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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sabina on June 13, 2005, at 14:18:49
In reply to So's request for Robert Hsiung -- prbtnry.prd, posted by so on June 11, 2005, at 19:14:34
Wowza. What an amount of speculation over one small word, written simply to denote that I was laughing when I wrote my post, while so's original post has gone entirely by the wayside. I sincerely hope that Dr. Bob does reply with a sufficient answer. I wasn't going to reply to this thread again, but I want to make certain that my motives aren't called into question - either directly or indirectly. Not many people here know me now, so I don't wish to be misunderstood. Sorry I didn't get back to possibly head this off sooner.
Before I disappear again for an interminable span, allow me to *clarify* for anyone who feels that I may have misused the Admin board, that I have not "made digs" at anyone or cast aspersions on any other possible "negative" usages of the word *snort*. Sorry, but I don't see why I can't laugh while making a humorous, yet valid, point on an Admin thread. I simply found amusing, as I would think any long time poster here would do, the concept that PBC's and blocks will *ever* be equitably distributed: e.g. Zen, for openers. It gave me more than a chuckle...the kind where you're breathing doesn't go quite right and you kind of...snort. That's *all*. The gist of my post - the entire post - was my way of saying to so, Dr. Bob, and whomever: Yeah, we've *all* been down this road a few times before. I'm not the only one who feels that his PBC and blocking practices are beyond the pale of subjectivity.
Most recent anomaly? Pax comes back from a *year* long block only to get blocked for another year with no PBC or Please Rephrase whatsoever. All this, while CutieMcSweetie (made up name and scenario) receives PBC after PBC with no block? Mind you, I don't want *anyone* blocked who will take the opportunity to rephrase and/or apologize. I honestly didn't think my post was obtuse *or* offensive, and didn't expect any commentary or acknowledgment whatsoever.
If anything, I made the same point that's been made time and time again; only this time I was laughing about the subject matter instead of letting it get to me. Guess what? I think that's a step in the right direction, considering that last year I was all in a strop about it. I was fairly angry at Dr. Bob over a particular situation. Now I've accepted that Dr. Bob is making the only decisions he knows how to make. Am I required to understand or agree with his reasoning? No. Can I say so? Because he graciously provides this forum, then yes. Am I allowed to say I'm laughing when I write my comment? We'll see. ;-)
Meanwhile, I'm off to go swimming. Take care, everyone.
P.S. Hi Gabbi!
Posted by Minnie-Haha on June 13, 2005, at 14:46:50
In reply to Re: snort, posted by Sabina on June 13, 2005, at 14:18:49
And I really wasn't talking about your snort in particular. I've just noticed the usage in general is a little shady sometimes.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 13, 2005, at 15:07:30
In reply to Re: So's request for Robert Hsiung -- prbtnry.prd » Sabina, posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 14:52:31
I didn't think that was directed at you. Sabina's not petty like that.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 13, 2005, at 15:13:50
In reply to Re: So's request for Robert Hsiung -- prbtnry.prd » so, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 13, 2005, at 15:07:30
> I didn't think that was directed at you. Sabina's not petty like that.
I wasn't insinuating that anyone thought she was being that way, it's what I would have thought though, if it had been directed at a posters questions.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 13, 2005, at 15:15:36
In reply to Re: snort, posted by Sabina on June 13, 2005, at 14:18:49
> Wowza. What an amount of speculation over one small word.
Such a woman of mystery that a mere snort from her is pondered at length :)
HI Bina
Have a good swim!
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 13, 2005, at 15:19:26
In reply to Re: Thanks for the explanation... » Sabina, posted by Minnie-Haha on June 13, 2005, at 14:46:50
> And I really wasn't talking about your snort in particular. I've just noticed the usage in general is a little shady sometimes.
Yeah, I think that's true of any of the emoticons, or little expressions, that's why I'm always screaming "My smilies are always sincere"
I've often seen them placed after comments that seemed barbed to me, and wondered if they were sarcastic.>
>
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 13, 2005, at 20:42:31
In reply to Re: snort, posted by Sabina on June 13, 2005, at 14:18:49
I really like that subject heading and want to keep it going..
