![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by bleauberry on October 7, 2009, at 9:57:20
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » bleauberry, posted by Bob on October 6, 2009, at 21:26:21
> >
> > So there ya go! Hope it helps.
> >
> > Hope this helps!
>
>
> That was a helpful post. It begs the question though as to whether you are currently taking it, and if not, why not?
>Excellent question. I am not on it. I was on it for about 3 weeks. During that time I had a roller coaster ride of feeling energetic, peppy and happy, to feeling like I wanted to cry, sometimes these waves were only minutes long, sometimes hours, sometimes entire days. It was obvious some rebalancing of something was occuring and that it was in a good direction and I had every intention of continuing.
Then I increased the dose to 3mg. Bad mistake. Severe depression. Was it a stronger Herx? Something else? I don't know. But it scared me.
The whole while some longstanding skin infections, boil-like, were getting much worse. I knew from hearing from other LDN users that the first month or so commonly includes worsening of existing symptoms, and that the worse they get in early treatment is predictive of the best outcomes in later treatment. It appears to be stage of immunopathology in readjustment. It was the 3mg dose that really scared me away.
Am I to return to it? That is a definite yes. Those minutes, hours, or days of happy energy were totally awesome, probably just a hint of things to come, and I want more of that! But I realize now it must be part of a comprehensive plan in my case, not a monotherapy. I need to include anti-spirochete agents, antifungal agents, antiprotazoal agents, anti-autoimmune agents, and anti-inflammatory agents, as well as continue to sample things that might help depression. This is actually a fairly short list of about 6 different herbs that cover that entire spectrum, all with extremely low toxicity, suitable for longterm use, inexpensive, a large body of evidence spanning generations of experience supporting their efficacy and safety.
I wish I would be in that 20% group that finds LDN by itself to be the miracle, but I think I am in the 60% group that finds it very beneficial but as a component of a comprehensive strategy.
I plan to restart it soon, likely Nov 1. I just got out of surgery and this not a good time to making any big changes for me.
When I do, it will be the 1.5mg dose for at least a month, maybe longer. When I increase it, I will be opening my compounded pharmacy capsules to make my own...increasing in .5mg steps. Going from 1.5mg to 3mg is a 100% increase. Too much for me. I'll go from 1.5mg to 2.0mg, or maybe even 1.5mg to 1.75mg.
Posted by Jimmyboy on October 7, 2009, at 22:07:01
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by bleauberry on October 7, 2009, at 9:57:20
I tried it several times for about a week or two at a time. Probably 3 -4 trials. I had similar response. The first few days woke up with energy and less depressed and more socially outgoing. Within a few days I would get completely exhausted in the mid afternoon and feel like I was going to nod off any minute. Eventually after a weeke or two I would feel very weird kind of like out of body/dissassociation type feelings and feel physically shaky and it seemed to really aggravate my anxiety so I got off it everytime. This could have been a herx like effect or maybe I was getting too much endorphins or dopamine.
But I agree with the above posters that it is a very powerful drug and has the potential to help some folks. It just was not a good drug for myself.
Posted by Bob on October 8, 2009, at 0:47:17
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Jimmyboy on October 7, 2009, at 22:07:01
> I tried it several times for about a week or two at a time. Probably 3 -4 trials. I had similar response. The first few days woke up with energy and less depressed and more socially outgoing. Within a few days I would get completely exhausted in the mid afternoon and feel like I was going to nod off any minute. Eventually after a weeke or two I would feel very weird kind of like out of body/dissassociation type feelings and feel physically shaky and it seemed to really aggravate my anxiety so I got off it everytime. This could have been a herx like effect or maybe I was getting too much endorphins or dopamine.
>
> But I agree with the above posters that it is a very powerful drug and has the potential to help some folks. It just was not a good drug for myself.My experience closely parallels yours, except my super-ultra-sensitivity to meds caused me to have to stop it within 3 days. After the beautiful morning and afternoon of the first day, it all started to go downhill rather quickly. I started getting bouts of depression, anxiety, and irritability.
Disappointing, but not the first drug I've had that type of experience with.
Bob
Posted by Jimmyboy on October 8, 2009, at 9:39:48
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Jimmyboy, posted by Bob on October 8, 2009, at 0:47:17
Agreed, it is disappointing b/c its an interesting and rather ingenius therapy that I hoped would work. By far most of the anecdotal reports I have read, the folks taking it had no bad effects at all just positives that came along gradually with the immune modulating effect But like you said .. if you have foud yourself at this board often you are probably the type that has paradoxical rxn's to meds and are non-responsive or ultra sensitive to everything.
Posted by casse on December 22, 2009, at 12:46:04
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Jimmyboy on October 8, 2009, at 9:39:48
I'm new to this board and have been searching through older threads on LDN. I've been using it off and on since June '09. I can't take the 1.5 mg that is reported to be the minimally effective dose. In fact I just started back on it at .25mg every other night. Some people are so extremely sensitive to meds that they must start very low. Dr. Lawrence ( UK ) uses doses lower than 1.5 mg. for some of his patients.
I'm still fiddling with trying to find the right way to dose, but I'm not alone. There is a new yahoo group dedicated to people who are using very low dose naltrexone. I don't get the mental anxiety from it if I take too high a dose, I just feel ill at ease physically and that can be exhausting. But I feel that way anyway it's just a little worse with LDN sometimes. Overall, I feel that LDN is helpful. I can get out of bed and think more clearly. The initial icky feelings on it make me think "homeopathic" might be accurate in describing it's action.
I've done a lot of reading about Naltrexone, and one outstanding complaint in people on it at 25+ mg. is anxiety. Loss of pleasure is also common. I suspect that even at low doses it might sequester in tissue, resulting in constant blockade of endorphin production instead of the intermittent blockade that is therapeutic. That's why I skip doses. I'm still trying to find what works best.
I compound my own from 50mg tabs in syrup from the pharmacy to get such a low dose. 100ml of syrup ( or distilled water ) makes for .5mg pr 1 ml.
Are you still using it?
