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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 5:32:09
Earlier this year, I tried adding Enada NADH to my supplement regime, as it had showed some rather encouraging efficacy in the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome, one of my multiple diagnoses. CFS can be very debilitating, as the fatigue triggered by even trivial exertion can be totally overwhelming. Despite that pattern, a CFS sufferer can develop greater resiliency by very carefully exercising and resting; exercising not to exhaustion, and resting before the fatigue hits. Using that model, I had improved considerably over a period of years, but by any definition, I was still disabled by the condition.
So, on Ron Hill's suggestion, I tried NADH. Ever since I've been on it, and with only one conditional issue to consider, I have yet to find myself overwhelmed by fatigue. That is, simply put, unprecedented. I have pushed myself harder than I have in years, since before CFS took over my life, and I haven't crashed yet.
The conditional factor to consider is adequate sleep. Without it, I do begin to crash, so it will remain a major focus of my decisions. I went through a period of drug-withdrawal rebound insomnia, and it hurt me. But once I got that cleared up, I began to feel restored again.
So, here I am taking NADH for CFS, but I've noticed other changes which correlate with NADH use. I don't *know* that they're caused by my taking NADH, but they are substantial changes, each one unprecedented in my life, and only occurring coincident with my NADH use. They are:
1. Reduction in the tendency to sunburn. I'm a classic redhead, capable of getting a painful sunburn in as little as ten minutes. I used to joke that they developed sunscreen for me, personally. Even with SPF30, I could get sunburned in a couple of hours. I can sunburn in the shade of a tree, from light reflecting off the nearby lake. I sunburn through closed windows in a vehicle. I'm sure you get the picture.
This year, however, I have yet to get a sunburn. Period. And I have used sunscreen only once. I just haven't bothered. I haven't felt the need. I put on shorts for the first time, went out at midday to go shopping, and didn't get a hint of a burn. No complaints, but....<shrug>
2. Reduction in hayfever symptoms. I'm allergic to tree pollen, grass pollen, moulds, ragweed.... I've been in the formal care of an allergist (specialist MD) for many years, and I've tried desensitizing shots and experimental drugs etc., but nothing really changed. I have had to take twice the recommended dose of antihistamines, and use topical steroids (eye drops and nasal sprays), all my adult life. Without them, I can't even see, let alone stop sneezing/blowing my nose.
Not this year. I mostly forget to even use the antihistamine, and haven't touched the steroids once. I used to be able to tell you the species that was pollinating, just by time of year and my symptoms (no kidding!). When barley, wheat, or field corn started pollinating, I had to stay indoors. It just isn't a problem, this year.
3. Virtual elimination of asthma. My asthma is really a complication of my extensive allergy to inhaled irritants, but I'm also reactive to other substances than merely pollen and spores. To control the inflammation and mucus formation, I've relied on pretty much the maximum allowable doses of inhaled steroids. Whatever keeps me breathing, right?
This year, the only times I've used my steroid inhalers is when low-level ozone is high. Ozone at the surface of the Earth is caused by photochemical smog, which arises when there are a combination of precursors in the air, and the right weather (which is common in summer). Mix nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons, and water vapour in warm air, and add ultraviolet light, and one product is ozone. That's the stuff that causes your rubber bands to break, and plastic stuff to get brittle, and your garden hose to crack. Ozone is a profound respiratory irritant (along with nitrogen and sulphur oxides, also found in smog). So, when air quality is low, and health warnings are issued, I already knew about the problem. My asthma told me. But it seems that the allergens aren't triggering it this year. Just the pollutants/irritants.
Even with meds I've historically used every day, I'm really using them p.r.n. (as needed). That's just how my brain works. If I need them every day, I use them every day. So, it's easy for me to use less of a drug, if I don't sense that I need it. And I haven't needed them, this year.
All I know is that these are unprecedented and substantial changes, representing marked differences from my historical patterns. What works for me, though, may not work for you. That's the problem with anecdotes. You can't find a pattern in one person's experience.
Just thought I'd share my experiences with everyone.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 5:49:09
In reply to musings about my experience with Enada NADH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 5:32:09
After describing the physical changes, I perhaps should have paused, and reflected on the mental changes, too.
