![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 201 to 225 of 304. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on April 19, 2009, at 18:22:24
In reply to Re: This speaks so much. in case you missed it. » muffled, posted by rskontos on April 19, 2009, at 17:07:35
Thx Sigismund :-)
Hey RSK.
I been here awhile, and everyonce in awhile, I think, OK, this is the time, Bob is receptive to change......but then..... he is still the same old Bob.
After I rediscover this reality, then I just get silly, and don't take this admin stuff too seriously, cuz it'll just drag you down.
So ya, I just kinda get into the amusement factor, cuz no true discussion is possible.
It used to weird me out too, but now , like I say, the familiarity is vaguely comforting in some twisted way.
Bob is the same.
Annoying as all hell, but not such a bad person really.
I accept him for who he is.
Thats why I can't really be here at babble. Cuz Bob is Bob, and thats OK, but I just can't be here cuz of that. I can't get involved or invested, cuz this thread would make me mental if so. But because I am not invested, I can take a step back, not get fussed. I can enjoy the comfort of the familiar.
As for Tara, I was deeply dissapointed in that show. Dissociation aside, its just a crap show, and the diss part is a joke.
Oh well.
Allus nice to see you RSK, and try not to get caught up in this admin stuff.
Take care, hope you doing OK.
Muffled
Posted by Sigismund on April 19, 2009, at 19:03:16
In reply to boating on babble, posted by muffled on April 18, 2009, at 18:02:54
Perhaps the paradigm comes from US peace keeping missions?
Posted by rskontos on April 19, 2009, at 19:21:15
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by raisinb on April 18, 2009, at 17:57:38
>>I think we're all looking for the same thing here--fewer missing loved ones and a safer Babble (since I don't know what's in your head, I am assuming a charitable interpretation). There is a good deal of finger-pointing going on on both sides of this conflict, and I do think individual posters need to take responsibility for their own actions.
However, greater power=greater responsibility. Turning the responsibility for resolving a conflict over to the less powerful--while retaining the power--is, as I said, a highly fishy move.>>>
Well said and a hearty Hear! Hear!.rsk
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2009, at 20:46:41
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Sigismund on April 18, 2009, at 18:14:54
> Hopefully you will grow to accept us.
>
> FayeroeI understand that posters may want to feel accepted by me. I do accept all posters, but I think it's unlikely that I'll grow to accept uncivil posts. Is not blocking posters the way for me to show I accept them?
> the captain ... seems to go missing from time to time.....noone on his boat knows where he goes? ... I bet sometimes your crew would like to know where the heck you are when storms arise...
>
> MI understand wanting a captain, especially in a storm. I'm sorry I've left you all to weather some previous storms by yourselves. But I'm here now. But a captain can't do much by himself.
> > The point of this site is for posters to support each other. It seems to me a straightforward way of supporting each other would be to help each other avoid being blocked.
>
> #2 doesn't logically follow. It only works when you assume everyone fundamentally agrees with the policies being enforced. When that isn't the case, it may feel to posters as if they're facing a common dilemma of the powerless
>
> I think the problem with the logic here is that helping you enforce your policies is not "supporting" those who run afoul of them. Empathy, communication, reassurance, and checking in on other posters is what constitutes support. Looks like we are all doing that all the time, which is why I love Babble.
>
> I think we're all looking for the same thing here--fewer missing loved ones and a safer Babble (since I don't know what's in your head, I am assuming a charitable interpretation). ... I do think individual posters need to take responsibility for their own actions.
>
> raisinbYou're right, supporting someone who runs afoul of my policies by helping them avoid a block afterwards doesn't help me enforce those policies. Helping them not run afoul of them in the first place would, but helping them avoid a block afterwards just means one fewer missing loved one.
I'm glad you feel supported and love it here. Thanks for believing that I'd also like fewer blocked posters and a safer Babble.
> greater power=greater responsibility. Turning the responsibility for resolving a conflict over to the less powerful--while retaining the power--is, as I said, a highly fishy move.
>
> raisinb> I can't stand the carnage. I used to try and shoot back at the policy boat, but then there was more fighting.
