no reason why this conversation should have to go into a tailspin, is there?
I agree :-)
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 19:43:17
In reply to Re: I disagree, » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 18:35:59
> > I meant that if there were consequences to threatening suicide, she might have to learn and GROW and GET HEALTHIER.
>
> And 'growing' and 'getting healthier' would mean what exactly?I meant find other alternatives to pain than threatening or attempting suicide...like finding therapy...or asking for help...or getting help...
>
> There is not adequate evidence to show that intervention assists one 'grow' and / or 'get healthier'.
>
> There is also some evidence to show that intervention can be harmful.I didn't stop to contemplate the 'adequate evidence' when I pointed Dr Bob in the direction of Deneb's thread. I saw a person in danger and thought it might be good to get her help.
>
> If by getting healthier you mean stopping 'threatening suicide' or posting about suicide on these boards. Stopping thinking about suicide. then you might want to think about how these may well be things that you value, yet they might not eb things that Deneb and others value.???Could you explain to me what you mean by this? That others don't want to stop thinking about suicide? That some people threaten suicide and want to continue to keep doing so? This is news to me if that is what you are saying. I thought that being suicidal was a state of anguish that all or most of us wanted to be out of. Maybe I am wrong.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 19:55:21
In reply to Re: I disagree, » alexandra_k, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 19:43:17
> ???Could you explain to me what you mean by this? That others don't want to stop thinking about suicide? That some people threaten suicide and want to continue to keep doing so? This is news to me if that is what you are saying. I thought that being suicidal was a state of anguish that all or most of us wanted to be out of. Maybe I am wrong.
I'm making the same point that scam made before (or at least I'm reiterating the point as I understand it).
Deneb posts about her thoughts on death and her desire to be dead at times.
We are all going to die one day.
You seem to think that it would be better for her to stop posting about these things.
Better for her, or in line with how other people here prefer her to behave?
I think it may well be worthwhile to post about things like that.
I mean... We are all going to die one day.
Who is to say that one way of behaving is healthier than another?
Who is to say that one way of thinking is healthier than another?
What seemed to upset Deneb the most...
Was posters responding to her feelings / thoughts / perceptions
By invalidating them.
By instructing her to do things THEY wanted / valued.
And the ultimate goal... seems to be to have silenced her.Thats what I mean about values.
I value honest expression
Over modifying behaviour that makes other people feel uncomfortable.In your world view...
According to your values...Am I very bad for that?
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 20:17:14
In reply to Re: I disagree, » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 19:55:21
> Deneb posts about her thoughts on death and her desire to be dead at times.
>
> We are all going to die one day.
>
> You seem to think that it would be better for her to stop posting about these things.
Well, careful with words, because I don't think it would be better for her to stop posting things like that. I don't want her to stop posting about anything, I just thought she was asking for help. I'm really sad that she's been blocked and she can't talk here right now. That's really scary and I'm hoping she has someone to help her right now.Would you argue against that??? That she would be best off getting help? We can go back and forth about this until we are blue in the face, but I don't understand the point anymore. Any way I look at it, I still come to the conclusion that a suicidal person needs help. Am I forcing my worldview on that person? I guess I am, but with the intention of easing their pain.
>
> I value honest expression
> Over modifying behaviour that makes other people feel uncomfortable.
>
> In your world view...
> According to your values...
>
> Am I very bad for that?Perhaps the thing we are talking about is the word 'help'. What does it mean to help? Is everyone here asking for help? Is Deneb asking for help? What kind of help is she asking for, what kind does she need?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 20:39:42
In reply to Re: I disagree,, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 20:17:14
> > Deneb posts about her thoughts on death and her desire to be dead at times.
> > We are all going to die one day.
> > You seem to think that it would be better for her to stop posting about these things.
> Well, careful with words, because I don't think it would be better for her to stop posting things like that.I agree. If it helps her to post her thoughts / questions about that then it seems that it is a worthwhile thing to do.
> I don't want her to stop posting about anything, I just thought she was asking for help.