Posted by tea on December 27, 2009, at 19:52:17
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by casse on December 22, 2009, at 12:46:04
My poting nick used to be tealady, but I can't recall my email and my password stopped working over a year ago...so I couldnt see how to post other thn to sign up again as tea
> I'm new to this board and have been searching through older threads on LDN. I've been using it off and on since June '09. I can't take the 1.5 mg that is reported to be the minimally effective dose. In fact I just started back on it at .25mg every other night.
> I'm still fiddling with trying to find the right way to dose, but I'm not alone.
me 2 , similar with still fiddling and needing a way smaller dose, and intermittent-maybe until I get mor eused to it
Even at the 3mg dose I get greatly increased depression when I take it as it effects /until it wears off , anxiety too- I think but I havent taken as much lately. also can't sleep at night unitl it wears off, but then sleep very very deeply in morning- its midday now and I'm still reqlly wiped. But after it wears off and I've been on it for a few days it really does give me an increase in energy and I can wear thru the bush and not get tired- havent been able to do that in many years.I was looking here as I was wondering how others cope with going on it.
It does really help with decrease in pain felt.. also I think it may work as they say, but I've only been fiddling-twice now, all I can say it defunutely causes a decrease in pain feltI tried some ldn from India, and I couldn't titrate it in water as it didnt all dissolve and settled to bottom , I presume just the fillers but who knows. To be more sure of an even dose I just broken the tablet up- not precise as yet, but always less than 2mg or so (keep subdividing tablet).. then I took just a few grains on a finger sometimes! Not every day also.
Thinking of buying more accurate scales, but I can only get on ebay up to 1mg , which means, I presume it could be out by 0.5mg in measurement.(they don't specify).PS Lar, I reckon you should look into this stuff, should help you re pain and considering some of your problems seem to have some sorta autoimmune/hormonal posiibility to them.. but if you do, take it really really tiny (less than 1mg) due to the depression reacytion as it works for those few hrs at nighttime..and just stay in bed after you take it... even if you do feel really depressed, and everything is worrying etc, it wears off
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2009, at 20:27:50
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » casse, posted by tea on December 27, 2009, at 19:52:17
I saved the link you posted quite a while back on it and it's at the top of my mailbox. Welcome back. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 28, 2009, at 0:46:46
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » casse, posted by tea on December 27, 2009, at 19:52:17
> My poting nick used to be tealady, but I can't recall my email and my password stopped working over a year ago...so I couldnt see how to post other thn to sign up again as tea
Welcome back! I should be able to help you get tealady working again, just email me.
Bob
Posted by tea on December 28, 2009, at 3:22:58
In reply to LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Bob on October 5, 2009, at 22:45:53
> I might be behind the curve here, but I recently came across some literature espousing Low Dose Naltrexone for, among other things, fibromyalgia symptoms. The prevailing recommendations suggest taking it some time between 10pm and 2am before going to bed. The theory is that it inhibits endogenous opiate receptors during the time of peak activity during sleep (I guess) thus raising the available levels of endorphins available. The usual doses for things like addiction problems is 50mg, but the LDN regimen calls for building up the dose by 1.5mg increments to a total of only 4.5mg.
>
> Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with LDN. I got the prescription for 1.5mg 3 times per day and took the first pill two nights ago. The next day I woke up refreshed and felt unusually calm and relaxed, yet energetic and focused. All my fibro type aches, pains and muscle problems seemed to evaporate and I was well enough to be able to clean and arrange a significant portion of the house. It was a day like I hadn't had in a long time.I think the idea with ldn is to take only once a day (ie intermittently so your recptors are not continually dosed - ie they just have the 'hita' lasts no longer than 4 hrs (My understanding) and the response to the blockade of the recptors is what is supposed to help. So 3 times a day would build up and stop working.
Some poeple whose metabolism is a little slow(like hypothryoid) semt o function better ecven taking once every 2 or 3 days.. to allow sufficinet time for recptors not to be blocked. I haven't worked it out as yet myself!
Posted by Green Willow on December 28, 2009, at 22:22:26
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by tea on December 28, 2009, at 3:22:58
I have been taking ldn since early May '09 with great results. It has stopped my RA and spondy and at 3 mg. my health is back to 100% for which I am very happy. However, I do have this deep depressive disorder thingy going on, and I had no idea ldn might be aggrevating that. The other thing that I experience is that I sleep so soundly and well in the morning that it is about impossible to pull myself out of bed before 11 a.m. Sometimes I have strange dreams, usually they are actually bad dreams, but nothing to the extent that would make me want to go off this stuff as the benefit to my auto-immune is unbelievably good. Green Willow
Posted by tea on December 29, 2009, at 5:06:00
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Green Willow on December 28, 2009, at 22:22:26
> I have been taking ldn since early May '09 with great results. It has stopped my RA and spondy and at 3 mg. my health is back to 100% for which I am very happy. However, I do have this deep depressive disorder thingy going on, and I had no idea ldn might be aggrevating that. The other thing that I experience is that I sleep so soundly and well in the morning that it is about impossible to pull myself out of bed before 11 a.m. Sometimes I have strange dreams, usually they are actually bad dreams, but nothing to the extent that would make me want to go off this stuff as the benefit to my auto-immune is unbelievably good. Green Willow
I've been reading/listening to ldn most of the day. It seems a lot of pople are successful at lower than 3mg dose ..like 1.5mg or even 1mg over a longer period of time. I know you started lower and worked up to 3mg, but was that because it wan't effective until 3mg? Do you think it would work as well at say 2.75mg say? or even 2.5mg. One doc was saying we should all aim for the minimal effective does and I agree... not that I've worked it our myself!
Also some are taking once very other day or even once every 3 days better than daily as, I guess, they need that time off for the bounce back (maybe they have a slower metabolism or even slower liver function). Maybe being a bit hypothryoid means I have a slower metabolism.
I've been searching around tonight and found that very low dose forum mentioned on here. Here's the link if you are interested
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Very_Low_Dose_Naltrexone/message/525 This post is showing that some who have said it stopped working have taken les often or lowered dose and it started working well again.
