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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 85 to 109 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 18:14:48
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:06:46
Yes - that is a large part of it.
That one in particular really upset me and I still get upset when I think about it - like now.
So - I'm signing off for now.
Posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 18:16:33
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:06:46
I still believe in my heart that Larry meant no harm and was only tired as he said and hurting in his own way too. I still believe the block is much too long. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 18:31:45
In reply to Too afraid to get help, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 8:23:02
How many fingers does a man have?
How many on 10 hands?
-------------------------------------------
Manipulation is not the best of words.
Delusional is not the best of words.
Paranoia is not the best of words.
If you called someone paronoid and delusional, its not the best of compliments.
If you called someone maipulative its not the best of compliments.
However if someone is paronoid and delusional (in psychiatric terms) they could quite possibly be viewed as Schizophrenic, or psychotic - take the tic away you have psycho - add babble and here we are ;-)
I think maipulation is everywhere, absolutely everywhere..turn on the T.V and you see an advert about some latest product, low and behold you have manipulation in the form of selling. Gene therapy. Putting a dam to block the flow of water - you're manipulating the flow of water. Take a psychiatric drug - you're manipulating your own body and brain chemistry. Loads of examples, but its late and i'll probably sound excentric if I continue.
Back to my main point though, like that of the delusional or manipulation. To the person suffering delusions it will seem very real indeed by the nature of it, in fact it is real to them.
Manipulation from the perspective of borderline (from what I understand) is that to them, they are not trying to 'manipulate' anyone, with regards to certain aspects of the word and illness. To the outside non-borderline - they often see the behaviour as manipulative.
I think its very hard to generalise over such things in an evironment such as this. However at the best we can gain a deeper understanding of the issue. Which should not be ignored, rather than help the person to deal with the issue in hand. In doing so people (Larry) got blocked but with the best intentions at heart. I truely think that psycho-babble socialas an online forum, like everything else in life has its limits.
Where speech is limited, and resources are text within a message, the limits that this has, means that for some people, outside resources in certain situations, suicide etc are clearly what need to be addressed as means for help, treatment and overall best outcome - outside this environment. It does say when you sign up, it might make you worse here, or something along those lines...
-------------------------------------------------
You might not view my question as manipulative - but it was if you got it wrong the first time. And I intended it to be....I was being manipulative...Maybe you fell in the trap and said 100 hundred because of the manipulative nature of the question...maybe it was obvious for some lolMaybe the word Manipulation in BPD means onething for someone - but is double dutch to another.
Totally nothing to do with anything, but I always thought and was under the impression that their is a patient and someone who treats the patient, i.e a doctor, nurse etc.
A client and consumer - now we're talking business?...now we're talking £$€ - and of course in doing so theres going to be manipulation with a client in some respects to get a sale....sometimes its obvious, cleverly done though its not, its not really even manipulation, probably because both parties are profiting - look at this site, people get "support and education" Dr Bob gets links to his book, possibly sales, research etc - highly gooable links too. To both parties.
Time for bed.
-------------------------------------------------
If you answered 8 or 10 for the first question you was correct.
If you answered 100 for the second you was wrong.
;-)
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 18:48:22
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 18:16:33
I agree completely.
And I think six weeks is disgusting.
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 18:51:00
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » wildcard, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:58:43
We all have our own opinions re: this situation. It is all around unfortunate and has hurt so many. I am open minded to other opinions but stand by mine.
>>i think the block is INTENDED to prevent them from doing further harm IN THE SENSE of continuing to be uncivil.
I see exactly what you are saying, however I feel that what is intended isn't necessarily the reality. I don't as well as many others think that Lar meant any harm and although what he said was not right, I stand by my opinion that a 6 week block is unwarranted.
**and in fact can cause them harm
>> i don't think that is intended either....
once again, it may not be intended but this site is for support of all sorts of things and the intentions aren't always the reality.
>> and the possible harm to others who read the post...
As it has been stated before, we choose which posts to read. I have read a post w/o a trigger that had things I disagreed with or upset me so I chose to walk away. That entire thread upset many even w/o reading it way before Lar said what he did.
