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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Aphrodite on June 22, 2004, at 6:10:14
In reply to Re: feeling upset, posted by Dr. Bob on June 22, 2004, at 1:36:24
> If posters are more fragile, it might help if they were more selective in what they read -- and received more support from others...
>Speaking as one of the fragile ones, how can I receive more support from others when it feels unsafe to post when certain posters are using the thread for less than noble purposes? Additionally, if good folks like Dinah, who I trust and depend on, are taking a break, I'm not receiving the additional support I need to handle it.
Posted by lucy stone on June 22, 2004, at 7:53:30
In reply to Could you review this one for overgeneralization, posted by Dinah on June 21, 2004, at 21:53:04
This long post was a reply to one I posted. I was ready to give a long post in reply and stopped myself. This post also says that "psychoanalysis never helped anyone except the Ts wallet" which was aimed directly at me since I have posted that I am in analysis. Although I have repeatedly posted that my therapy has helped me, I do go through rough spots and have doubts sometimes but I don't feel free to ask for support when I do. I'm afraid it will be taken as "proof" that analysis doesn't help.
Posted by partlycloudy on June 22, 2004, at 8:17:59
In reply to Re: feeling upset -- lack of support Dr. Bob, posted by Aphrodite on June 22, 2004, at 6:10:14
I agree with Aphrodite. This forum is not the place I would expect to be challenged in my choice of modalities. Encouraged, yes; supported, yes; questioned as to the validity of my choice? Absolutely NOT.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 8:40:12
In reply to Re: feeling upset -- lack of support Dr. Bob, posted by Aphrodite on June 22, 2004, at 6:10:14
Aphrodite, I'll still be around to support you and others. But I sure won't be self disclosing unless I get really really angry and make a very bad decision.
It's a shame that we have to second guess our every post to see if it contains grounds for attack, but that's the way it is.
I had actually predicted this outcome publicly. That Dr. Bob wouldn't see a thing wrong with the posts from the person who has admitted to being flamed at other sites for saying the same things, but would hand out PBC's like candy for those who respond to it.
It's one of the less pleasant aspects of Babble, and I tend to get too upset about it. I expect more from Dr. Bob than he's capable of giving, I guess.
Posted by partlycloudy on June 22, 2004, at 9:17:18
In reply to Re: feeling upset -- lack of support Dr. Bob » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 8:40:12
OK, this is at the top of the Psychology board:
"This is a message board for mutual support and education. It focuses on psychology and psychotherapy: different theoretical orientations and techniques, the therapy process, transference, how to find a therapist, etc. Please note, however, that psychotherapy itself is not provided here. There are a bunch of other boards here, too: etc..."
The operative words here are SUPPORT and EDUCATION. Being challenged on our choice of treatment would not fall under this guideline, would it?
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 9:27:44
In reply to Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on June 22, 2004, at 9:17:18
Apparently (and I clearly don't see his rationale) Dr. Bob doesn't see it as *unsupportive*.
And it's Dr. Bob's board and his call, and he's actually been pretty consistent about allowing this.
I'm currently working on setting up a Yahoo group for times like these when Dr. Bob isn't doing an adequate job of protecting us.
Fortunately it wouldn't need to be used that often, as he usually does a bang-up job.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 10:31:42
In reply to Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on June 22, 2004, at 9:17:18
or what appear to be inconsistencies.
People have been sanctioned on more than one occasion for saying that Effexor is no good without adding that this was their experience and mileage might vary. Yet the statement:
"Psychoanalysis has never been shown to help any condition, with the exception of the therapists bank account."
is just fine.
People have been sanctioned for saying negative things about anti-benzo sites, yet the statement:
"In many ways PT has actually gotten worse since then: examples such as rebirthing therapy, Recovered memory therapy, and MPD (dissociative disorder) therapy have become quite the "in style" therapies, but they are HIGHLY questionable, if not outright frauds, as my links have demonstrated."
is just dandy.
Especially when I can't tell the difference between saying those therapies are frauds and saying that posters who have reported, directly to the poster making the above statement, that they experience recovered memories or dissociative disorders are either lying or delusional.
I don't get it.
Does anyone know if Dr. Bob gets grant money from the manufacturers of Effexor?