They are also saying depression is a starting side effect.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Very_Low_Dose_Naltrexone/Back to more reading. Thanks for giving me the confidence to continue.
Posted by Green Willow on December 29, 2009, at 20:51:47
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Green Willow, posted by tea on December 29, 2009, at 5:06:00
Thanks for cluing me in to the very-ldn group. I may be at the point where scaling back would be useful. I did a little partying last week and didn't take ldn the nights I had alcohol. I went about 4 nights in a row without taking any ldn and my RA did not bother at all, so I believe it must be building up or have some residual effects. During those 4 days, I did notice short bursts of the pounding heart but nothing that lasted long. By the way, I have been dxd with atrial fib.
Posted by Phillipa on December 29, 2009, at 21:41:32
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » tea, posted by Green Willow on December 29, 2009, at 20:51:47
That's not good are you taking something for it med wise? Love Phillipa
Posted by Green Willow on December 30, 2009, at 21:21:36
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Green Willow, posted by Phillipa on December 29, 2009, at 21:41:32
No, tried a few meds they prescribed and didn't like the effects. At this point it is rare that I have arrhythmias so I don't worry about it, and when I do have them I can usually trace it back to something such as medication that brought on the arrhythmia. About 7 years ago my heart was going wild all the time, but seldom anymore. GW
Posted by casse on December 31, 2009, at 14:08:14
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Green Willow, posted by tea on December 29, 2009, at 5:06:00
I started back on VLDN last week. I took .25 mg every other day for 4 days, then skipped an extra day before taking only .125 mg (appx.) last night.
The extra day I skipped I felt better than I have in months. But it was sunny for the first time in weeks too....
I seem to feel worse the morning after I use LDN and a bit better the second day as a rule. I decided to try it at the even lower dose every other day and see if that helps. I didn't feel too bad this morning, so maybe the extremely low dose is more appropriate for me.
I have some vivid dreaming and difficulty sleeping if I stay up too long after taking it, but I can't say that it has really disrupted my sleep much. But I also take 50-100 mg of Trazodone every night. My problem is really more with feeling more anxiety symptoms than depression. And the anxiety aggrivates depression for me.
I definitely feel that the LDN is causing an increase in endorphin production, but I'm at a loss as to why this doesn't feel good to me. I never liked the way hydrocodone made me feel either. I didn't feel the wonderful euphoria I read about, it was a hard, icky feeling.
When I'm taking LDN it's hard for me to sleep in, I wake up and feel better if I get up and move. If I don't get up I just feel more and more agitated.
It's so interesting how differently people react to it.
Posted by Elroy on December 31, 2009, at 16:31:59
In reply to LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Bob on October 5, 2009, at 22:45:53
> I might be behind the curve here, but I recently came across some literature espousing Low Dose Naltrexone for, among other things, fibromyalgia symptoms. The prevailing recommendations suggest taking it some time between 10pm and 2am before going to bed. The theory is that it inhibits endogenous opiate receptors during the time of peak activity during sleep (I guess) thus raising the available levels of endorphins available. The usual doses for things like addiction problems is 50mg, but the LDN regimen calls for building up the dose by 1.5mg increments to a total of only 4.5mg.
>
> Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with LDN. I got the prescription for 1.5mg 3 times per day and took the first pill two nights ago. The next day I woke up refreshed and felt unusually calm and relaxed, yet energetic and focused. All my fibro type aches, pains and muscle problems seemed to evaporate and I was well enough to be able to clean and arrange a significant portion of the house. It was a day like I hadn't had in a long time. Last night I took another single 1.5mg pill and slept like a baby. Today I woke up and was irritated and tired. As the day progressed I felt somewhat weak, had some episodes of sweatiness, and had periods of depression. As good as the first day was, it has all seemed to have evaporated.
>
> Is LDN something that can build over time, or is this second day a bad sign, and an indicator that this is not a good thing to pursue? I am confounded by the good first day and how quicky it seemed to disappear.
>
> Bob
>
LDN is not really designed as a primary anti-depression or anti-anxiety agents... though many of its users HAVE reported very positive results in both of those categories as they apply to their individual cases.For some great informational sites and info see the following:
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/index.htm
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/index.htm#What_is_low_dose_naltrexone
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/ldn_and_ms.htm
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/ldn_and_ai.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_dose_naltrexone
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/gazorpa/LDNFAQ.html
http://www.emaxhealth.com/1035/39/29168/more-magic-bullet-low-dose-naltrexone.html
http://www.ldnresearchtrustfiles.co.uk/docs/2009.pdf
(A 47-page Booklet of 47 Case Studies of the use of LDN... the booklet, once downloaded, can be printed out))https://ldndatabase.dabbledb.com/page/cancer-researchcopy/ddXxiaHj#
http://www.webspawner.com/users/introtoldn/index.html
These (below) are YouTube video clips on YouTube that are about LDN Therapy that you might find interesting......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAZ1fQKdOC8&feature=related (very good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRI5f69N2eo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55562cy9fgQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT6J0M5GTQ4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVpjsDK0LPA
And ----Tea...
You are taking doses WAY too wrong - WAT too imprecise.
If you take too little, LDN will NOT work...
If you take too much, you reverse the effects that you are seeking....
The way that you are taking it is way too much "rough guessing".
This IS the correct formula to follow EXACTLY) to make a 1 mg dose of LDN (so then you can try 2 mg or 3 mg or 4mg) - 1.5mg is the lowest that ANY of the expert doctors have found to work...
Anyone having "positive effects" on less than that is experiencing the "Placebo Effect":
http://www.webspawner.com/users/howtoobtainldn/index.html
QUOTE:
AllDayChemist (India) http://www.alldaychemist.com/single_product_detail.php?productid=1704&isProductID=156/1(The River Pharmacy buys their Naltrexone tablets from India and then resells them. At the present time, Naltrexone is manufactured by a number of different companies... *)
Once you have a supply of 50 mg Naltrexone tablets, you can convert them as needed to LDN. To do so, fill a graduated cylinder with 50 ml of distilled water (unlike tap or spring water, distilled water contains no impurities that could potentially react with and thus reduce Naltrexone's effectiveness). Pour the water from the graduate into a 4 oz amber glass jar with a tight-fitting lid. Then add a 50 mg Naltrexone tablet. The tablet will mostly dissolve in about five to ten minutes. Since not all of the tablet is soluble in water, instead of yielding a clear solution, the result will be a cloudy suspension. It must be shaken each time before use to evenly disperse all the undissolved particles. One ml of the (shaken) suspension will contain one mg of Naltrexone. Use a graduated baby medicine dropper to measure out the dose you need.