The most predominant cognitive difference I have noted, coincident with the use of NADH, is a substantial improvement in memory/recall. I find myself able to recall peoples' names, even from long ago, which is an astounding thing for me to be able to do. I generally don't "do" names. They just don't stick in my brain, or go to a place I can't find later. But I'm retrieving them now.
Facts come easier to me as well. Over recent years, my spelling recall has suffered. I'd find myself looking up words than I "knew" how to spell. As a child, my nickname (one of them) was Webster. I won every spelling bee I ever entered. So, it was a little galling to have to look up words. I'm recalling them again. Words don't look "weird" (i.e. the "Is that right?" feeling) any more.
Memory is believed to have two forms. Facts, such as mathematical formulae, are stored in a different way than experiences (called episodic memory). Both are working better for me.
It may be a coincidence, but I also think my sense of humour is coming back (though that's pretty hard to assess). I'm more quick-witted, coming out with little comments that make people laugh, as we go about our day. That sort of thing.
Lar
Posted by mrporter1 on August 3, 2003, at 18:56:23
In reply to (addendum), posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 5:49:09
Larry,
I know you've done a lot of refining of dosage - can you speak to that?
Thanks!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 8:20:02
In reply to Re: (addendum), posted by mrporter1 on August 3, 2003, at 18:56:23
> Larry,
>
> I know you've done a lot of refining of dosage - can you speak to that?
>
> Thanks!!I take 5 mg NADH every 7-10 days. I also take niacinamide, such that I average about 250 mg/day. The niacinamide "stretches" the effectiveness of the NADH, IMHO, and has complementary activity.
Lar
Posted by Viridis on August 4, 2003, at 14:07:10
In reply to Re: NADH dose » mrporter1, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 8:20:02
I've found that Enada NADH seems to provide a mild "pick-me-up" when I'm feeling burned out, and haven't had any of the irritability issues that some people here have reported. I take 5 mg 2-3 X/week, and at this level of use it's pretty inexpensive.
Posted by KimberlyDi on August 4, 2003, at 15:14:00
In reply to musings about my experience with Enada NADH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 5:32:09
Larry,
I too have noticed a decrease in my allergies but not because of Enada NADH (I'll probably research that now). Rather, it's because of a healthier lifestyle and a better quality of sleep (thanks to trazadone and effexor). I get mentally & emotionally fatigued more than physical exhaustion because of the work I do. I'm 34 and I still require about 9 hours sleep a night to stay healthy.
I'm also being sunburned less, but that's because I've actually spent time outdoors this year. I have the beginnings of a nice tan! In the past, I was a hermit, white as can be, emerging rarely then hobbling back indoors to medicate my sunburned skin (and self-medicate my twisted up emotions). I'm one-half Norwegian and very fair-skinned.
It's amazing how, when you get it right, everything starts to fall into place.
I've seen your name several times and have the impression that your opinion is pretty much respected. Nice to meet you Larry.
KDi in Texas
Posted by daizy on August 5, 2003, at 11:59:43
In reply to musings about my experience with Enada NADH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 5:32:09
Would you reccomend it for anhedonia symptoms? Do you think it would be safe to take with a TCA, or purely as an alternative? I have started to take a vit B complex, waiting to see some changes, I hope!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:28:38
In reply to Re: musings about my experience with Enada NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by KimberlyDi on August 4, 2003, at 15:14:00
> Larry,
> I too have noticed a decrease in my allergies but not because of Enada NADH (I'll probably research that now). Rather, it's because of a healthier lifestyle and a better quality of sleep (thanks to trazadone and effexor). I get mentally & emotionally fatigued more than physical exhaustion because of the work I do. I'm 34 and I still require about 9 hours sleep a night to stay healthy.I'm glad you know that about yourself. Getting the sleep *you* need is of vital importance, IMHO. My own turnaround really started when I got adequate treatment for my chronic insomnia.
> I'm also being sunburned less, but that's because I've actually spent time outdoors this year. I have the beginnings of a nice tan! In the past, I was a hermit, white as can be, emerging rarely then hobbling back indoors to medicate my sunburned skin (and self-medicate my twisted up emotions). I'm one-half Norwegian and very fair-skinned.