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2004, at 11:25:19
In reply to What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 10:31:42
>
> "Psychoanalysis has never been shown to help any condition, with the exception of the therapists bank account."I absolutely agree with Dinah. I read this statement, especially the use of the word "never", to be a sweeping generalization about psychoanalysis. I also read it to be an untrue statement, as psychoanalysis certainly has helped people in the past, and is currently helping posters on this forum.
I try to remind myself that fires has had negative experiences in therapy. We all are influenced by our own experiences. It may be hard to understand what psychotherapy can really be like when it is effective, helpful, and appropriately undertaken without personal experience of the same. Hopefully, those of us who ARE being helped by wonderful T's will continue to feel comfortable posting here.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2004, at 11:29:04
In reply to What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 10:31:42
Flit flit flit
"Hmmm, that light looks good over there."
ZAP!
Sizzle!
Spirals down to the ground, stunned.
gg the learning impaired moth
Posted by spoc on June 22, 2004, at 12:51:24
In reply to Oh, and one more thing..., posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2004, at 11:29:04
So true GG, and all things considered, that really may be the closest we can ever get to each obtaining the particular environment and tone we want from this site, at almost all times. I need to remember it too.
Sometimes the resulting upset is even easier to steer clear of than others. At least one of the threads referenced here was started by Fires him/herself awhile after those previously feeling offended already knew how they felt about his/her opinions. Things can still be very hard to resist, I agree, but we may feel more in control and therefore safer if we make that more about ourselves. However, I know there is also concern for those who do not yet know the things they may be better off avoiding. But still we can do what we can.
I'm not condoning the material or addressing that aspect at all. Rather, I'm condoning your observation GG that beyond any administrative actions, we can and should exercise our own options, such as avoidance. And, if necessary, the "Do not post to me" option, to the extent that helps (it probably at least soothes the eye, and lessons the impulse to open a post). These may not be fulfilling options, but they are at least ones that are always within our control, whereas what appears on the site isn't always.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 14:44:41
In reply to Re: Oh, and one more thing... » gardenergirl, posted by spoc on June 22, 2004, at 12:51:24
funny thing is that while I might feel anything from irritated to infuriated with posters or posts, it's pretty much dr. bob that hurts me. and he never even knows it, or knows why. funny, isn't it. i know i laugh about it all the time.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 14:46:02
In reply to Re: Oh, and one more thing..., posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 14:44:41
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 15:48:28
In reply to Re: Oh, and one more thing..., posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 14:44:41
for the whole thing.
Posted by pegasus on June 22, 2004, at 16:23:15
In reply to What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2004, at 10:31:42
Right. And one gripe at this point is that even if you go read his links and disagree with the conclusions he draws from them, he just keeps saying that his links have demonstrated the things that he asserts. Even though in my opinion they haven't. I feel that he ignored my main points when I tried to disagree with him. It's just getting my hackles up, that he doesn't seem to me to be interested in a back and forth dialog about any of this, even though he's putting forth these opinions in a relatively . . . ahem . . . assertive way.
He says he feels that his skeptical posts are valuable to babble. And yet, I can't help suspecting, because of his style, that he might have other motives. This is just my opinion, and my read on the situation, but I am not getting a feeling of support and respect from his posts, like I do from almost everyone else here. Quite the contrary. This really bothers me quite a lot. I don't think babble is meant to be about people giving opinions in any form (he says he won't be PC about his opinions, which I think means that he doesn't want to worry about how anyone else feels about his wording or approach). Babble is meant to be where we can be supportive and helpful to each other. Even when we sometimes disagree with each other. Many of us do that in a very respectful and supportive way.
I've asked him not to post to me in the future, and so has Aphrodite. Maybe others would find it helpful to do the same. I won't be responding to any further posts from him, either.
Dr. Bob, I hope you can think of something to do to help with this situation. I know he's not being overtly inappropriate or uncivil, but I feel (and apparently others do as well) that it's putting a bad flavor into babble, which many of us depend on.pegasus
Posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 1:53:25
In reply to Re: What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by pegasus on June 22, 2004, at 16:23:15
I'm guessing Dr Bob would consider posting skeptical stuff about therapy to fall under 'education', and he's said repeatedly, different points of view are fine. So I doubt he'll rule against F in general, although I have to agree, that statement about psychoanalysis being only valuable to line therapist's pockets sounded like an exaggeration/overgeneralization to me. What gives, Dr Bob?