Once a drug passes from a solid to a liquid state, its shelf life can decrease dramatically. Therefore, do not make more than 50 ml of liquid Naltrexone at a time, store it in the refrigerator, and do not keep it for more than a month. The fresher the preparation, the better. Be sure to shake the liquid LDN well before using, and keep it from direct exposure to sunlight.
The medicine dropper should be available in the infant/baby section of your local pharmacy. If you ask politely and are lucky, the pharmacist may (as a gesture of good will) give you an empty 4 oz amber glass jar. Distilled water is sold by most pharmacies, as well as by supermarkets, hardware stores, and convenience stores.
(END QUOTE)One precaution to the above. After initially dissolving the tablet in the specified amount of distilled water and shake it thoroughly to insure the Naltrexone is fully dissolved and disperesed in the solution, do NOT shake it anymore (as in prior to using it). The sediment - particles in the solution when you shake it - are binder substance compounds and several manufacturers use a dietary form of iron powder as one of their binding agent components and that can adversely affect Lupus patients and others with similarly related disorders.
From the Yahoo Group on LDN Therapy:
QUOTE:
Subject: [lowdosenaltrexone] Naltrexone and solutionsFor those of you that prepare naltrexone from 50 mg tablets dissolved in water- I have a strong recommendation for you: do not shake the solution before use. Shake when you prepare it, but once the tablet is dissolved, there is no need to suspend the insoluble portions of the tablet.
This is fairly important for those with Crohn's, but possibly other diseases as well. If the tablet contains iron oxide (the ones we buy do), the iron is very hard on the system. Naltrexone is very soluble; it will already be in the solution- it does NOT settle out. But removing the iron oxide may help those with Crohn's.
I am an analytical chemist, and have discovered this by trial-and-error. Iron supplementation is strongly discouraged for those on the SCD- and there is a very good reason for that. The reason the body is iron-deficient is because it believes it is combating an infection. If the iron as supplements is withheld, one can consume iron-rich foods like red meat, eggs, liver, etc. If the iron is added- particularly as the iron oxide in naltrexone tablets- the result is pain and bleeding, even in very small amounts.
Again- I'm a chemist by training. If you make your own solution, PLEASE do not consume the insoluble sediment. There is absolutely no need to shake the solution right before you consume it- only when you're preparing it for the first time- as the naltrexone is already dissolved.
I hope this helps someone somewhere. Good luck, and best wishes.
END QUOTE(*) The pills you are taking - even though manufactured in India, ALL of them are destined to also be sold under American brand names - and consist of pure Naltrexone Hcl USP, plus whatever used binders - it is the binders that do no dissolve fully in the distilled water, and it must be DISTILLED water... for the formula to work correctly (only as certain mineral content of some tap waters may have compounds which release cause the Naltrexone to dissolve too slowly... it should dump into your system in a rush ... and in that matter, the DIY formula is actually better than the pharmacy compounded tablets.
Posted by tea on January 1, 2010, at 3:30:29
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » tea, posted by casse on December 31, 2009, at 14:08:14
It sure is interesting to hear how you are going on ldn Casse, and you are different, although lots are reporting that anxiety. Love it if you could keep chiming in occasionally with how you are going.
Best, tea
Posted by casse on January 1, 2010, at 11:57:27
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Elroy on December 31, 2009, at 16:31:59
> This IS the correct formula to follow EXACTLY) to make a 1 mg dose of LDN (so then you can try 2 mg or 3 mg or 4mg) - 1.5mg is the lowest that ANY of the expert doctors have found work...
Actually Dr. Bob Lawrence, a Welsh phyisican with MS uses doses lower than 1 mg for some of his patients. Here's an interview with him regarding the use of LDN in his practice. There are some wonderful interviews with doctors and activists for LDN.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mary-boyle-bradley/2009/09/29/the-mary-bradley-show
Posted by Elroy on January 2, 2010, at 16:32:10
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Elroy, posted by casse on January 1, 2010, at 11:57:27
> > This IS the correct formula to follow EXACTLY) to make a 1 mg dose of LDN (so then you can try 2 mg or 3 mg or 4mg) - 1.5mg is the lowest that ANY of the expert doctors have found work...
>
> Actually Dr. Bob Lawrence, a Welsh phyisican with MS uses doses lower than 1 mg for some of his patients. Here's an interview with him regarding the use of LDN in his practice. There are some wonderful interviews with doctors and activists for LDN.
>
> http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mary-boyle-bradley/2009/09/29/the-mary-bradley-show
NOTED (from your reply): "....uses doses lower than 1 mg for SOME of his patients.... " So apparently uses regular doses in MOST of the others....Sorry, but experts ovder here, including doctor who invented Naltrexone and then formulated the LDNTherapy - and another specialist who has passed even that imminent doctor in LDN Therapy expertise (see the book) insist that doses at LESS that 1.5 mg will NOT cause the body to halt the Endorphin secretion process... and THAT i8s the key to the entire curative process.
I am not here to argue about it... I have read two major books on LDN Therapy and several PubMed articles (etc., etc.) and am going to trust them over some likely placebo effects anecdotal responses by a handful of patients from ONE doctor over there.
As a famous statesman once said, "You, madam do indeed have the right to your own opinion... but you do NOT have the right to your own FACTS".
Posted by tea on January 2, 2010, at 22:26:15
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Elroy on December 31, 2009, at 16:31:59
>
>
> Tea...
>
> You are taking doses WAY too wrong - WAT too imprecise.
>
> If you take too little, LDN will NOT work...
>
> If you take too much, you reverse the effects that you are seeking....
>
> The way that you are taking it is way too much "rough guessing".