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2005, at 1:22:01
In reply to Re: snort, posted by Sabina on June 13, 2005, at 14:18:49
> It seems nowhere in the FAQ do you detail your system of escalating sanctions
>
> so> Yeah, Dr. Bob, why don't you publish your plenary civility spreadsheet for us
I do think a spreadsheet would be nice. Even if we didn't all agree on it 100%. Would someone like to propose one?
> I made the same point that's been made time and time again; only this time I was laughing about the subject matter instead of letting it get to me. Guess what? I think that's a step in the right direction, considering that last year I was all in a strop about it.
>
> SabinaI'm biased, of course, but good work! Could you comment on what enabled you to take that step?
Bob
Posted by so on June 14, 2005, at 11:34:50
In reply to Re: step in the right direction, posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2005, at 1:22:01
> I do think a spreadsheet would be nice. Even if we didn't all agree on it 100%. Would someone like to propose one?
I have one, but it is in the developmental stages. When I release it, it will be GNU licensed so you will be free to download it. As I have developed it as a research tool, it reflects decisions about phrases common to this site, so if you use it, it will be well tuned to this site. I've found little difficulty in classifying isolated phrases, but I have encountered some problems characterizing reasons similar statements are treated one way one time and another way other times. I'm working on secondary algorithms that could measure the extent to which such decisions might be based on member standing or participation, but I have yet found no basis for a standard I can describe in terms that can be compiled into machine language.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 0:39:59
In reply to Re: step in the right direction, posted by so on June 14, 2005, at 11:34:50
> I have yet found no basis for a standard I can describe in terms that can be compiled into machine language.
That's the sticky wicket...
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 2:50:12
In reply to Re: step in the right direction, posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 0:39:59
Since Gabbi again has me pegged (thanks, dear), and she is correct, for the record: I do snort when I laugh. Just ask All Done. She got to see and hear it live and in person.
And I tend to laugh a lot. I've got mood reactivity. And holes in my brain to GG filter, so when I find something funny, I usually laugh and/or snort. Sometimes I chuckle, giggle, or guffaw. Tee hee, hee hee, ha ha, etc. are also fair game when I am laughing. I think laughing is one of my better habits.
Oh, and I cry when I laugh. Profusely. Anyone know a good waterproof mascara?
gg
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 15, 2005, at 3:27:27
In reply to Snorting for the record...by GG, posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 2:50:12
Sorry for speaking for you. I wouldn't have, but I knew you were away, and I didn't want Minnie's feelings to to be hurt for days.
I hope it's okay.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 4:13:35
In reply to Re: Snorting for the record...by GG » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 15, 2005, at 3:27:27
I appreciated it! And you were right both times. Thanks for doing that. :)
But don't you think my subject line is kinda funny? That was half the fun of my post.
gg
Posted by Sabina on June 15, 2005, at 8:46:41
In reply to Re: step in the right direction, posted by Dr. Bob on June 14, 2005, at 1:22:01
>> I do think a spreadsheet would be nice. Even if we didn't all agree on it 100%. Would someone like to propose one?
I'd love to propose that you PBC everyone *before* blocking them and that even the simplest of spreadsheets would suffice to keep track of posters and their infractions over time. Once you've made the decision to PBC or block and gone to the trouble of posting it, why not take it a step further and note the information in Excel? I think you might be surprised at the number of people that receive repeated warnings but nary a block while others do not seem to benefit from such leniency. It might actually be an eye opener for you over time. I'm *hoping* it will be the type of eye opening that might lead to more "Please rephrases" and opportunities for apologies on the board. Allow those of us who care to discourse in an adult manner the time to come to a conclusion or agree to disagree instead of sitting in the corner for...a year.
> I'm biased, of course, but good work! Could you comment on what enabled you to take that step?
Thanks! I've worked reallllly hard on myself over the past year to cultivate a positive outlook on life regardless of how bad things got. Regardless of how goofy it sounds, I thought, By God, I *will* be happy! I had to do something because I didn't want to end up a suicide. I still do all the normal stuff: eat well, exercise, take my meds, and keep busy with my work and hobbies...even when I don't feel like it.