> Me, I need a more peaceful place.
>
> Mebbe we snarl some, or send a mate off to their cabin to cool down for a bit, but thats bout it.
>
> M> If someone writes to me and asks my opinion about a post I will give it. But people I don't know well, and people I do as well, are not going to take kindly to me saying 'I think you should do this', as if I really know anyway.
>
> There is a very limited influence we have on each other at any one time.
>
> SigismundMebbe I snarl some, or send posters off to their cabins to cool down for a bit, or longer, but that's about it.
I wonder if some posters may be attached (not by choice, of course) to feelings of powerlessness. Maybe the idea that they actually have some power is what seems fishy.
Empathy, communication, reassurance, and checking in give you influence (a form of power). As Sigismund said before, there are different ways of negotiating a response in such a way as to make it possible. I thought posters helped influence Verne to apologize, and I'm glad he's still on the boat. More shooting means less peace. More apologies means fewer blocks and more peace.
> I felt I had to point out that Dr. Bob called us a herd. I don't think that is civil yet he did not rephrase it like he asks us all the time. To rephrase, to be civil. I am not a cow or a horse or any other animal that is part of a herd. With all my issues, I would freak out in a herd.
>
> rskSorry, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was a cow or a horse or anything like that. Mob mentality came up, and it's a form of herd behavior, which can refer to the behavior of people as well as animals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior
The "herd" here seems to be willing to let Fayeroe fall overboard. But maybe people are trying to support her behind the scenes. I hope so.
Bob
Posted by muffled on April 19, 2009, at 23:14:54
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2009, at 20:46:41
> I understand that posters may want to feel accepted by me. I do accept all posters, but I think it's unlikely that I'll grow to accept uncivil posts. Is not blocking posters the way for me to show I accept them?
dare I?, oh why not. Keeps me outta trouble IRL I suppose.
Hmmmm, well, sometimes, in the name of chartitablness and acceptance, we can *first* warn, immediately B4 punish(like 24 hrs) THEN if no satisfaction, perhaps a SHORT block.
This has been one of the major points here....that the blocks are too long. Too punitive. Too hurtful.
"Is not blocking posters the way for me to show I accept them?", well blocking posters, effectively banishing them for WEEKS, MONTHS at a time isn't exactly accepting behaviour....I expect it FEELS more like 'F off you disgusting person'... :-( However, I speak for myself...how it feels...
Now that being said...I have noticed that there HAS been a seeming reduction in numbers of blocks. For awhile there it was a bit silly! Do you remember me being blocked for f*rt????? Sigh... Anyhow, those days are past, and I think there HAS been improvement.
> I understand wanting a captain, especially in a storm. I'm sorry I've left you all to weather some previous storms by yourselves. But I'm here now. But a captain can't do much by himself.Thank you for the apology. Your here now....what does that mean? I admit, with the passing of time, and observations on other internet boards, I have had some changes of heart re: proceedures.
> > > The point of this site is for posters to support each other. It seems to me a straightforward way of supporting each other would be to help each other avoid being blocked.
Yes....up to a point. Others have been making wonderful observations here.
I am also assuming my fellow posters have a brain. Yes, sometimes its good to hint, other times I am aware they are making a point, and who am I to interfere w/them?> You're right, supporting someone who runs afoul of my policies by helping them avoid a block afterwards doesn't help me enforce those policies. Helping them not run afoul of them in the first place would, but helping them avoid a block afterwards just means one fewer missing loved one.
???
Yes, I sgree, helping others know the rules would be good....if they were consistant....if they made sense....
> I'm glad you feel supported and love it here. Thanks for believing that I'd also like fewer blocked posters and a safer Babble.Awwwww, thats so sweet...
> Mebbe I snarl some, or send posters off to their cabins to cool down for a bit, or longer, but that's about it.NO!!!! That is the POINT!!!!! You send them off for TOO LONG. Good gravy, a week is *plenty* unless it is just totally our of line...like *extreeme ongoing* cases...
> I wonder if some posters may be attached (not by choice, of course) to feelings of powerlessness. Maybe the idea that they actually have some power is what seems fishy.
