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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 6:35:33
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2011, at 0:23:41
How did you feel when people supported some of the beliefs that were expressed about you when people were speaking their "truths"?
Is it a way that you wish for Racer to feel?
It was my understanding that it wasn't very pleasant for you. Do you imagine it's very pleasant for Racer?
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 6:40:02
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2011, at 21:57:08
> Anyone insulted? Hurt? Humiliated? If Racer isn't active my feeling only that she might not be either. Of course personally I can't speak for her. Maybe it might help if she were to post how she feels.
In fact, I seem to recall that exact argument being made when you didn't respond to the "truths" being spoken about you.
Do you believe it a valid argument? Should those who remain silent when they feel hurt not be given the same courtesy of respect and kindness that the more vocal ought to receive?
Should I not have spoken up on your behalf? I'm trying to hear what your preferences would be if it were to happen again.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 6:42:07
In reply to Re: opportunity to support Twinleaf, posted by sigismund on March 26, 2011, at 14:21:59
So Sigi, I'm to understand that you have no problem if someone were to say that they perceive you to be insensitive, cold and harsh? As long as they say it's just their perception?
I congratulate you on your resilience.
I don't believe such a strong constitution is universal however.
Perhaps Dr. Bob could keep note of who wouldn't mind such comments.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 7:04:54
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 26, 2011, at 23:29:18
Admittedly if your main intent is to call Racer insensitive, cold and harsh, it would be impossible to rephrase or withdraw without lying.
An alternative to lying might be discretion in what is initially said. No one was talking about Racer when this topic opened. You introduced her into the topic and said something that I think would have hurt me had it been said about me.
If you had felt the overwhelming need to bring this up, you could have merely said that you thought the recent dearth of administrative involvement was healthy for Babble, and that you found administrative involvement a deterrent to a healthy and robust community. Or that you found posters working things out together preferable to administration sweeping in out of nowhere. If you really wanted to point out that you found Racer insensitive, harsh and cold, you could do so in a private email to Dr. Bob. Just as you likely wouldn't say that you found a poster silly or stupid, it might not be a good idea to not say that someone who volunteers her time for no remuneration of any sort is harsh or insensitive. Do you operate from the assumption that anyone associated with administration isn't entitled to the same discretion you would show towards a poster? Or that they perhaps are not human and have no feelings? If so, is it possible that this might be the common underlying theme here, rather than your love of Babble and desire to see it flourish?
You might think of it as a logic problem. "I believe I should be able to say whatever I like about administration without being blocked." + "Dr. Bob believes that administration is entitled to the same respect that posters deserve, and statements negative about members of administration will lead to a block by Dr. Bob." = "Dr. Bob will block me and feel totally justified in doing so." + "Dr. Bob will block me in what I consider to be a totally unjustified manner."
As an example of course. Your actual thoughts may differ. But is it possible that a different approach to showing your love of Babble might lead to a more desirable outcome?
If you wish to address with Dr. Bob the fact that he only wants deputies who don't post, that's a fair topic. But could it not be done without naming Racer? Could it not be done from the standpoint of positiveness? As in "I think active participants in Babble make for the perception of warmer deputies and may be less resented by some of us. I oppose your policy of not allowing them."? Does that not make the same point but while running a much slighter risk of hurting anyone's feelings?
Although it must be said that deputies are smart enough to figure out remarks like that, and it does hurt. But it has the extra added advantage to the poster, in that it allows them to keep posting and to keep saying things that deputies are smart enough to figure out, and that may hurt.
So... Being more discreet in saying things that may hurt deputies has a double advantage. You don't get blocked, and you can continue to say them! Win win.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 7:20:12
In reply to Re: another opportunity to support Twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 26, 2011, at 10:36:08
You could have a board devoted to having people say whether they mind people saying whatever they like about them, so long as they believe it to be true. Without any commentary other than what level of comment they might object to - stated in an abstract and civil manner.
Then whenever something is said about people who don't mind it, you can, instead of a pbc, simply post a link to their post stating they don't mind it. So that others aren't upset on their behalf.
*And* if posters who said they wouldn't mind it are later offended, you could point out that it had been ok'd by that poster.