>>i think...
the blocks / pbc's here are fairly much predictable.Predictable, yes. IMO blocks and PBC's are NOT equal and fair majority of the time. I have taken huge steps back and just payed attention and IMO, rules are not followed to a T for every babbler.
>>okay... lets suppose teh blocking system took into account how long people have been here and whether they tend to post helpful posts or not and how helpful their posts are etc etc.
I don't feel it is necessarily about 'how long' at all but the punishment vs the crime.
>>if all that was taken into account...
>>do you think it would be possible (in practice) to have a system that was perceived as fair with fairly predictable consequences for saying certain sorts of things?I don't think it is working all that well as it is. There can always be room for improvement. In this 'individual' situation, Lar exhausted himself trying to help, maybe saving someone from something no one would want. That was not focused on what so ever though. I think it should have been but that's my opinion.
It's a very sad and upsetting situation and instead of helping, it is times like this when I personally feel this site can be more hurtful than helpful. Just me and how I feel about it. I am now gonna say night as I have to focus on me right now. Take care and goodnight.
Posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 19:00:30
In reply to Answer this question as Fast as you can!, posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 18:31:45
oh, this has to be the grimmest, grimmest thread i have ever read.
Now therapy has never worked for me. And psycho-babble as a kind of therapy... well, these are my memories of group therapy. People would get upset, accusatory. People would leave the room and spend several hours in a 'safe' environment. But at least there was no danger of suicide.
I feel, I really feel that blocks can be dangerous to the person being blocked.
I feel that we dissimulate for a reason: to keep ourselves alive. Becoming callous serves the same purpose. We manipulate the environment via technology. We are even better at manipulating others, and sometimes we manipulate ourselves.
I think that Larry is a stronger, more compassionate person than I am. I will walk away from others when they are in need. None of these things will ever get me blocked, so callousness and dissimulation are clearly adaptive behaviors.
There's something about the way my sympathetic nervous system has been activated as I've made myself read this thread through. It is causing a knot in the pit of my stomach, and a constant, dull pain in my chest.
-z
Posted by lynn971 on January 6, 2006, at 19:01:47
In reply to Answer this question as Fast as you can!, posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 18:31:45
their share of hurt. Some have had more than their share. I hope the Deneb has a wonderful life and that she deals with the issues that plague her effectively and totally.
I personally like Lar very much. I am not saying that I agree with what Larry said, but when someone tells me something that I dont like I process it. I ask myself, "Is what they told me true?" If it is, I deal with it. If it is not true, I just try my best to disregard what was said.
"Better are the wounds brought on by a friend than the kisses of an enemy." (paraphrased -proverbs) I rather that a good friend tell me something about myself that will help me even if it hurt at the time.
Maybe Larry was just using "tough love." I dont think that we should be too hard on him.
Remember, everyone here suffers with some type of mental illness. We all hurt.
Luv ya,
Lynn
Posted by Declan on January 6, 2006, at 19:13:53
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:59:21
Hey Alex
I disagree with something you said. The is no excuse for lashing out at people. No problem at all. But to say there is no excuse for judging them?? I don't like people being judgmental at all, but we can't avoid judgment as such. It's one of our important faculties, if that's the right word. That doesn't mean we should not try to be kind and sympathetic, of course. OTOH I think we are right to fear what others think of us, in the sense that we're a scary species.
Declan
Posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 19:34:50
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by Declan on January 6, 2006, at 19:13:53
I think we are right to fear what others think of us, in the sense that we're a scary species.>>
we are not made less scary by being civil.
i find my sanity rattled by this place, because the dreadful thought comes out of nowhere from time to time that lynchings, too, can be done civilly. Shirley Jackson's "Lottery" is a scary story about a civil society.
Kindness and sympathy are one thing, civility another. but kindness and sympathy wear our souls out. and they can't be defined, they can only be shown. or not shown.
a viscerality about kindness that doesn't sit well with people. we are wise to fear one another.
-z
Posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 20:15:48
In reply to Re: Answer this question as Fast as you can!, posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 19:00:30
Plus i've got insomnia...
Anyway when I said -
look at this site, people get "support and education" Dr Bob gets links to his book, possibly sales, research etc - highly gooable links too. To both parties.
It may have looked like I agreed that Lar should have been blocked - which is not what I meant.