>
> This IS the correct formula to follow EXACTLY) to make a 1 mg dose of LDN (so then you can try 2 mg or 3 mg or 4mg) - 1.5mg is the lowest that ANY of the expert doctors have found to work...
>
...
>
> One precaution to the above. After initially dissolving the tablet in the specified amount of distilled water and shake it thoroughly to insure the Naltrexone is fully dissolved and disperesed in the solution, do NOT shake it anymore (as in prior to using it). The sediment - particles in the solution when you shake it - are binder substance compounds and several manufacturers use a dietary form of iron powder as one of their binding agent components and that can adversely affect Lupus patients and others with similarly related disorders.
>
> From the Yahoo Group on LDN Therapy:
>
> QUOTE:
> Subject: [lowdosenaltrexone] Naltrexone and solutions
>
> For those of you that prepare naltrexone from 50 mg tablets dissolved in water- I have a strong recommendation for you: do not shake the solution before use. Shake when you prepare it, but once the tablet is dissolved, there is no need to suspend the insoluble portions of the tablet.
>
> This is fairly important for those with Crohn's, but possibly other diseases as well. If the tablet contains iron oxide (the ones we buy do), the iron is very hard on the system. Naltrexone is very soluble; it will already be in the solution- it does NOT settle out. But removing the iron oxide may help those with Crohn's.
>
> I am an analytical chemist, and have discovered this by trial-and-error. Iron supplementation is strongly discouraged for those on the SCD- and there is a very good reason for that. The reason the body is iron-deficient is because it believes it is combating an infection. If the iron as supplements is withheld, one can consume iron-rich foods like red meat, eggs, liver, etc. If the iron is added- particularly as the iron oxide in naltrexone tablets- the result is pain and bleeding, even in very small amounts.
>
> Again- I'm a chemist by training. If you make your own solution, PLEASE do not consume the insoluble sediment. There is absolutely no need to shake the solution right before you consume it- only when you're preparing it for the first time- as the naltrexone is already dissolved.
>
> I hope this helps someone somewhere. Good luck, and best wishes.
> END QUOTE
>
> (*) The pills you are taking - even though manufactured in India, ALL of them are destined to also be sold under American brand names - and consist of pure Naltrexone Hcl USP, plus whatever used binders - it is the binders that do no dissolve fully in the distilled water, and it must be DISTILLED water... for the formula to work correctly (only as certain mineral content of some tap waters may have compounds which release cause the Naltrexone to dissolve too slowly... it should dump into your system in a rush ... and in that matter, the DIY formula is actually better than the pharmacy compounded tablets.
>
>Thanks for that on the fillers in the ldn from India being insoluble.
very helpful andf supportive info!
I knew mine were not fully soluble, just as you say, but everywhere I was reading on the web I could find people were saying they were completely soluble and they got a clear solution. No matter what I tried I didn't (mentioned in previous post). I was considering switching the source. I tried dissolving in alcohol, water, vinegar (acid), warm to cold water(wasn't sure if too much heat would alter the naltrexone). Seemed to me from the chemical formula, as you say, naltrexone should be soluble.
I will try again and filter the solution.
Beats me jow one person stated they get their ldn from India and they make a clear solution with it though! That also makes all the rest of their testimony a bit suss unfortunately.Re the minimal effective dose, or if or if not there exists a threshold for ldn effectiveness.
I don't want to argue as we are all entitled as you say to our differing opinions, hopefully all, as yours and many others are based on relatively extensive reading and listening and following experts "opinions". That's all we can do.
Personaly mine also differs from yours but where and if there exists a threshold level I couldn't say with my limited experience.. even in myself!
I would just like you to consider perhaps ldn working like a "runner's high".. perhaps it does partly and perhaps not but it's only as a comparator. Most people and experts in training will say you need to run so far and so often for thsi "high" to kick in. Individual runners will have their own "levels" it kicks in. Some poeple just don't seem to experience it, or can't exercise enough to get a full blown one. But I belive that everyone does benefit from walking and running , even at less than the amounts that are stated to be required for this high or even to obtain fitness beneifts.
I think it has to do with the condition of the individual as well as many other factors. I myself feel better even if I walk a little than not at all. I think there is perhaps not a threshold black/white but a gradual grey beginning with just one step being better than nothing.. however to feel the full optimal benefits that requires more. I suspect ldn is similar, and some may just have to start out at a lower dose and work up to their optimal.. which, if in poor condition, may possibly be lower than 3mg. I think one factor would have to be the level of their receptors, which may be more than usually downregulated, in which case less would produce a an equivalent percentage blocked.
I don't understand how ldn works, and can't find it clearly written anywhere so far. I have studied the immune system at uni at a basic level though, and will continue to try and fathom out some acceptable "theory" at least for myself.
Although I couldn't say how ldn precisely works, I do think people can obtain some benefits at suboptimal(lower)doses though- as in running or any physical activity, and these benefits may make all the difference in allowing them to obtain more in other ways. Eg low dose ldn may allow them to exercise more without getting tired or in pain..allowing a build up from the exercise together wirth the ldn being additive, even synergistic. I think it's a mistake to just consider one thing alone.
Also I don't think you require (or even if) a total receptor blockout happens(it's more percentage blocked I would have thought)? I haven't come across any animal research where they have examined the receptors for that assumption to be made?
Hope we can agree to disagree:) and thanks for your help on the India ldn, much appreciated. Great for an expert on chemistry to help out.
Kind regards,
Jan
PS I know depression is not something ldn is designed to treat.. why I think it may help some on here who ALSO have other symptoms such as fatigue or pain and other symptoms , concomittent with their depression is a long story.. based on my own story as well as numerous others I have read :) If you have depression/anxiety and nothing else I too doubt ldn would help.
I know there is a belief in medicine that depresson/anxiety can cause these other symptoms like fatigue. This "belief" is aided by the treatment(like anti D's) also benefitting the other symptoms.
For me, this should not rule out the possibility of another common cause.. like an undiscovered low level immune problem or similar which may be the cause of the depression, as well as the other symptoms.
