![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 127 to 151 of 169. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 3:06:27
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » sigismund, posted by PartlyCloudy on August 4, 2010, at 17:42:58
I've never read a FAQ.
Perhaps some innate deviousness has made it natural for me to master the civility rules.
Just like home.
So, I'd (probably) know what was uncivil, and it would merely be a question of whether I was willing to do the public recant and repentance.
If you wrote to me arguing (as in "Darkness at Noon") that some greater good in which I believed justified my misrepresenting myself, or differently, if you were to argue that I had already misrepresented myself (not too hard) I would listen and perhaps agree.I grew up in a family where there were often correct and cold relations, so the civility rules seem to come naturally to me.
I remember Seldomseen's good post about form vs content, something about the spirit of the post is up to you.
That stung a bit, my spirit being what it is.
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 3:19:50
In reply to Re: The Question: ^^^Interesting^^^ » sigismund, posted by fayeroe on August 4, 2010, at 19:05:05
>He cut me off. That's not the way the world really works anymore, he continued. We are an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you are studying that reality judiciously, as you will, we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history, actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.
Is that postmodern?
Geez. That moment has passed perhaps?
Just so no one gets the impression that I am an anti-American monomaniac, I should recount what Niall Ferguson, the conservative economic historian, said about the current (dispiriting because the issues are not addressed) Australian election.
Something like....
Australia may well become an economic colony of China's. Maybe the best option for Australia is for it to be sold to China which will then put in the infrastructure.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 5, 2010, at 7:57:13
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » PartlyCloudy, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 3:06:27
> I've never read a FAQ.
> Perhaps some innate deviousness has made it natural for me to master the civility rules.
> Just like home.
> So, I'd (probably) know what was uncivil, and it would merely be a question of whether I was willing to do the public recant and repentance.
> If you wrote to me arguing (as in "Darkness at Noon") that some greater good in which I believed justified my misrepresenting myself, or differently, if you were to argue that I had already misrepresented myself (not too hard) I would listen and perhaps agree.
>
> I grew up in a family where there were often correct and cold relations, so the civility rules seem to come naturally to me.
> I remember Seldomseen's good post about form vs content, something about the spirit of the post is up to you.
> That stung a bit, my spirit being what it is.Ah. I hear you, Sig. (So often, much of the discussion sails right over my pointed head.) My family was a strange collection of forced happy faces, plastered over whatever we may have been genuinely feeling. Anything less than beaming sunshine-y smiles resulted in being sent to one's room. (I spent a lot of time there, as I was always the one to point out that there was an enormous elephant sharing the house with us, and it was taking up a lot of space.) Civility was not something that was apparent, as absolutely everything HAD to be Great! Lovely! Well Done! regardless of form or content. Crazy making for certain, at least for this member of the family. Consequently, and also as a result of my extensive (may I say exhaustive?) training to be the shortest-serving deputy in the history of Babble, I look for those references to the FAQs.
But, as Bob has also said with reference to civility, there are times when he knows it when he sees it. I mean you no slight in my pondering of what the original poster might have intended.
PartlyCloudy, bumbling.
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 8:13:09
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » PartlyCloudy, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 3:06:27
Seldomseen is very wise.
Muffled also influenced me a lot in that area.
In fact, Dr. Bob might have taught me a lot about civility, but other posters taught me a lot about generosity of spirit.
(Although I must confess that my OCD probably helps my good intentions. Cognitive dissonance makes me feel very anxious.)
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 15:36:57
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » sigismund, posted by PartlyCloudy on August 5, 2010, at 7:57:13
>My family was a strange collection of forced happy faces, plastered over whatever we may have been genuinely feeling.
I suppose it was that way until someone cracked?
A perfect preparation for an addiction.
It was with us.
I have to say that change only occurred when someone could no longer go on.
Then it came in an avalanche and it was time for ECT.
Not very flexible and adaptive :)
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 15:49:59
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » sigismund, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 8:13:09
>Cognitive dissonance makes me feel very anxious.
So you would perhaps not be keen on following two courses at once?