I havent got a clue how to resond to this thread. The block can't be reversed.
When E-therapy gets confused with support and education which gets confused with civilness - is this the result?
My best to Larry.
I think I need a break too.
Posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 20:21:17
In reply to Re: Everyone on these boards have had, posted by lynn971 on January 6, 2006, at 19:01:47
The way I see it, this is Dr. Bob's board. What right do we have to make demands on how his website should be run? If he wanted, he could say, no one can use words that start with the letter 'W'. If we don't like it, we can leave.
As for Deneb :-) I believe there is a reason behind her behavior. I don't know what it is, but she's pretty consistant, wouldn't you say? I hope something someone has said will help her in real life. But it's up to her whether or not she uses any info she's gained here. No one can 'make' her do it. Its up to us whether we choose to read and/or reply to her posts. She can't 'make' us do that.
A long time ago I decided to read the posts I chose to, and not feel guilty about those I skip. I think this enables me to give support to those I can, and leave the others for someone else to try. This way I don't spread myself too thin, making me no help to anyone. Its just not possible to read all the posts and be there for everyone. And if I don't feel up to dealing with an emotional post, I don't read it . I'd rather leave it for someone who feels equiped to handle it at that particular time.
None of us here are trained professionals or claim to be. We don't know the correct way to deal with a suicidal person or anything like that. All we can do is be there for someone to talk to. People will either take our advice or not. There's only so much you can do from behind your keyboard.
The thing is, the people here are so-o-o, so-o-o passionate! They really put their heart into things. Its one of the reason's I love this place. Its also why so many people get hurt.
I hope this doesn't sound bossy or like I'm a know it all or anything (I always feel like I sound that way). I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject. I know I'm not perfect, and my way may not be the way for everyone. Take it for what its worth.
-T
Posted by lynn971 on January 6, 2006, at 20:47:15
In reply to Just my opinion..., posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 20:21:17
I think that what you said makes a lot of sense.
:-)
Lynn
Posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 21:05:38
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » TexasChic, posted by lynn971 on January 6, 2006, at 20:47:15
> I think that what you said makes a lot of sense.
>
> :-)
> LynnThank you! Sometimes I get panicky that I'm going to be misunderstood. I appreciate the reassurance.
-T
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 21:11:21
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » lynn971, posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 21:05:38
I think you sounded okay also. You say what you feel and I thinks that's a good thing!
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 21:27:28
In reply to Just my opinion..., posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 20:21:17
Well, I'm not sure about the Dr. Bob part, I think he has a responsibility to those he has attracted to his site. It is after all for the mentally ill.
However I'm in complete agreement with the rest of your post and am glad you said it.
Sometimes it's wiser to walk away, and kinder than to reach out when you aren't able to take the risk that things might not go as you planned.
Posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 21:29:07
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » TexasChic, posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 21:11:21
> I think you sounded okay also. You say what you feel and I thinks that's a good thing!
Thank you! IRL, I have a tendency to blurt out whatever I'm thinking (at least here I can reread things a couple of times before I send it). Some people accept this trait as part of who I am and understand I would never say anything intentionally hurtful. Some people get mad. People seem to either get me, or they don't. Oh well, at least its better than being boring!
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 21:33:28
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » TexasChic, posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 21:11:21
yeah i think a lot of people are making a lot of sense...
i don't suppose i have any right to make suggestions about the running of the boards...
but i make them anyway :-)
and i really appreciate and respect the fact that dr-bob doesn't mind us making suggestions and he takes the time to read them even if he never actually implements them. and sometimes... well sometimes he does implement them.
i think...
that like he says in the faq's...
he is trying to moderate the boards in a way that is best for the community.
he isn't perfect...
but i do have faith that he is well intentioned in that respect.
but of course you can have the best intentions in the world and still be misguided...
and that is why i appreciate that he takes the time to listen to us and to think about what we say.one thing i've noticed...
some people don't seem to have this view of what he is trying to do.
and if you don't have this view of what he is trying to do...
then you don't really look for the sense behind the blocks.
i mean...
i suppose there are benefits to that in a way.
the blocked poster didn't do anything wrong...