But *exactly* why am I not angry at you anymore when I read the Admin board? I think it's because I am happier and not in as much physical and emotional pain. (I'm finally taking pain meds for my back and FMS now and it's made a world of difference.) I kind of feel like, Yeah, that block sucks, but it's no global tragedy. Everything seems to hurt us more, upset us more, the more we ourselves are hurting; and I think that can be the case online, too. It was for me, anyway. Now that I feel so much better, I'm not bothered so much by what I read, hear, or see. Then again, I'm extremely selective about what I read, hear, or see. I focus on the positive, for my own sake and safety.
I think there's always room for improvement here and you seem open to that, even though progress comes slowly, slowly. I do hope you will begin keeping track of your civility warnings and blocks in future, at least for your own edification. The other thing that I think would calm down the Admin board considerably is the confidential Report this Post button for the entire site. I know there was a thread about it at one point and I think it's a great idea. People whose posts are reported don't have to feel singled out and accused and there aren't Admin escalations and fallout to mop up. I dunno. My opinion.
re: my "global tragedy" comment:To anyone other than Dr. Bob reading this: I'm not at *all* saying that getting angry about Admin stuff isn't justified or belittling these issues, so please don't be offended. They are important to me, too, as I've posted on many occasions over the past few years. I'm only speaking for myself in that I now have my personal emotional priorities more balanced now, where it had been a problem for me in the past.
Posted by Tabitha on June 15, 2005, at 12:40:07
In reply to Re: step in the right direction » Dr. Bob, posted by Sabina on June 15, 2005, at 8:46:41
That's really good news, Bina. I'm so glad to hear you're feeling so much better physically and emotionally.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 15, 2005, at 16:05:06
In reply to Re: step in the right direction, posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2005, at 0:39:59
> > I have yet found no basis for a standard I can describe in terms that can be compiled into machine language.
> That's the sticky wicket...You could bypass the programming issue if you had yourself a big enough (PDP) / connectionist network. You feed in a post - and request a civility determination. The net delivers its verdict. If it delivers the wrong verdict then there are statistical algorithms for adjusting the weightings on the network so it should deliver the correct result. If it delivers the correct verdict then you move onto the next post / sentence (?). Feeding in the posts and adjusting the weightings counts as 'training up' the network.
It works quite well as a rock / mine detector :-)
And I think people are having a lot of success with face recognition.It would probably be a mammoth project just to get it correctly determining grossly uncivil posts. The success of such a machine would be partly dependent on the trainer who decides whether the machine is delivering the correct result or not. Over time it might get quite good.
It might handle all the cases that we consider 'clear' so well that we are willing to go along with it on cases that are less clear.But I don't see how that process would help us understand the civility rules. I mean, we could make a PDP net that delivered the same 'answers' as a person would. But that doesn't help us get any clearer on *how* a person is able to deliver the answer. Except that the brain is rather like a PDP net. But we knew that already...
Alternatively...
I was serious with my suggestion to see whether there are different kinds of uncivil behaviour. I can't find the post at the moment...
But the notion is that if you can figure that out then it helps clarify the concept of civility. You need a clear concept / theory BEFORE you are going to have any success with programming. And a nice measure of clarity of concept / theory is whether it is programable.The hard bits would be in getting the program to recognise new instances of a type of uncivil behaviour. Neural nets have more success with recognition than traditional programs.
Another difficulty is that such a machine wouldn't be able to give an explanation of its verdict. Dr Bob fares a little better in this respect ;-).
If there were a standard explanation as to why each type of uncivil behaviour is considered uncivil then the machine could deliver this as a reason.
It would be useful to have a brief summary as to how the instance was interpreted to be an instance of that particular kind of uncivil behaviour as well...
That might be trickier. Especially when the machine doesn't really know what it is doing...
Hmm
I sort of thought that coming up with different kinds of incivility could give certain people something useful to do with respect to searching the archives and helping everyone better understand the civility rules...
This might fare better than frequent requests for determination???
???
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 15, 2005, at 16:37:53
In reply to Re: Snorting for the record...by GG » Gabbi-x-2, posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 4:13:35
> I appreciated it! And you were right both times. Thanks for doing that. :)
>
> But don't you think my subject line is kinda funny? That was half the fun of my post.