I think... She was asking for some validation and reassurance. When you 'threatened' suicide you may have meant it as a cry for help. But that doesn't mean that when everybody talks about suicide they mean it as a cry for help.
You asked whether it might be appropriate to interveane
(Which seems to be a reasonable question to me)
And then she posted a direct request that people not interveane directly.She clarified her intention there.
To continue on saying that intervention should be sent DESPITE her direct request seems to imply that other people may know what is best for her.
> I'm really sad that she's been blocked and she can't talk here right now. That's really scary and I'm hoping she has someone to help her right now.
I didn't know she had been blocked :-(
Can someone give me a link?I think she could use a little support / care / understanding...
I hope people have her email address...
> Would you argue against that??? That she would be best off getting help? We can go back and forth about this until we are blue in the face, but I don't understand the point anymore.I've reiterated the point.
It is a hard point, I appreciate that.
I had to think about it fairly long and hard...>Any way I look at it, I still come to the conclusion that a suicidal person needs help. Am I forcing my worldview on that person? I guess I am, but with the intention of easing their pain.
If your intention is to ease their pain...
Then it might be wise to look at what we know about how much involountary hospitalisation assists alleviating peoples pain.
There are people (like yourself) with positive anecdotes...
But once you take all the other people into account...
Once you take the potential harm into account...Then what do you think your considered view is on what is most likely to ease her pain?
Personally... I don't know. But I think sometimes what people most need... Is an empathetic friend. Babblers have done more for me than the majority of mental health professionals in my life. But just like the majority of mental health professionals... Babblers are capable of harm as well :-(
> Perhaps the thing we are talking about is the word 'help'. What does it mean to help? Is everyone here asking for help? Is Deneb asking for help? What kind of help is she asking for, what kind does she need?Why not...
Ask her?Most people like to feel that other people are empathising with them and value them rather than trying to 'do things to them' (ie interveane) at the very least...
Posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 21:09:34
In reply to Re: I disagree, » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 20:39:42
Here is the link to Deneb's being blocked:http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051015/msgs/567834.html
> Then it might be wise to look at what we know about how much involountary hospitalisation assists alleviating peoples pain.
True, I see your point about that. That is definitely something I will have to think about.
> What kind of help is she asking for, what kind does she need?
> Why not...
> Ask her?
> Most people like to feel that other people are empathising with them and value them rather than trying to 'do things to them' (ie interveane) at the very least...
True.............and I would like to ask her what kind of help she is looking for.
> She's just such a complex person, asking for advice, yet not really taking any, screaming out again and again that she was in pain. It's unnerving to sit and watch it. I don't know how to deal with that. That's MY issue. I tried to talk with her, tried to empathize, and usually that helps with people. That thread got longer and longer, more and more people trying to help...and it just got worse. Then there were the threats. At that point, did anyone know what to do?Thanks for chatting with me Alexandra, I can see many points here, I'm really just left with a sad feeling that Deneb just got lost and we've all been arguing. Good points have been made and maybe we've all learned from it, but poor Deneb.
>
Posted by 10derHeart on October 16, 2005, at 21:12:57
In reply to Re: I disagree, » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 20:39:42
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051015/msgs/567834.html
Alex, if you do have her email address, and if she agrees, could you Babblemail it to me? Tell her I'd like to keep in touch from time to time during her block if she'd like. I'm worried and I care about her.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 21:26:44
In reply to Link to Deneb's block » alexandra_k, posted by 10derHeart on October 16, 2005, at 21:12:57
> Alex, if you do have her email address, and if she agrees, could you Babblemail it to me? Tell her I'd like to keep in touch from time to time during her block if she'd like. I'm worried and I care about her.If people are happy to Babblemail me their email addresses I am happy to pass them on.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 16, 2005, at 21:45:05
In reply to Re: I disagree, » alexandra_k, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 21:09:34
you couldn't see the thread escalating?
i could.
i went away for a day and when i had come back...
it appeared that all hell had broken loose.