I feel for all of you who are feeling burned by this. Suddenly our little safe haven of the therapy board, usually relatively free of conflict, isn't so safe, and Dr Bob refuses to make it safe again. Anger is perfectly understandable in this situation. But if Dr Bob won't protect us, we'll have to protect ourselves. Can I offer some calming affirmations?
1. My therapy is OK. I don't need other people to support my choice of therapy. It works for me and I'm keeping it.
(this one is for when you're afraid F will use your disclosures to feed his point of view)
2. Therapy is hard. It's normal to struggle and have upsets. It doesn't mean I'm doing the wrong thing, or that therapy is bad, or that my therapist is bad.3. I notice F seems to be trying awfully hard to convince others that therapy is bad. Why might F want to do that? (come up with some ideas here. hint: what might be happening in F's life now, or in F's history, that might contribute?) Do any of those reasons have anything to do with me or my therapy? No they don't.
4. I sure wish Dr Bob would keep the board safer. But when he won't, I can protect myself. I can keep myself safe. No one can make me feel bad about myself or my therapy.
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 23, 2004, at 5:20:08
In reply to Re: What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by pegasus on June 22, 2004, at 16:23:15
On the internet you can find ANYTHING to support ANY point of view.
So, if he is producing websites that say something is bad, I can bet you there are websites out there that that say the opposite.
So simply post them in reply.
Nikki xx
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2004, at 8:00:23
In reply to Re: What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 1:53:25
I bow before your insight.
You are absolutely positively right about Dr. Bob. And also right about the therapy board, a wonderfully supportive and usually conflict free area of the relatively safe and supportive haven of the internet that is Babble (all that therapy, I guess). I wish my therapist had the wonderful understanding of this issue that you have.
Add that to the fact that this poster, possibly quite inadvertantly, stumbled onto a barely and imperfectly scabbed over (and definitely not healed) putrified wound in my own psyche, and it certainly led to a bad situation on my part. For which I really do apologize.
Tabitha, you really do astound me with your wisdom sometimes, in all seriousness.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 23, 2004, at 9:03:14
In reply to Re: What I *really* don't get are the inconsistencies, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2004, at 1:53:25
I hope I don't offend anyone here, but arguing semantics gives me a kind of perverse pleasure.
And I don't know all the history here.
And I agree that referencing only one web site seems to me like a limited view.
But............(the nitpicking part)
this particular statement:
"Psychoanalysis has never been shown to help any condition, with the exception of the therapists bank account."
while certainly generalizing and sweeping and, since for every rule there is an exception, probably not accurate.....
it didn't seem to me as a personal attack of all that are in therapy.
The word psychoANALYSIS was used, not psychoTHERAPY. I tend to think of "pure" analysis to be the lay-on-the-couch type, with the therapist saying nothing but 'hmmmmm' while stroking his beard and writing in a notebook. My therapy, for example, leans towards analysis and is quite valuable, but I wouldn't call it "pure" analysis. It has elements of interpersonal, cognitive, etc. also.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 23, 2004, at 10:50:37
In reply to Nitpicking, posted by AuntieMel on June 23, 2004, at 9:03:14
Posted by pegasus on June 23, 2004, at 11:50:17
In reply to this is the internet.., posted by NikkiT2 on June 23, 2004, at 5:20:08
I've done that, and he hasn't said anything about it. But hopefully it's helpful for other folks. And for myself. I think that's one thing that has been so aggravating for me. I can argue with people who listen, but I don't feel like my point of view counts in this one. And, yeah, I'm like a moth to the flame here. I teethed on arguments like this, and it's just *so* hard to decline to participate when I disagree about something that I think is important.
pegasus
Posted by pegasus on June 23, 2004, at 11:53:56
In reply to Nitpicking, posted by AuntieMel on June 23, 2004, at 9:03:14
You're absolutately right. And some people on babble to seem to do true psychoanalysis, and find it helpful. It is still alive in the world, and it does still have supporters, even if most therapists these days use a different approach.