In fact, you could do it yourself. If Poster A says they don't think there is anything wrong with Poster X saying something about Poster Y, you could consider it a declaration that they don't mind a similar statement made by poster X or Poster B about themselves. And of course, if Poster X doesn't feel they've said anything wrong, then you could consider it a declaration that they are fine with such statements directed towards themselves.
Sort of a Golden Rule application.
Then there would be something on record stating that some posters would mind, and no one could claim that it was arbitrary for you to administrate with regard to those posters. It would be easier to discover for the more robust posters to realize who isn't feeling quite as robust as they are.
For the record, I don't like such things being said about me. Rather particularly out of the blue. But even within the blue, I must say.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 7:32:21
In reply to An alternative to lying. » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 7:04:54
If your intent was not to hurt Racer. And if you don't consider it a win win situation to be able to continue to say things that might hurt her without being blocked, you could without even a hint of lying say something like "My intention was never to hurt Racer, and I deeply regret if my words did so." Without of course, reiterating the thing you're being asked to apologize for or stating again that you believe it to be true. Which would sort of negate the expressed regret, wouldn't it?
Sort of like "I really never meant to hurt "Q" by saying that "Q" is a great big ninny. I really regret if saying that "Q" had all the wit of a cheese sandwich left too long in the sun hurt "Q"'s feelings. But the simple truth is that "Q" is quite stupid and I really can't say that he isn't".
"I never meant to hurt Racer, and I regret if my words were hurtful to her." PERIOD. No lying, and it's possible it could be a perfectly true and acceptable expression of regret.
Posted by obsidian on March 27, 2011, at 9:46:00
In reply to And of course..., posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 7:32:21
and so I do wonder why I bother to even scan what's new on administration. It's a bit like slowing down to see an accident on the highway.
I think this perpetual fault finding and criticism flourishes with an audience.
I mean truly, does twinleaf? do you twinleaf? believe that it is perfectly acceptable to criticize/insult another poster, particularly with an absence of information?
Do you really feel justified in doing so?Who cares what "the truth" is. It's really irrelevant.
so, again, I wish we could just "let it go". I believe these types of posts are provocation, pure and simple.
and I...have reacted too much.
done now.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 9:50:20
In reply to I am so tired of this......, posted by obsidian on March 27, 2011, at 9:46:00
I became aware of this thread and thought I was strong enough after nearly three months to stay detached.
I think it's just not in me, under these circumstances, to stay detached.
Since there's nothing really I can do, I should just stay away.
Posted by obsidian on March 27, 2011, at 10:15:24
In reply to me too... » obsidian, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 9:50:20
> I became aware of this thread and thought I was strong enough after nearly three months to stay detached.
It's hard to when you care about something.
> I think it's just not in me, under these circumstances, to stay detached.
there's something in the protest? maybe?
I've got an urge to fight too.> Since there's nothing really I can do, I should just stay away.
if you think it's best for you of course
take care
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 10:51:45
In reply to Re: me too... » Dinah, posted by obsidian on March 27, 2011, at 10:15:24
My therapist says that given my history, he'd be more concerned about me if I didn't feel unable to say nothing.
I don't think one person saying something uncivil pushes my buttons. That I can dismiss, I think. It's when other people jump in and either join in or start saying that it was the truth, or it was ok to say, that I get reminded of exactly what that feels like. I made absolutely no distinction between the active tormentors in school, and those who supported them. And I always blamed the teachers as much as I blamed the tormentors, because their silence was complicity. It allowed it to happen. And to speak the truth, I felt a fair amount of hatred towards those who said nothing at all. I can understand that they were afraid, or embarrassed. But that didn't make their silence ok. I can understand, but I don't necessarily forgive any but the single one who years later asked my forgiveness for saying nothing. I honored and respected those who, without being in any way confrontational to my tormentors, showed kindness and acceptance, and let it be generally understood that it wasn't ok that I was being tormented, without perhaps actually saying so.
I can't be any of those people. Not the ones who said things, not the ones who supported those who said things, and not the ones who said nothing at all.
It's even worse for me when it's someone else. When it's me, I have the armor of dislike.
"Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, so you do unto me." doesn't really go far enough, to me. "Do whatever you like to me, but leave my brothers and sisters, least to greatest, the h*ll alone. What sort of person do you think I am to stand quiet?"