I believe I have in my lifetime experienced depression and anxiety which were not linked to anything else as well as having later in life at least an undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid problem which caused the fatigue etc and made me "depressed"..and also responded to an extent to antiD's, more so initially (first few years).
It seems to me that this later autoimmune problem may have been able to be resolved with ldn if caught early enough, if ldn works as the promise of it seem to imply. I therefore thought, for some, if they also have other problems (as many on here seem to), it may be worthwhile them considering looking at ldn. Hope this makes sense.
And thanks again for your help with the solubility.
Posted by Elroy on January 4, 2010, at 14:45:31
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by tea on January 2, 2010, at 22:26:15
> >
> >
> > Tea...
> >
> > You are taking doses WAY too wrong - WAT too imprecise.
> >
> > If you take too little, LDN will NOT work...
> >
> > If you take too much, you reverse the effects that you are seeking....
> >
> > The way that you are taking it is way too much "rough guessing".
> >
> > This IS the correct formula to follow EXACTLY) to make a 1 mg dose of LDN (so then you can try 2 mg or 3 mg or 4mg) - 1.5mg is the lowest that ANY of the expert doctors have found to work...
> >
> ...
> >
> > One precaution to the above. After initially dissolving the tablet in the specified amount of distilled water and shake it thoroughly to insure the Naltrexone is fully dissolved and disperesed in the solution, do NOT shake it anymore (as in prior to using it). The sediment - particles in the solution when you shake it - are binder substance compounds and several manufacturers use a dietary form of iron powder as one of their binding agent components and that can adversely affect Lupus patients and others with similarly related disorders.
> >
> > From the Yahoo Group on LDN Therapy:
> >
> > QUOTE:
> > Subject: [lowdosenaltrexone] Naltrexone and solutions
> >
> > For those of you that prepare naltrexone from 50 mg tablets dissolved in water- I have a strong recommendation for you: do not shake the solution before use. Shake when you prepare it, but once the tablet is dissolved, there is no need to suspend the insoluble portions of the tablet.
> >
> > This is fairly important for those with Crohn's, but possibly other diseases as well. If the tablet contains iron oxide (the ones we buy do), the iron is very hard on the system. Naltrexone is very soluble; it will already be in the solution- it does NOT settle out. But removing the iron oxide may help those with Crohn's.
> >
> > I am an analytical chemist, and have discovered this by trial-and-error. Iron supplementation is strongly discouraged for those on the SCD- and there is a very good reason for that. The reason the body is iron-deficient is because it believes it is combating an infection. If the iron as supplements is withheld, one can consume iron-rich foods like red meat, eggs, liver, etc. If the iron is added- particularly as the iron oxide in naltrexone tablets- the result is pain and bleeding, even in very small amounts.
> >
> > Again- I'm a chemist by training. If you make your own solution, PLEASE do not consume the insoluble sediment. There is absolutely no need to shake the solution right before you consume it- only when you're preparing it for the first time- as the naltrexone is already dissolved.
> >
> > I hope this helps someone somewhere. Good luck, and best wishes.
> > END QUOTE
> >
> > (*) The pills you are taking - even though manufactured in India, ALL of them are destined to also be sold under American brand names - and consist of pure Naltrexone Hcl USP, plus whatever used binders - it is the binders that do no dissolve fully in the distilled water, and it must be DISTILLED water... for the formula to work correctly (only as certain mineral content of some tap waters may have compounds which release cause the Naltrexone to dissolve too slowly... it should dump into your system in a rush ... and in that matter, the DIY formula is actually better than the pharmacy compounded tablets.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Thanks for that on the fillers in the ldn from India being insoluble.
> very helpful andf supportive info!
> I knew mine were not fully soluble, just as you say, but everywhere I was reading on the web I could find people were saying they were completely soluble and they got a clear solution. No matter what I tried I didn't (mentioned in previous post). I was considering switching the source. I tried dissolving in alcohol, water, vinegar (acid), warm to cold water(wasn't sure if too much heat would alter the naltrexone). Seemed to me from the chemical formula, as you say, naltrexone should be soluble.
> I will try again and filter the solution.
> Beats me jow one person stated they get their ldn from India and they make a clear solution with it though! That also makes all the rest of their testimony a bit suss unfortunately.
>
> Re the minimal effective dose, or if or if not there exists a threshold for ldn effectiveness.
> I don't want to argue as we are all entitled as you say to our differing opinions, hopefully all, as yours and many others are based on relatively extensive reading and listening and following experts "opinions". That's all we can do.
> Personaly mine also differs from yours but where and if there exists a threshold level I couldn't say with my limited experience.. even in myself!
> I would just like you to consider perhaps ldn working like a "runner's high".. perhaps it does partly and perhaps not but it's only as a comparator. Most people and experts in training will say you need to run so far and so often for thsi "high" to kick in. Individual runners will have their own "levels" it kicks in. Some poeple just don't seem to experience it, or can't exercise enough to get a full blown one. But I belive that everyone does benefit from walking and running , even at less than the amounts that are stated to be required for this high or even to obtain fitness beneifts.
> I think it has to do with the condition of the individual as well as many other factors. I myself feel better even if I walk a little than not at all. I think there is perhaps not a threshold black/white but a gradual grey beginning with just one step being better than nothing.. however to feel the full optimal benefits that requires more. I suspect ldn is similar, and some may just have to start out at a lower dose and work up to their optimal.. which, if in poor condition, may possibly be lower than 3mg. I think one factor would have to be the level of their receptors, which may be more than usually downregulated, in which case less would produce a an equivalent percentage blocked.
> I don't understand how ldn works, and can't find it clearly written anywhere so far. I have studied the immune system at uni at a basic level though, and will continue to try and fathom out some acceptable "theory" at least for myself.
> Although I couldn't say how ldn precisely works, I do think people can obtain some benefits at suboptimal(lower)doses though- as in running or any physical activity, and these benefits may make all the difference in allowing them to obtain more in other ways. Eg low dose ldn may allow them to exercise more without getting tired or in pain..allowing a build up from the exercise together wirth the ldn being additive, even synergistic. I think it's a mistake to just consider one thing alone.