Also, our poster in question sometimes does seem (to me) to equate all of psychotherapy with psychoanalysis and a few other approaches that he is skeptical about.
pegasus
Posted by lucy stone on June 23, 2004, at 12:48:47
In reply to Nitpicking, posted by AuntieMel on June 23, 2004, at 9:03:14
I do the lay on the couch type of psychoanalysis but it is modern psychoanalysis, not the T stroking his beard (though he has a beard!) type. He talks a lot. I go 4 times a week and it has transformed by life. It is very expensive but I have the money, so what's the problem? I believe the comment about analysis not improving anything by the analyst's bank account was aimed at me because I had tangled a bit with fires on the topic. I didn't like the comment but I let it go...my analysis in action.
Posted by tabitha on June 24, 2004, at 2:19:09
In reply to Re: Oh wise Tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2004, at 8:00:23
Thank you for the compliments. I'll resist my knee-jerk impulse to duck them somehow.
This situation is pushing some painful buttons for you-- I wish I could make it better. (((Dinah)))
Posted by gardenergirl on June 24, 2004, at 14:12:10
In reply to Re: Oh, and one more thing... » gardenergirl, posted by spoc on June 22, 2004, at 12:51:24
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2004, at 19:24:48
In reply to this is the internet.., posted by NikkiT2 on June 23, 2004, at 5:20:08
> Speaking as one of the fragile ones, how can I receive more support from others when it feels unsafe to post when certain posters are using the thread for less than noble purposes?
>
> AphroditePeople can post to you even if you're not posting yourself. Maybe it would feel safer if you ignored those posts?
> This forum is not the place I would expect to be challenged in my choice of modalities. Encouraged, yes; supported, yes; questioned as to the validity of my choice? Absolutely NOT.
>
> partlycloudyWhat if your choice were a particular medication?
> People have been sanctioned for saying negative things about anti-benzo sites, yet the statement:
>
> "In many ways PT has actually gotten worse since then: examples such as rebirthing therapy, Recovered memory therapy, and MPD (dissociative disorder) therapy have become quite the "in style" therapies, but they are HIGHLY questionable, if not outright frauds, as my links have demonstrated."
>
> is just dandy.
>
> Does anyone know if Dr. Bob gets grant money from the manufacturers of Effexor?
>
> DinahWeren't the negative things about the anti-benzo sites stronger than "HIGHLY questionable, if not outright frauds"?
Unfortunately, I'm not receiving grant money from anyone. Don't you think there are a lot of posts here critical of Effexor?
> > Psychoanalysis has never been shown to help any condition, with the exception of the therapists bank account.
>
> I absolutely agree with Dinah. I read this statement, especially the use of the word "never", to be a sweeping generalization about psychoanalysis. I also read it to be an untrue statement, as psychoanalysis certainly has helped people in the past, and is currently helping posters on this forum.
>
> gardenergirlIt's sweeping, yes, but I took it to mean that no study has shown psychoanalysis to be effective for any particular diagnosis, not that psychoanalysis has never helped any individual.
> I feel that he ignored my main points when I tried to disagree with him.
>
> I can't help suspecting, because of his style, that he might have other motives.
>
> I won't be responding to any further posts from him> I'm like a moth to the flame here. I teethed on arguments like this, and it's just *so* hard to decline to participate when I disagree about something that I think is important.
>
> pegasusI agree, if you feel upset by someone, it may be best just not to respond -- or not even to read. Which may be easier said than done, I know, but may also be worth working at...
There may be posters who try to start arguments and upset others. Of course, not everyone who starts an argument or upsets someone else *intends* to do so...
> Can I offer some calming affirmations?
>
> 1. My therapy is OK. I don't need other people to support my choice of therapy. It works for me and I'm keeping it.
>
> 2. Therapy is hard. It's normal to struggle and have upsets. It doesn't mean I'm doing the wrong thing, or that therapy is bad, or that my therapist is bad.
>
> 3. I notice F seems to be trying awfully hard to convince others that therapy is bad. Why might F want to do that? ... Do any of those reasons have anything to do with me or my therapy? No they don't.
>
> 4. I sure wish Dr Bob would keep the board safer. But when he won't, I can protect myself. I can keep myself safe. No one can make me feel bad about myself or my therapy.
>
> tabitha> if he is producing websites that say something is bad, I can bet you there are websites out there that that say the opposite.
>
> So simply post them in reply.
>
> Nikki xxExcellent, thanks!
Bob
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