>When we wear out our minds, stubbornly clinging to one partial view of things, refusing to see a deeper agreement between this and its complentary opposite, we have what is called 'three in the morning'.>The truly wise man, considering both sides of the question without partiality, sees them both in the light of Tao.
This is called following two courses at once.I wonder how you would feel about something woolly like Hegel. (Not that I've bothered with him myself.) At least one of the academics being satirised in Alice in Wonderland would have been a Hegelian. Anyway, here is the relevant quote
>Oh, don't go on like that!' cried the poor Queen, wringing her hands in despair. `Consider what a great girl you are. Consider what a long way you've come to-day. Consider what o'clock it is. Consider anything, only don't cry!'
>Alice could not help laughing at this, even in the midst of her tears. `Can you keep from crying by considering things?' she asked.
>`That's the way it's done,' the Queen said with great decision: `nobody can do two things at once, you know. Let's consider your age to begin with -- how old are you?'
>`I'm seven and a half, exactly.'
>`You needn't say "exactly",' the Queen remarked. `I can believe it without that. Now I'll give you something to believe. I'm just one hundred and one, five months and a day.'
>`I ca'n't believe that!' said Alice.
>`Ca'n't you?' the Queen said in a pitying tone. `Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.'
>Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said `one ca'n't believe impossible things.'
>`I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There goes the shawl again!'
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 16:10:55
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dinah, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 15:49:59
Well, I wouldn't say that. I'm a big fan of dialectical behavior therapy.
I meant it more specifically. That it causes me distress when I post in a way that doesn't coincide with my view of myself.
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 19:03:20
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » sigismund, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 16:10:55
> I'm a big fan of dialectical behavior therapy.
Does the dialectic come into that?
People use the term dialectic in different ways, and I never understand what it means really.
I think it depends on how creative you are.
As in when Lenin said of Bukharin that despite his many good qualities and his popularity that he had never understood the dialectic.Or people might use the word to suggest a process that is not linear or circular perhaps.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 5, 2010, at 19:05:38
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » PartlyCloudy, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 15:36:57
> >My family was a strange collection of forced happy faces, plastered over whatever we may have been genuinely feeling.
>
> I suppose it was that way until someone cracked?I always thought that stuffing was what went into a roast goose until I started therapy :-)
>
> A perfect preparation for an addiction.Yes, there's an enormous family collection of us, for generations going back. If it wasn't an addiction, it was mental illness, or sometimes, a double whammy. The legacy is appalling.
>
> It was with us.
> I have to say that change only occurred when someone could no longer go on.
> Then it came in an avalanche and it was time for ECT.
> Not very flexible and adaptive :)I forget if you do hugs or not. I don't want to presume.
pc
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 19:10:49
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » sigismund, posted by PartlyCloudy on August 5, 2010, at 19:05:38
>I forget if you do hugs or not. I don't want to presume.
I just do what the natives do, generally :)
(PC)
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 5, 2010, at 19:54:21
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » PartlyCloudy, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 19:10:49
(Sig)
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
In reply to Ron's 3 wk blk. Please, a show of hands of all the, posted by fayeroe on August 2, 2010, at 1:30:47
> I feel that the statement is manipulative, stomach roiling, disgusting, childish, childish, childish
I'd like to ask anyone who gives a sh*t about fayeroe -- or objects to blocks in general -- to do what they can to try to prevent another block.
Protests haven't proved all that effective at preventing blocks and may even encourage behaviors that lead to them. You have the right to protest (as long as you're civil), but if your goal is to prevent another block, please consider a different strategy.
Bob
--
> You all seen my 6 week ban ... i recieved e mails from babbler,s saying sorry for the ban.But only a couple spoke on babble. That speak,s to me as you wanted me banned, or you didnt give a sh*t. I think thats what bob means about helping each other. The Block didnt hit me hard but the lack of support did.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20100716/msgs/956872.html
> You have the power to pick your battles.
>
> Battling Dr. Bob on PB Admin? Generally results in frustration and effects on policy ranging from
> - none
> - the exact opposite of what you intended to accomplish
> - some other seemingly random policy change that isn't what you wanted.