> Also I don't think you require (or even if) a total receptor blockout happens(it's more percentage blocked I would have thought)? I haven't come across any animal research where they have examined the receptors for that assumption to be made?
> Hope we can agree to disagree:) and thanks for your help on the India ldn, much appreciated. Great for an expert on chemistry to help out.
> Kind regards,
> Jan
> PS I know depression is not something ldn is designed to treat.. why I think it may help some on here who ALSO have other symptoms such as fatigue or pain and other symptoms , concomittent with their depression is a long story.. based on my own story as well as numerous others I have read :) If you have depression/anxiety and nothing else I too doubt ldn would help.
> I know there is a belief in medicine that depresson/anxiety can cause these other symptoms like fatigue. This "belief" is aided by the treatment(like anti D's) also benefitting the other symptoms.
> For me, this should not rule out the possibility of another common cause.. like an undiscovered low level immune problem or similar which may be the cause of the depression, as well as the other symptoms.
> I believe I have in my lifetime experienced depression and anxiety which were not linked to anything else as well as having later in life at least an undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid problem which caused the fatigue etc and made me "depressed"..and also responded to an extent to antiD's, more so initially (first few years).
> It seems to me that this later autoimmune problem may have been able to be resolved with ldn if caught early enough, if ldn works as the promise of it seem to imply. I therefore thought, for some, if they also have other problems (as many on here seem to), it may be worthwhile them considering looking at ldn. Hope this makes sense.
> And thanks again for your help with the solubility.***********************************************
Yes.
Perfect sense.
My point exactly.
If you are depressed or have anxiety due to an illness or disorder (I, for example, had super elevated hypercortisol-induced anxiety ... a very unique and rare form of Pseudo Cushing's to be precise - ended up in a special study at NIH Hospital in 12/2005). The severe anxiety (and severe insomnia and severe tinnitus and severe peripheral neuropathy pains and total hypogonadism, etc., etc., etc. wsere actually being CAUSED by the hypercortisolism. The supoer elevated hypercortisolism also greatly diluted and compromised my immune system. But I had NO anxiety condition. There was nothing going on in my life that caused ANY anxiety - and this all came out of no where (symtoms all hit over a 2 - 3 week period.
Following NIH, their recommended regimen immediately began working very positively on my hypercortisol problem and within a couple months I felt great (anxiety, insomnia both completely gone and other symptoms reduced by 50% or better - and continuing to slowly drop as my cortisol levels also slowly dropped. Had that procession continued I would be near cleared up completely by now (in my estimation).
But in July 208 I got a Respiratory Infection that was repeatedly tested by first my PCP and then by 2 specialists (who all kept running the same tests and getting negative answers and who all declined to run a fungal infection test.
After six months I was so sick that I threatened to sign myself into the hospital (had I gone to the ER, I would have been immediately admitted). He then decided, that, yews, maybe we should run a fungal infection test. That test process took 4 weeks because it takes the fungal cultures much longer to "mature".
And sure enough I had a (now)massive fungal infection (2 strains). One that had gone undiagnosed (for lack of a very simple "sputum test"). He panicked and put me on a very, very strong anti-fungal medication and set me up for 6 weeks later for a full-scale Bronchoscopy (operating room, fully knocked out, etc, as in addition to regular processes they were also going to take close to 25 tissue samples for biopsy.
Two weeks later he knew that the fungal infection was completely gone but that there was a ton of inflammation throughout the lungs still (but because of the hypercortisol problem couldn't utilize and prednisone or cortisone, etc. inhalers - but he put me on one that he assured me was free of any "artificial cortisol" type ingredients). Another five weeks later (2-days shy of 4 weeks exactly), I am at my Cushing's doctor's office and he gives me the bad new (this being May of 2009) that for the first time since 1/2006 my cortisol levels (24-hr UFCs) had gone UP instead of steadily down. In fact it had increased by 46%. As we went through the medications that I was on (I had also since developed a never-before-experienced rise in resting BP and Pulse rates), he exploded when he found out about the inhaler (it was actually a very strong form of a cortisone-based inhaler and I had been on it for about 5 months).
Then he saw the anti-fungal medication and that I had been on it roughly three months constantly at maximum dose. He then exploded even more at that point. This is apparently a very potent anti-fungal and you are supposed to take in in a 7 - 10 day cycle (which is normally strong enough to knock out anything). If by chance you DO need a 2nd doising, you are supposed to take like a week off for your kidneys.liver to recover and then do a 2nd cycle. Very, very rarely is a third dosing needed (again, after a 7 - 10 day recovery break).
And here I am on this medication for just shy of a full three months non-stop. And now my BP / Pulse levels are elevated to the edge of the "Cautionary" and "Bad" ranges and slowly continuing to climb. So I go to my PCP to get a referral to a Hypertension doctor. instead of doing so, he puts me on three DIFFERENT BP medications (all beta blockers) and yet a different medication(also a beta blocker) for Pulse reduction. Immediately I go into the mode of "Extreme Difficulty in Urinating (i.e., both in starting a stream and being VERY painful --- my PCP insists that side effect is NOT a side effect of any of those meds but its listed right in the warning pamphlets that they give you with the meds and also listed prominently on drugdigest.com). About two weeks later I began getting strong but intermittent pains in the "right flank area" (i.e., the area around the right kidney - only covering an area about the size of a dinner plate). The pains gradually increase in frequency until they are constant... and then start increasing in intensity. He then takes me off of the three BPs, but puts med on one single (and strong dose) beta blocker for the BP... and doubles my dosage for the Pulse reducing medication (even though it was doing its job just fine). For about 3 days there was some slight relief ion the "Difficulty Urinating" aspect, but it then gradually returned backto full strength.And the flank pain got to the point of being extremely painful constantly (other than late, late evening it was subsiding - which was - along with when it first started - caused me to believe it was being caused by the BP / Pulse medications.