dr-bob is just being a meanie
making arbitrary decisions that make no sense.and given some peoples histories
where consequences for actions were somewhat random or fulfilled the changing desires / goals of other people
that attitude is fairly understandable.but...
i think the pbc's / blockings are fairly predictable...
i bet dinah can predict them fairly well
(she is able to give them and doesn't seem to disagree with bob on them toooooo much)
same with ggso is this a mass capricious delusion?
or is there actually a sense in the blocking system?
of course...
seeing the sense in the blocking system is one thing...
agreeing with the blocking system is another...
but if you can come up with a better one...
my guess is dr bob would be pleased to hear it.
coming up with a better fairer or more sensible alternative might well be harder than you think...but of course you can bypass all that
by thinking dr bob is just a big meanie
and the blocking system makes no sensei do think...
that one tends to be happier here
happier with the system
happier with dr-bob
get along happier with others
post posts that are more likely to leave others feeling happier if one embraces the system rather than seeing it as an enemy...that is not to say that it is perfect...
but i will say it is one of the better systems i have seen...
and maybe something that is more unique to me...
i don't see it as a matter of translating uncivil thoughts into civil words in order to avoid a blocking...
i see it as a matter of uncivil thoughts being unhelpful thoughts (thoughts that are likely to result in hurt to another)
and so why persist in uncivil thoughts when there are civil alternatives?why?
i dunno whether this applies to all cases of pbc's / blockings (politics springs to mind...)
but...
i'm trying to see the sense...
why?
because i think i feel happier for it
and i think it is more charitable to dr-bob
and i choose to believe he is doing his best...
Posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 21:40:43
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » TexasChic, posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 21:27:28
> Well, I'm not sure about the Dr. Bob part, I think he has a responsibility to those he has attracted to his site. It is after all for the mentally ill.
>
> However I'm in complete agreement with the rest of your post and am glad you said it.
>
> Sometimes it's wiser to walk away, and kinder than to reach out when you aren't able to take the risk that things might not go as you planned.Thanks! And what you said about Bob is true too. Its a sticky situation.
I never mind challanges to my opinions. I by no means think I know everything about anything. I learn from other people. How are you going to experience new ideas if you don't give serious thought to other peoples opinions?
I hate it when someone just agrees with me without giving it any thought. By expressing a different opinion, I feel it shows the person thinks I'm intelligent enough to consider different viewpoints. I hate when someone tells me what they think I want to hear.
Okay, once I start getting all deep and philisophical I know I'm getting drunk. I better stop now.
-T
Posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 21:55:22
In reply to Re: Just my opinion..., posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 21:33:28
> i dunno whether this applies to all cases of pbc's / blockings (politics springs to mind...)
>
I've been thinking about this in reference to politics too. I was thinking how sometimes a law gets someone who has good intentions and everyone knows it, but it has to be emplemented if you want to be able to use it on the people who really deserve it too. You can't just use it only when you agree with the situation. Its the only way to keep things impartial and fair.I find that a big problem with this country (US). People are all gung-ho (is that really a word?) when something 'they want' is being inforced. But when you use the same reasoning against something they don't want, they suddenly get all indignent.
Okay, I said I was going to stop and go to bed, so now I am. Why do I get philsophical and political when I'm drunk. I think I'm a little weird.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 22:27:55
In reply to Re: Just my opinion..., posted by TexasChic on January 6, 2006, at 21:55:22
> I've been thinking about this in reference to politics too.
:-)
> I was thinking how sometimes a law gets someone who has good intentions and everyone knows it, but it has to be emplemented if you want to be able to use it on the people who really deserve it too.
hmm.
the civility rules don't make mention of peoples 'intention' in posting their incivility...
why?
how on earth is intention supposed to be assessed?
i think... it does come into it a little...
with respect to leniency
(and i do think some was shown because the block wasn't double or triple length)
but yeah...the point there...
i think the point was more that anybody here would get pbc'd / blocked for calling another poster here manipulative. for saying they are just playing games.
and i'm glad of that.
because i would feel really very hurt should someone tell me that that is what i'm doing :-(
even if i said it about myself first :-(
if i see myself in that way...
then i am likely to beat myself up...
leading to increased distress...
leading to more unhelpful behaviours...and thus things deteriorate.
i think things may have gone better if people focused on *why* she was afraid to ask for help. and on how it might be appropriate to ask for help. and on how she might do that (concrete suggestions). and... ignored the rest. i think that would have had a better outcome...