sometimes empathy can get lost
when people believe they know what is righti do this sometimes
i do
Posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 14:06:08
In reply to Re: I disagree, » alexandra_k, posted by holymama on October 16, 2005, at 21:09:34
hello. i don't know that we have talked before the discussion on this thread...
i want to apologise. i think you were given a fairly hard time of it, and not just by scam.
you asked a reasonable question because you were concerned for someones welfare. and then got... jumped on rather. your defence for your pov was admirable. i'm sorry that i wasn't more sensitive to your point of view and to your feelings.
sometimes a few appropriately placed words of kindness can go a long way.
i think...
people did the best they knew how to do to talk to her and try to help her.
i apologise most sincerely for anything i have said to the contrary.
sometimes it can be really very hard to know what to do...
and i feel this sometimes...
and so you would think that i should know better than to jump on people.thanks for this thread.
i apologise for anything i may have said that hurt you or resulted in your feeling invalidated.if i were you...
and someone posted what i posted to you to me...
i would be feeling more than a little indignant / frustrated.i apologise.
Posted by holymama on October 17, 2005, at 15:22:33
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 14:06:08
Hi alexandra,
I don't think we have talked before this thread. What an introduction to eachother! :)
Thank you for your really kind and humble words. That means a great amount to me.
I too am sorry if anyhting I said was out of line and hurt you, or anyone else for that matter. Although I was trying to keep a cool head, I know that during parts of this thread I was battling some really angry and defensive feelings. I'm sure it didn't come out as rationally as I would write otherwise.
Plus, I felt stuck into defending a position I wasn't too sure of taking on...
Anyway, thank you so much for your last post. I had been feeling kind of hurt -- not especially by you, but by the whole situation in general. I do feel better.
The whole experience is making me think a lot more about 'helping' someone...that's a good thing. Hopefully more of our future discussions can be made in less heated atmospheres.
~~Autumn~`
Posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 15:51:45
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » alexandra_k, posted by holymama on October 17, 2005, at 15:22:33
> Thank you for your really kind and humble words. That means a great amount to me.
You gave me a lot of kind and humble words during the thread and I ignored them to continue with unemotive discussion.
But those words meant a great deal to me and they were probably what... Prevented me from feeling hurt or anything with you. I am so very sorry I did not respond in kind as the thread was progressing.
> Although I was trying to keep a cool head, I know that during parts of this thread I was battling some really angry and defensive feelings.Me too.
But then I managed to convince myself... They were solely of my own making.
> Plus, I felt stuck into defending a position I wasn't too sure of taking on...Yes. I don't think we were really talked to...
Rather we were talked at in the interests of making a point. We were platforms which were used so that someone else could springboard their ideas off of us. I do think... That one of the charges that was made... About how we ignored Deneb's humanity... I do think that that is what this poster did to us. He / She wasn't so interested in what we had to say...
As in making their points.
> Anyway, thank you so much for your last post. I had been feeling kind of hurt -- not especially by you, but by the whole situation in general. I do feel better.You are welcome.
I feel... Pretty messed up at the moment, truth be told. I need to do some hard thinking... But I also have a lot of work to do at the moment so I'll have to put that on hold.> The whole experience is making me think a lot more about 'helping' someone...that's a good thing. Hopefully more of our future discussions can be made in less heated atmospheres.
Yes. I do hope our future discussions are made in more supportive atmospheres.
I'm not sure what I think anymore...
I think that what I need to do...
Is put all of my present beliefs on hold...
And lock myself away somewhere...
To think them through
And figure out just what I do believe.Like Descartes...
But...
I don't think that will help.Reason and Emotion
The Trouble that Can Occur...
When the later is sacrified
for the formerthanks for not holding this against me.