But that's me and my truth, heavily influenced by my experiences. I recognize this isn't middle school. But I also see similarities and experience feelings of impotence and rage.
And I think I'm more ok with how I am than I would be with changing. Yes, it causes me pain. But not nearly as much pain as changing to accept it would cause. I'd rather feel hurt than shame.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 11:01:28
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 26, 2011, at 23:29:18
I can see that I chose my words poorly, initially. Although I was speaking only about how an administrative action made me feel, I can see that Racer might have felt hurt by that choice of words. That is why I posted that clarification, "and definitely no criticism of Racer (was) meant" I cannot take the next step and apologize for critical feelings and thoughts about Racer which I never had. That would be lying.
I did not in any way condemn administrative actions as a whole. I said that I felt that "overly frequent" pcbs and
"excessive" blocking had been harmful to Babble. I consider thoughtfully applied administrative actions to be essential to
this site's smooth, safe running - just not " overly
frequent" or "excessive" ones. Several other posters, including SLS, have offered nearly identical assessments of the reasons for the extreme decline in posting. None of them were threatened with a block, as is being done to me.
Posted by sigismund on March 27, 2011, at 12:35:12
In reply to Re: opportunity to support Twinleaf » sigismund, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 6:42:07
>So Sigi, I'm to understand that you have no problem if someone were to say that they perceive you to be insensitive, cold and harsh?
Dinah, of course I would be devastated. But Twinleaf didn't say that. Twinleaf said 'This made etc etc', which while having a connection through Racer, refers more to the administration of Babble, but not quite that either because it is the contrast between Racer's absence and the penalties applying which come from Bob.
Posted by sigismund on March 27, 2011, at 12:54:59
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 11:01:28
>None of them were threatened with a block, as is being done to me.
I think we should really try to look after people better than this.
If Racer was here I would want to look after her. I would say 'Twinleaf was talking about administration really, not about you'.
I suppose Bob is here. Then I would say 'Your policies must have been designed to head of future conflict. Can you not see how sometimes they have made things worse?'.
Twinleaf is here. I want to say that I understand her anger and hurt. It must be something in the way she expresses herself. 'Can you not, Twinleaf, find a way to jump through this hoop?'I seem to be in my mother superior mode. Please excuse me. I have been thinking about The Happy Prince.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 14:10:21
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by sigismund on March 27, 2011, at 12:54:59
I feel that there should be a "win-win" way out, but so far I can't find what it is. I so much appreciate your understanding and support, but these are precious resources of yours which should begin going to other things.
Let's just stop the thread right here and wait to see what happens.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 14:53:14
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 11:01:28
I'm sorry for any misunderstanding on my part that may have caused you distress. I'm glad you didn't have those thoughts about Racer.
I've known both of you for a long time, and it would be very sad for me if either of you didn't see the contributions the other has made.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 14:55:31
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by sigismund on March 27, 2011, at 12:54:59
Well, perhaps another way to think about it is that on the internet, everyone *is* here. Even if a given poster isn't reading on a regular basis, and I have no way of knowing whether or not Racer is, this thread found its way to my attention, and the likelihood is that it could find its way to Racer.
I don't think there is a here and a not here on the internet. So I'm glad you also wish to be supportive to Racer.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 15:03:20
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned..... » sigismund, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 14:55:31
I truly appreciate your letting me know. My own poor choice of words aside, I have always had nothing but extremely favorable thoughts about Racer, whom I consider very special.
Posted by obsidian on March 27, 2011, at 18:05:00
In reply to Re: me too... » obsidian, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2011, at 10:51:45
Makes sense to me Dinah.
I am sorry for what you experienced.I am going to post something on psych.
-sid
Posted by hyperfocus on March 27, 2011, at 23:05:49
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 26, 2011, at 23:29:18
I know you care about PB twinleaf and I really, really don't want to see you blocked or feel like you have to leave. That would be extremely detrimental to PB. I understand how you feel about rephrasing what you said, but it wouldn't have to be lying. It could be just turning an objective judgement into a subjective opinion:
(Recently, it appears to me that) On occasion, Racer has carried out punitive administrative actions for him. This has made a particularly cold, harsh impression (on me), as (it seems to me) she no longer cares to be a part of the community (which is hurtful to me.)