> You can't just use it only when you agree with the situation. Its the only way to keep things impartial and fair.
yeah. or at least.. you have to try as best you can to do that.
> I find that a big problem with this country (US). People are all gung-ho (is that really a word?) when something 'they want' is being inforced. But when you use the same reasoning against something they don't want, they suddenly get all indignent.mmm
not just in the us methinks...
people in general...
> Okay, I said I was going to stop and go to bed, so now I am. Why do I get philsophical and political when I'm drunk. I think I'm a little weird.night night.
not weird.
you should see philosophers drink at conferences ;-)
Posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 22:48:32
In reply to Re: Just my opinion..., posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 21:33:28
if you don't have this view of what he is trying to do...
then you don't really look for the sense behind the blocks.
i mean...
i suppose there are benefits to that in a way.
the blocked poster didn't do anything wrong...
dr-bob is just being a meanie
making arbitrary decisions that make no sense.>>no, this is false, and condescending.
and you are fooling yourself into believing that you do not use hurtful language when describing others' behavior.
people who are blocked generally disagree with the principle of the blocks, fully aware that a principle is at work (a principle they see as misguided).
and this place is not safe. people get upset here and there is nothing in place to help the emotions that get unleashed here.
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 23:02:42
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 22:48:32
> no, this is false, and condescending.
i'm sorry z.
i really did not mean to be condescending.
i'm sorry if i hurt you
that was not my intention :-(
> people who are blocked generally disagree with the principle of the blocks, fully aware that a principle is at work (a principle they see as misguided).okay.
i would like to talk about this.
see...
what is the principle of the blocks?
what is the principle of the blocks that you disagree with?
because i think that whether you accept the block or not
whether you see the sense in the block or not
whether you feel really very angry / hurt in response to a block or not...
all of that...depends really very heavily on the way you describe the principle of the block.
the way you describe what you were blocked for
and what dr-bob was trying to do when he blocked you.
> and this place is not safe. people get upset here and there is nothing in place to help the emotions that get unleashed here.((((((z))))))
how do you think it could be safer?
Posted by sleepygirl on January 6, 2006, at 23:47:26
In reply to Re: Just my opinion... » zeugma, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 23:02:42
You know I've had a lot of empathy and patience for Deneb only because I have felt judged as "manipulative" before (evidence was pretty scant for it, but OK)
I've given it a tremendous amount of thought. I've felt awful about it, because I was unclear (that is what I surmised as the problem)
I came to understand the problem as this:
I was terrified to ask for help (from anyone, anytime, anywhere)I don't know....maybe other people identify with this...being unclear, difficult to understand, even evoking negative feelings in others, so we tolerate a lot of that in others (OK maybe that's just MY reason)
What I feel growing in this "drama" is a feeling like stated previously of not being safe. I don't like it when the dangers are less obvious -when we are left to worry about others, and it escalates, and escalates, and escalates...but holy anxiety provoking (for those of us paying attention)
You may look at what Larry said the word "manipulative" - sounds really negative, a word with power, but it does grab a hold of the shades of gray, puts a face on the intention doesn't it? so then we can finally put to words how we feel about one or both sides of the issue
this sucks, it honestly and really does
Posted by sleepygirl on January 6, 2006, at 23:55:20
In reply to Re: Just my opinion..., posted by sleepygirl on January 6, 2006, at 23:47:26
maybe a good idea?
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 7, 2006, at 2:05:27
In reply to Re: Just my opinion..., posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 21:33:28
>> i mean...
> i suppose there are benefits to that in a way.
> the blocked poster didn't do anything wrong...
> dr-bob is just being a meanie
> making arbitrary decisions that make no sense.
>
.That's a little reductive,
and I'm put off by the way you worded it.
Predicting blocks isn't really an issue, it's not that difficult. What angers most people who care about it, is that some people can say things that others would get blocked for, and nothing happens, considering the severity of the blocks, that's no small thing.
Go forward in thread:
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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