Posted by henrietta on October 17, 2005, at 20:17:27
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 15:51:45
Alex---you are so incredible. You think, reason, feel, challenge, explore, and then go back and re-examine yourself. You live the counselling you offer. You walk the talk. God, I admire you!!!
hen
Posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 20:36:08
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » alexandra_k, posted by henrietta on October 17, 2005, at 20:17:27
thank you. that means a lot.
i'm glad you are still here :-)
Posted by gardenergirl on October 17, 2005, at 23:32:30
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » henrietta, posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 20:36:08
Hi verne,
GG here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.A post of yours on this thread was deleted as it was a reply to a post that also was deleted.
Just wanted to let you know in case you wondered what happened to it.
Regards,
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2005, at 21:09:04
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » holymama, posted by alexandra_k on October 17, 2005, at 15:51:45
> Yes. I don't think we were really talked to...
Rather we were talked at in the interests of making a point. We were platforms which were used so that someone else could springboard their ideas off of us. I do think... That one of the charges that was made... About how we ignored Deneb's humanity... I do think that that is what this poster did to us. He / She wasn't so interested in what we had to say... As in making their points.though i should also add that in some instances civil disobedience may well be justified and that given the serious nature of the topic (the initial reason for the posts - involountary hospitalisation)... this may well be one of those cases...
and in such circumstances... how people feel about what is said is... something of a side issue.
but with respect to maintaining order and a supportive atmosphere...
well. that is something of a side issue too.
i have heard some discussion around socrates... whether it would have been possible for him to have made his points and shown people that they didn't know as much as they think they did WITHOUT enraging / frustrating them so...
or whether he needed to to what he did in order to be heard.i'm not sure...
maybe... he did need to matyr himself.still thinking...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2005, at 21:16:02
In reply to Re: the point, posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2005, at 21:09:04
i value meaningful connections to other people.
for me... they help me feel / believe that my life is worth living. i suppose that is why... i choose to be empathetic. because other people being empathetic towards me is something that i find meaningful and it helps give me the strength to continue when without that support i don't think i would be able to.and so i suppose... i want to live.
i want to live a meaningful life.
and i find emotional connections to be meaningful.but there are other things that i value too.
and sometimes it can be hard to figure out what should take priority.
Posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 22:38:09
In reply to Re: what i value, posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2005, at 21:16:02
Coming from a lack of self and emptiness, I guess I can't offer advice, except that,
please don't let the group sway you, and bully you, into what's politically correct. The DrBoB inside crowd has an influence of its own, a dynamic that drags us all down.
Please get your emotional support from REAL people. I think this is a great site but not a good support group.
If anyone dares to be sincere, there's usually an uproar. Scambuster, "so", whatever the name, is banned yet the mob that claimed he was "anti-social" is given a free pass. I guess that's not a "put down".
Where's the integrity? By the way, I don't know Scambuster, "so" or maryk. But whoever they are, they are REAL
Verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2005, at 4:06:51
In reply to Re: what i value » alexandra_k, posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 22:38:09
> The DrBoB inside crowd has an influence of its own, a dynamic that drags us all down.
First, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
It tends to be more civil to talk about how you feel than what others do, for example, by using I-statements. Do you feel like an outsider here?
> please don't let the group sway you, and bully you, into what's politically correct.
Please don't let others bully you into what's politically incorrect, either?
> Please get your emotional support from REAL people.
>
> I don't know Scambuster, "so" or maryk. But whoever they are, they are REALEveryone here is a real person!
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by verne on October 19, 2005, at 4:43:19
In reply to Re: please be civil » verne, posted by Dr. Bob on October 19, 2005, at 4:06:51
I'm not certain about what's real.
Perhaps the gap between the cyberhug and real hug is not easily bridged. Sort of like the Russians and Americans converging on the River Elbe at the end of World War II, with the fleeing Germans inbetween.
You ask whether I feel like an "outsider" here. I do.
When I suggested that some posters are more "real" than others, I now realize I was mistaken.
Nevertheless, I yearn for a kind of integrity and honesty of language, heart, and soul, evinced by "ScamBuster", "So", or "Previously Known As"... I would venture he's more geniune or real, yet I don't want to diminish anyone else's experience, "realness", or value.
Bear with me as I explore this.
Verne
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