So I got a referral to a Kidney / Hypertension specialist. He was not only shocked at the whole story, but especially so at the BP /Pulse medication regimens (and hinted very strongly thast he agreed with me that it was likely the cause of the problem - whatever it was.... but you know how doctors are. One is never going to come out and openly accuse another one. I found it interesting that he took me off both the BP & Pulse meds and started doing a series of advanced kidney testing procedures. So far, the most part of two days in Outpatient doing advanced kidney testing -- and so far EVERYTHING is coming back "negative" (puzzling to him because the various tests have - so far - shot down the two things that it might have been). I have one more "Test Day" here in a couple of weeks and if nothing positive by then, we'll probably be looking aty a kidney biopsy in February.
And couple points in all this is that, first of all, if the doctors were just more familiar with hypercortisolism and understand the damage that it does to your Immune System, they would have understood that it -right now until it gets built back up - takes me a lot longer to recover from things (I have had a flu bug last 3 months, when others in the family had it for a week or less). And iof doctors would do full range of tests and not "guess" what it may or may not have been, I would have been diagnose with the fungal infection probably 6 months earlier. And if I had been run through just one cycle of anti-fungal medication it wouldn't have screwed with my BP / Pulse. And if the BP & Pulse would have been just left alone with no meds at all, once the Respiratory Disorder would have runs it course I would have been back to my workouts (I am one ofthose weirdos who LOVES hard workouts - and varied ones) and my BP & Pulsewould have returned to just fine (prior to the Respoiratory Disorder - even at the height of my Cushing's disorder, I have always had VG to Excellent BP & Pulse levels! But then the massive amount (and strong dosages) of the BP & Pulse meds have clearly screwed up that right flank area (kidney?)... and I have gone from very good condition (working out hard and everything in early July 2008) to the point of barely being able to get around and in constant severe pain. Doctors' responseshave screwed up what was perfectly responding curative process.
So, I am taking the LDN primarily for the purpose of re-building the Immune System, first and foremost, and then hopefully also working on inflammation problems in the lungs and that right flank pain (if it turns out to just be inflammation that is), and healing nerve endings damage (peripheral neuropathy pains and tinnitus sounds). And as a secondary benefit, thereby clear up the slight amount of depression that i very occasionally fall into just in the melancholy of how long this has been going on --- and just being one thing after another. As to anxiety, there has been none of it at all. My NIH Regimen is still working fine with that and overall. As of August (for the first time since mid 2002) my cortisol levels have been solidly in the "normal range" (though they creates its own set of recovery problems as you develop certain symptoms because your body "got used to" th higher levels of cortisol and the body now views "normal levels" as being "waaayyyyy too low" -- and that process, of your body re-adjusting , can take up to 12 - 24 months!
(PC.... Not an easy disorder to deal wit... and clueless doctors have done nothing - except for the fantastic research-scientist-doctors at NIH) - but worsen things at every step of the "journey").
Posted by casse on January 4, 2010, at 18:12:06
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Elroy on January 2, 2010, at 16:32:10
I agree that LDN is not a firstline treatment for depression or anxiety.
I also don't care whether the way it makes me feel is placebo effect or not. I just wish that the "placebo effect" had been elevated mood instead of irritability and agitation. If that were the case I wouldn't care about the why, just about the results.
And I'm extatic that my exaggerated immune response to poison ivy has been helped by it. For the first time in many years I didn't look like a piece of wrinkled red leather this summer.
Thanks for posting all of those great links!
BTW, if you don't mind me asking, what originally generated your interest in LDN? Are you using it yourself or just an advocate?
Posted by Phillipa on January 4, 2010, at 20:18:41
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Elroy, posted by casse on January 4, 2010, at 18:12:06
All I can say is wow!!!! Phillipa
Posted by tea on January 6, 2010, at 16:46:58
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Elroy on January 4, 2010, at 14:45:31
Sorry I can't suggest anything to help. Thanks for sharing your "story". So sad, the mistakes part ("mutters under breath"- so frustrating that it occurs so often its almost typical and expected. Never heard your story, before (so I agree your unique!) but many others also with neg. consequences. Sigh. Too high cortisol is something I really no nothing about! I guess that doc tried to do something to help, but still!
I'm surprised your body had that inflammation with the already high cortisol, I'd though it would have helped the inflammation!- see I know nothing about it...:)
I had below optimal cortisol for a couple of years(after starting on thyoid meds, it's fairly common(at least it seems to occur with a minority of previous longer term hypothydoids.. those where it has developed over many years or decades) due to the sudden workload created by thryoid hormones in a weakened state)..
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/277255.html
I even used asthma puffers for the cortisol boost (as one way of boosting my levels quickly) at that stage.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/270754.html
It is very easy to get overhigh on cortisol though, at least for me, even tapering down (once got those lumps of fatpads on upper back at that stage - using hyrdrocortione for slightly too long)That was back on 2002-2003 ish, now I'm fairly right there I think, but I can't push myself to a full day's work and tire quickly. I'm pleased to hear your levels are now Normalised.
I've had so many people(way too many) I know being given unsuitable meds- both type and amounts by docs, I think it's worn me out in the past 6 years! (my parents included), and its difficult for them to learn to question what the doc prescribes. At last I have my Mum checking with her heart specialist before adding meds, similar to you maybe having to check with the NIH I guess. It's wrong that the patient should have to be reponsible and its difficult for the patient to do.. you'd expect the doc to check! Good pharmacists are also helpful(I have used them for support with my parents scripts), but again you have to find that rare? excellent one who also has the time to care.
I agree that adjusting to the lowered cortisol will take many months too.
Don't know if it may help, but one of my favourite supps over the years was milk thistle?(OK- I usually post on alter)
Posted by tea on January 6, 2010, at 22:35:18
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Elroy on January 4, 2010, at 14:45:31
ADD:
Don't know if it may help, but my favourite supps over the years were milk thistle AND lactoferrin ?(OK- I usually post on alter)Unsure, Lactoferrin may have been of help all the way, then again it may not have helped at all either, or made worse!
Still may be worth looking at , or asking about.
I also got some lactoferrin in some colustrum, whey protein mix which seemed to make me feel good at one stage.
Mind you I've only ever taken one bottle of each.. intermittently.I can see why you're trying ldn.
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