>
> Choose wisely!http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090302/msgs/893534.html
Posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 20:36:55
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
> > I feel that the statement is manipulative, stomach roiling, disgusting, childish, childish, childish
>
> I'd like to ask anyone who gives a sh*t about fayeroe -- or objects to blocks in general -- to do what they can to try to prevent another block.
>
> Protests haven't proved all that effective at preventing blocks and may even encourage behaviors that lead to them. You have the right to protest (as long as you're civil), but if your goal is to prevent another block, please consider a different strategy.
>
> Bob
>
> --
>
> > You all seen my 6 week ban ... i recieved e mails from babbler,s saying sorry for the ban.But only a couple spoke on babble. That speak,s to me as you wanted me banned, or you didnt give a sh*t. I think thats what bob means about helping each other. The Block didnt hit me hard but the lack of support did.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20100716/msgs/956872.html
>
> > You have the power to pick your battles.
> >
> > Battling Dr. Bob on PB Admin? Generally results in frustration and effects on policy ranging from
> > - none
> > - the exact opposite of what you intended to accomplish
> > - some other seemingly random policy change that isn't what you wanted.
> >
> > Choose wisely!
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090302/msgs/893534.htmlI used an "I" statement and described how a STATEMENT caused me to feel. How is that not civil?
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:45:50
In reply to Re: another block » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 20:36:55
> I used an "I" statement and described how a STATEMENT caused me to feel. How is that not civil?
The FAQ links to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:10:12
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
Bob said "I'd like to ask anyone who gives a sh*t about fayeroe -- or objects to blocks in general -- to do what they can to try to prevent another block."
I feel very privileged to have really good friends here at Babble. We've stood together, we've agreed and disagreed and then came together concerning one huge point of contention here.....the block system and how we've been told to help another poster avoid being blocked.
There have been countless heartfelt statements here about the feelings that the "suggestion" stirs within us. None of us who posted about it held back. We've listed many, many negative and hurtful feelings that come out when we read the "suggestion" that we're offered when that old block time rolls around.
I know how you feel about it! You know how I feel about it!
I do not want any one of you to feel that because you do give a "s*it" about me, you should ignore what we've posted. I do not want you to compromise your integrity by trying to talk me into doing something to avoid a block.
I want you to "stand tall" in front of your keyboard. Be proud! Remember being in the Scouts, remember the Alamo, remember Bluebirds, Campfire Girls and remember to NOT step in.
Undoubtedly some of us spilled secret feelings that we've had when we've read the "suggestion". I know I did. We have enough feelings from our past to last us a lifetime, don't compound them by giving into "giving a s*it about Fayeroe".
My user name comes from the one of the most wonderful dogs that I have been privileged to have in my life. She was killed by my neighbor after he assaulted me in 2009. Fayeroe had fought off two burglars in 2004 (at age 2) and received 4 life-threatening stab wounds. Fayedy was the bravest dog that I've ever known. I believe that Fayeroe was needed in another place and that she guards and supports while she does her job. I know that she still guards me. I feel her spirit near me.
I taught Faye to find pot and cocaine while we lived in Oklahoma. We were going to move into cadaver recovery but we moved to Texas and I dropped those plans. She was so smart. It took her 10 days to learn to find pot. 4 days on the coke. Drug searches are dangerous at times and I decided that we would not be "on call" when the local police department was overloaded.
"Faye" is for a past president of Planned Parenthood. I was honored to serve on the board of directors of the OKC chapter of Planned Parenthood for 5 years while she was our national director. "Roe" is for, naturally, roe. vs. wade. Fayeroe!
Fayeroe was loyal, strong, sweet, silly (had a stub tail that wagged her butt) and compassionate. She picked up a baby duck at our creek one day and I yelled "no" and she gently set it back down on the ground. The duckling ran to the creek, jumped in and swam away with it's siblings. As far as I know, Fayedy never hurt anything intentionally. She didn't mind it when the little terrier, Lita, came to live with us and she loved our cats. She allowed the toads, in both gardens, to live without fear of her. She might stop and look but she did not touch them.
I'm proud of my user name just like I'm proud of Faye's spirit.
She is gone but her spirit remains.
Posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:14:01
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:10:12
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:50:58
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
Dr. Bob, why did you phrase it that way? Don't you know that there are many of us who care about Fayeroe but don't feel that what you request is the best way to show it to *her* (as opposed to you)?
I just don't understand. People have expressed their feelings about the phrasing pretty strongly. Yet all you see is whether or not they give a sh*t about Fayeroe?
I may well have phrased my own objections in a less than politic fashion myself, and if so I'm sorry. But I hope you heard what I was saying as well as the way I said it.
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:54:27
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
Hmmm... Never mind. I see you did, at least in part.
But do you perhaps see why doing what you wish would not feel caring to Fayeroe? When you give the gift of caring, you kind of have to keep the recipient in mind.
Posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:55:29
In reply to Re: another block » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:50:58
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:56:14
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:10:12
I love the stories of Fayeroe the dog.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2010, at 1:10:36
In reply to Re: another block » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:54:27
> If his goal is to have posters take more responsibility for site civility, I'm not sure it is achievable. But I do think that this isn't the way to attempt it, and I wish he'd abandon one that hasn't produced the results he'd want.
>
> If his goal is more limited, to having posters recognize that they are not powerless in the face of the blocks they later protest, I also think this isn't the best choice of words. I think if that is his goal, he ought to just say "People protest blocks, but I don't see many people trying to prevent them. In fact, sometimes I see people encouraging the behaviors that lead to blocks and then complaining that the blocks are unfair. I'd like anyone who objects to blocks to do what they can to prevent them in ways other than protesting the blocks. There are other methods than protests, and they may be more effective. Protesting hasn't proved all that effective."
>
> Dinah> only a couple spoke on babble. That speak,s to me as you wanted me banned, or you didnt give a sh*t. I think thats what bob means about helping each other. The Block didnt hit me hard but the lack of support did.
>
> manic666Thanks for understanding, and for suggesting how I might rephrase my requests.
--
> Now as a psychiatrist dont you think to block someone who may not be talking an posting with a clear head is dangerouse to there health,All kinds of damage may follow. the blocked person may become more unwell ,his or her family may suffer, all sorts o f thing could go wrong
>
> manic666I know things could go wrong for the poster. That's why I'd like to see blocks prevented! And why I remind people:
> > In a crisis, please also get help in person.
And why I like that listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
--
> > If anyone starts being unpleasant, the other members calmly convey the message that that isn't appropriate there
>
> Would not such an act here be looked upon as being accusatory?
>
> - ScottMaybe not if it uses I-statements. For example, based on an example I proposed over a year ago:
> > Fayeroe, I'm worried that Dr. Bob isn't going to like what you posted. I care about you, and you're important to this community. Maybe being blocked doesn't bother you, but would you consider apologizing for my sake? I feel sad and traumatized every time he blocks one of us.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090529/msgs/905410.html
--
> I find it extremely difficult to do something that someone tells/asks me to do when the "request/guilt/manipulation is upsetting my stomach.
>
> fayeroe> Dinah has been right, surely, about the shaming quality of the requests.
>
> sigismund> My therapy involves accepting that my emotions are a normal reaction to how my parents treated me as a child. That is healing, and that promotes changes in my outlook on life as opposed to someone telling me ... that I am somehow flawed in my way of experiencing the world..rather than someone who has inner pain to work through.
>
> as you probably could picture, being told "if only you were more like Dinah"...might bring up feelings from growing up ... which are very damaging to one's mental health.
>
> violetteI agree, some people may be in too much pain to help others. One of the advantages of a community, however, is that other members may be able to.
I haven't meant to imply that everyone should be more like Dinah -- or like me, for that matter. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. It may be difficult and even triggering, but acknowledging a weakness could mean an opportunity to learn from someone with a strength.