>
> ggI loved it. Did you see I wanted snort to go on as a subject line? It seems you were the only one to take that to heart.
Though of course I'm also partial to "Gabbi's right"Could you maybe start one that says "Gabbi is the queen of all the boards" Or something to that effect?
Posted by All Done on June 16, 2005, at 0:16:13
In reply to Snorting for the record...by GG, posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 2:50:12
> I do snort when I laugh. Just ask All Done. She got to see and hear it live and in person.
I never thought I'd call a snort charming. But yours was, gg. And sweet. Thanks for the snort and the nice afternoon.
:-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 16, 2005, at 0:20:30
In reply to Re: Your snort was music to my ears :) » gardenergirl, posted by All Done on June 16, 2005, at 0:16:13
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 16, 2005, at 0:46:43
In reply to Re: programmable civility rules, posted by alexandra_k on June 15, 2005, at 16:05:06
> I'd love to propose that you PBC everyone *before* blocking them
That's already what I do:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
> even the simplest of spreadsheets would suffice to keep track of posters and their infractions over time.
Sorry, I thought you meant a spreadsheet that would determine whether someone should be blocked.
> Once you've made the decision to PBC or block and gone to the trouble of posting it, why not take it a step further and note the information in Excel? I think you might be surprised at the number of people that receive repeated warnings but nary a block while others do not seem to benefit from such leniency... Allow those of us who care to discourse in an adult manner the time to come to a conclusion or agree to disagree
I do note the information. But more leniency for individuals isn't always better for the group. And it can be highly flammable here, so there isn't always time.
> *exactly* why am I not angry at you anymore when I read the Admin board? I think it's because I am happier and not in as much physical and emotional pain.
That makes sense. I do think if everyone were in less pain, there would be less conflict. :-)
> I think there's always room for improvement here and you seem open to that, even though progress comes slowly, slowly.
>
> SabinaI'm open to that. Thanks for your patience!
--
> I sort of thought that coming up with different kinds of incivility could give certain people something useful to do with respect to searching the archives and helping everyone better understand the civility rules...
>
> alexandra_kAren't different kinds already in the FAQ?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Bob
Posted by Sabina on June 16, 2005, at 8:55:25
In reply to Re: civility, posted by Dr. Bob on June 16, 2005, at 0:46:43
> > I'd love to propose that you PBC everyone *before* blocking them
>
> That's already what I do:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceNot trying to throw it in your face, but what was this? I obviously missed the PBC in this thread. Perhaps there was one from a separate thread that I didn't see, as I am, admittedly, only an occasional visitor here anymore. In that case, I apologize. However, I *am* certain that I've seen immediate blocks in the past, but I have no memory with which to recall them at this time. Sorry. Perhaps someone else has a better memory than I.
Posted by Sabina on June 16, 2005, at 8:56:51
In reply to Re: step in the right direction » Sabina, posted by Tabitha on June 15, 2005, at 12:40:07
Posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2005, at 13:45:11
In reply to Re: civility, posted by Dr. Bob on June 16, 2005, at 0:46:43
Just a quick question. These Administrative posts go on and on all day and all night. Do any of you sleep, eat, excercise? Do you post from work, and at home? There never seems to be a break in the posting. I also would like to know how all of you remember old posts and threads to bring up that help to explain your point. Sometimes it makes me tired just to read all the work that has gone into these posts. Maybe you are all geniuses and the words just flow from your mind. Wish I were that talented. Fondly, phillipa
Posted by AuntieMel on June 16, 2005, at 13:50:20
In reply to Re: immediate blocks without PBC's » Dr. Bob, posted by Sabina on June 16, 2005, at 8:55:25
I agree with Sabina on this one. I don't know the guy really, but on social he seemed glad to be back and said he would try real hard not to have it happen again.
A year is a long time. He was out for an entire year, so he was probably really out of practice. I really think unless the offense was blatant some warning was in order first.
And to add to it - except for his wording he was right! A please rephrase is what I think was in order.
Posted by crushedout on June 16, 2005, at 14:57:07
In reply to Re: civility, posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2005, at 13:45:11
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