So it retains the same point-of-view, just framed in a subjective box. If this isn't civil then I don't know what other help to offer.
I seriously doubt you were trying to say anything bad about Racer and I know how you feel about playing semantic games but I mean we all have to pick our battles. Maybe posting your views on admin isn't something you should be fighting for. I'm not discouraging you from posting anywhere on PB, it's just that it seems to me that almost every time you post here you get sanctioned. So knowing how things stand here, maybe it would be better for your peace-of-mind if you stayed out of the Admin theater of war. Like I said I think just having you here contributes to the welfare of PB and I really would not like to see you blocked again.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 23:59:12
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned..... » Twinleaf, posted by hyperfocus on March 27, 2011, at 23:05:49
Yes, I think you are right - I do keep tending to fight the same battle over and over again. One of the things which motivates me to do that is that the civility rules sometimes seem to make critical thinking and problem-solving into punishable offenses, and I'm determined that they won't stop me from speaking out.
But now I've made that point.
Posted by hyperfocus on March 28, 2011, at 7:13:05
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 23:59:12
Well you know the proverb: "render unto Cesar those which are of Cesar" or something like that. Here, unfortunately, there is no freedom of speech or freedom of opinion. If you don't pay your civility tax then you're giving Cesar the right to nail you to a cross or something. Which is noble in itself but I mean for me I'd prefer if you stay in the community among the plebians where they can still talk to you.
Everybody knows who you and what you believe in and what you stand for. There's nothing to be lost toeing the line Dr. Bob sets for you - the alternative would be far more detrimental to us and you.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 29, 2011, at 21:00:39
In reply to Re: No-one has mentioned....., posted by Twinleaf on March 27, 2011, at 11:01:28
> definitely no criticism of Racer meant.
> I can see that I chose my words poorly, initially.
Thanks.
> I said that I felt that "overly frequent" pcbs and "excessive" blocking had been harmful to Babble.
And you just said it again.
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me or other deputies) to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
I do hope that you choose to remain a member of this community and that members of this community help you, if needed, to avoid future blocks. If you want to be proactive, you could ask another poster to be your civility buddy:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#buddies
deneb, Dinah, sigismund, and hyperfocus, thanks for trying to help this time.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil. Thanks.
--
> I so much appreciate your understanding and support, but these are precious resources of yours which should begin going to other things.
> I do keep tending to fight the same battle over and over again. One of the things which motivates me to do that is that the civility rules sometimes seem to make critical thinking and problem-solving into punishable offenses, and I'm determined that they won't stop me from speaking out.
>
> TwinleafA number of us have devoted precious resources to trying to help you avoid being blocked again. Unfortunately, we failed.
It's critical posts, not critical thinking, that's the "punishable offense" -- and is leading you to be stopped from speaking. Can you solve the problem of how to speak out in a way I'll consider civil?
> I suppose Bob is here. Then I would say 'Your policies must have been designed to head of future conflict. Can you not see how sometimes they have made things worse?'.
>
> sigismundEnforcing them does lead to conflict. But not enforcing them also leads to conflict.
Bob
PS: This block is the result of one action, but its length is the result of a pattern of actions. The block length formula:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
takes into account how long the previous block was, how long it's been since the previous block, and how uncivil the current post is:
duration of previous block: 37 weeks
period of time since previous block: 30 weeks
severity: 2 (default)
block length = 31.59 rounded = 32 weeks
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2011, at 22:52:05
In reply to Re: blocked for 32 weeks » Twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 29, 2011, at 21:00:39
I thought she had done the equivalent of apologizing, in that she said she had never meant it at all?
Really, Dr. Bob, I think that she complied with the intent of the request.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2011, at 15:02:53
In reply to Re: another opportunity to support Twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 26, 2011, at 10:36:08
> I'd like Twinleaf to remain an active member of the Babble community.really?
i thought you had had enough of the whole damned thing and wish it would die already.
seems too cruel just to shut the whole thing down admittedly...
but you would rather it die than be free.
wouldn't you Bob?
that is what this is about, really.
Posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2011, at 19:48:28
In reply to Re: another opportunity to support Twinleaf, posted by alexandra_k on March 30, 2011, at 15:02:53
And I agree. Phillipa
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