I hear ya. Still, this is an unprecedented thing for me, not sunburning this year. Despite the chilly spring weather in Canada, I used to wear a short-sleeved shirt in March for brief periods just to start exposing my skin a bit. I had to plan all sun exposures, because if I burned, I'd have to start all over again.
I was out in shorts yesterday for hours, and my white legs did not burn. I did spend a lot of the day in dappled shade, but I was always near water, and I'd generally burn under those conditions, even with sunscreen. I'm not complaining, believe me. But I am a little baffled that things are so very different for me, this year.
> It's amazing how, when you get it right, everything starts to fall into place.
You suggest a very important consideration, that getting things right (leading to remission) has whole-body effects. I am doing better psychologically this year than I have been in many years.
> I've seen your name several times and have the impression that your opinion is pretty much respected. Nice to meet you Larry.
> KDi in TexasPleasure meeting you, too.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:33:43
In reply to Re: musings about my experience with Enada NADH, posted by daizy on August 5, 2003, at 11:59:43
> Would you reccomend it for anhedonia symptoms? Do you think it would be safe to take with a TCA, or purely as an alternative? I have started to take a vit B complex, waiting to see some changes, I hope!!
I find NADH to be energizing, and my ability to "experience" life, my hedonia, seems to be more powerful. There's a good chance it would help you to do the same.
I see no reason that there would be a risk in combining NADH with any med. My personal opinion is that psychotropic meds may actually place the body into nutritional stress (i.e. increase the physiological demand for nutrients). Perhaps some of the long-term side-effects of meds are due to depletions of nutrient stores?
I think everyone, literally everyone, should take B-complex supplements. There is no risk, and only potential benefit, arising from the practise.
Lar
Posted by daizy on August 6, 2003, at 13:08:51
In reply to Re: musings about my experience with Enada NADH » daizy, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:33:43
Thanks for your advise Larry, its always apreciated! I think I might give it a try, as Ive found somewhere that sells it here in the UK (for a change!!!)
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 16:02:08
In reply to Re: musings about my experience with Enada NADH » daizy, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:33:43
Larry,
Have you tried time-released vitamin B complex supplements before? And if so, and NADH is superior, what do you think could be going wrong with the body activating B3?
Have you tried B6 and/or its active co-enzyme PLP or P5P?
A non-time released megadose of B complexes will probably end up having most of it flushed out of the system, right?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 17:53:57
In reply to Re: musings about my experience with Enada NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 16:02:08
> Larry,
>
> Have you tried time-released vitamin B complex supplements before?I generally use a time-release. They cost about the same.
> And if so, and NADH is superior, what do you think could be going wrong with the body activating B3?
I can only speculate. The most common forms of supplemental B-vitamins are not active. They must be modified by enzymes to make them useful to the body.
In my own case, it seems obvious that something is awry in the activation process for B-3, whether a literal defect or bottleneck affecting rate.
One of the central roles of NADH is the formation of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), more or less the universal cellular energy storehouse. It would be ironic if ATP is required by the enzyme that activates B3 to NADH, would it not?
> Have you tried B6 and/or its active co-enzyme PLP or P5P?
I have never used the phosphated derivatives of pyrridoxine, due to cost and availability issues. I do take B6 regularly, however.
> A non-time released megadose of B complexes will probably end up having most of it flushed out of the system, right?
I wouldn't go so far as to say "most". Or, perhaps I should say that, ultimately, both timed release and regular B-complex supplements contribute to nutrient rich urine. It's just that the shape of the curve, the blood concentration spike, is a little more rounded in the time-release scenario (which is better.... but substantially better, I don't know).
One way of viewing the body is to consider it as a set of 17 adjoining compartments (some are organs, like the liver, whereas others might be muscle, or bone), separated by membranes which control diffusion between the compartments. Upon being absorbed by the body, nutrients enter the blood compartment. The moment the blood is enriched in a nutrient is the moment that the other compartments get a chance to take some up across their membranes. Meanwhile, the kidneys are doing their thing, and dumping dissolved stuff into urine from the blood that passes by their membranes. (The bright yellow stain in urine from B-complex is B2, while other B's are not pigmented.) The fact that you see the vitamins in urine is evidence that all the body's compartments are truly having access to the nutrients, as the common element is the presence in the blood. That's just what happens to water-soluble vitamins. The same goes for vitamin C.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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