> > Replace shame with mature guilt. Guilt has often received bad press, and well it should--if, and only if, you are talking about neurotic guilt--guilt that self-flagellates and changes nothing. If you are talking about mature guilt, then guilt is one of the great inventions of nature. For mature guilt lets you know what is unacceptable, and offers you opportunity to do something about it. Shame, on the other hand comes to you as a feeling so deep and so incapable of your getting a grasp on it that it seems there is nothing you can do. To illustrate: John feels shame that he is not the sort of person who can ever excel at his work. Whatever happens, a demotion, a "blowing-out" by his boss, he senses that this is because he is "basically inadequate," so he hangs his head and lowers his eyes and dampens his energy. Finding the "smarts" and the courage to re-evaluate himself as "guilty" of inertia and poor training, he begins to create and achieve goals that are possible for him. So if he sets certain standards, and then if he doesn't achieve them, he can rightly feel guilty that he is failing and can increase his efforts to succeed, or redefine his goals. He has moved into consciousness that his worth can be defined by realistic possibilities, not by the un-focused and "hidden" demands of shame-making expectations.
http://www.psychsight.com/ar-shame.html
--
> I think the way he expressed his emotion through songs was healthy and has contributed to his self-growth in a positive way.
> When some people are brought up not allowed to express emotions, I think it's better to express them in that way vs. keeping them inside.
> I probably need to remind myself more often this forum isn't a therapist's office.
>
> violetteExactly, it can be therapeutic to express oneself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
--
> Bob, I sure hope that you don't teach classes and use the tactics that you are attempting to use on us.
>
> I think Bob could say "Student A, you are failing this class".
>
> I think that Bob might then say "Class, if Student A fails this class, I will see you as responsible for not trying to help him avoid failing the class".
>
> fayeroeAre posters competing for a good "grade" from me? Is that why they're not helping each other more? This isn't that kind of class. I'd like everyone to pass this class. It's OK to help each other here.
--
> do you perhaps see why doing what you wish would not feel caring to Fayeroe?
>
> DinahLike someone who's drunk doesn't feel it's caring not to be allowed to drive?
Bob
Posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 3:01:14
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:10:12
I suppose the hitch is that you see the apology thing as (at least like) a device to stir us up.
Now Alex managed to get away with saying that these requests made her skin crawl....
>Reading the above phrase results in my skin crawling. Then I get a shuddering sensation. Then I feel angry and a little like throwing up. Every time. Without fail. Lets see if I can articulate why...but you did not get away with saying (but what? I don't have it here, but there was manipulative, childish and at least something else).
Alex's statement was really strong. Feel like throwing up? Shuddering? OK. It was OK. For some reason.
Not give a sh*t?
Your anger is what informs some of the best of you
Remember caraher saying 'You are a great American patriot'?
I will really miss you when you're gone, as I did before you came back.I don't understand why this has to happen, and I wish it didn't.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2010, at 6:18:15
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob, posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2010, at 1:10:36
> > do you perhaps see why doing what you wish would not feel caring to Fayeroe?
> >
> > Dinah
>
> Like someone who's drunk doesn't feel it's caring not to be allowed to drive?I don't see the analogy.
Perhaps you could change your request to "For those who see this as driving drunk, and who give a sh*t about Poster X...."
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 6, 2010, at 7:09:33
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
How about those of us who see your request as a personal attack against Fayeroe? Or as an attempt to manipulate us as posters? I would like to defend her against such an attack, but I don't think that bowing to your request would be the moral solution.
Stand tall, Fayeroe.
The dance of words, as Sigismund has indicated, is a difficult one. Those "I" statements are mere rearrangements of letters on the screen, but should not be undertaken if they corrupt your meaning, IMO.
PartlyCloudy
Posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 10:26:48
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob, posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2010, at 1:10:36
"> Bob, I sure hope that you don't teach classes and use the tactics that you are attempting to use on us.
>
> I think Bob could say "Student A, you are failing this class".
>
> I think that Bob might then say "Class, if Student A fails this class, I will see you as responsible for not trying to help him avoid failing the class".
>
> fayeroeAre posters competing for a good "grade" from me?
I'm not and I don't believe any of the posters that I "know" are.
Is that why they're not helping each other more?
No.
This isn't that kind of class. I'd like everyone to pass this class. It's OK to help each other here.
No one that I know here thinks they are in class. We do help one another here. We do it in individual ways. We're adults.
--
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