Oh dude, interesting thing to ponder...but not me...I am USED to power man....so ya, mebbe you right, pwerlessness pisses me off, but ONLY because I see injustice(IMHO). Other than that I don't give a rats *ss.
> Empathy, communication, reassurance, and checking in give you influence (a form of power). As Sigismund said before, there are different ways of negotiating a response in such a way as to make it possible. I thought posters helped influence Verne to apologize, and I'm glad he's still on the boat. More shooting means less peace. More apologies means fewer blocks and more peace.
Verne is a big boy. He apologized cuz HE wanted to AND has done in the past. MAYBE we influenced him, maybe not.
Less shooting is good BUT, one thing that seems intrinsic to therapy, is that when there ARE breakdowns, some of the greatest gains are made by REPAIR of the relationship. If you block for weeks at a time, the window of opportunity for repair is lost.
Conflict AND a chance for repair = growth...> The "herd" here seems to be willing to let Fayeroe fall overboard. But maybe people are trying to support her behind the scenes. I hope so.
OMG. 'F'you Bob, I mean seriouly Bob, F YOU!
That is a seriously *SSH*L* comment on your part.
It makes me SOOOOOO FRIKKEN MAD.
Dude, you think we not care bout Pat??? Of COURSE we do, DUUUUUHHHHHH.
I also know, that she is a smart , intelligent woman, who knows the rules here, who knows what is what.
She is NOT STUPID.
Sh*t.
This where you really don't get it do you?
I don't wanto make you feel bad, I want to help you to understand. And I have tried B4, but you just don't get it :( For that I am sad. Cuz i think you ARE trying....Hey WTF, I am willing to work w/ya Bob....LOL. 100.00/hr, if you wanna come up to canada, I will be your T!
HA!Everyboddys got their 'stuff', you too Bob, thats OK, but manoman, you surely make me nuts from time to time.
LOL! Mebbe cuz I care hey?
:-0!
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 5:28:06
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2009, at 20:46:41
>The "herd" here seems to be willing to let Fayeroe fall overboard.
What's that about?
Posted by fayeroe on April 20, 2009, at 9:22:30
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2009, at 20:46:41
> > Hopefully you will grow to accept us.
> >
> > Fayeroe
>
> I understand that posters may want to feel accepted by me. I do accept all posters, but I think it's unlikely that I'll grow to accept uncivil posts. Is not blocking posters the way for me to show I accept them?I meant that you would grow to accept the fact that some people don't agree with you. Grow to accept that everyone isn't going to do things that we don't think is productive to us or the site.
>
> > the captain ... seems to go missing from time to time.....noone on his boat knows where he goes? ... I bet sometimes your crew would like to know where the heck you are when storms arise...
> >
> > M
>
> I understand wanting a captain, especially in a storm. I'm sorry I've left you all to weather some previous storms by yourselves. But I'm here now. But a captain can't do much by himself.
>
> > > The point of this site is for posters to support each other. It seems to me a straightforward way of supporting each other would be to help each other avoid being blocked.
> >
> > #2 doesn't logically follow. It only works when you assume everyone fundamentally agrees with the policies being enforced. When that isn't the case, it may feel to posters as if they're facing a common dilemma of the powerless
> >
> > I think the problem with the logic here is that helping you enforce your policies is not "supporting" those who run afoul of them. Empathy, communication, reassurance, and checking in on other posters is what constitutes support. Looks like we are all doing that all the time, which is why I love Babble.
> >
> > I think we're all looking for the same thing here--fewer missing loved ones and a safer Babble (since I don't know what's in your head, I am assuming a charitable interpretation). ... I do think individual posters need to take responsibility for their own actions.
> >
> > raisinb
>
> You're right, supporting someone who runs afoul of my policies by helping them avoid a block afterwards doesn't help me enforce those policies. Helping them not run afoul of them in the first place would, but helping them avoid a block afterwards just means one fewer missing loved one.Why did you ask us so many times to get Verne and Jade to apologize to you? After the fact..
>
> I'm glad you feel supported and love it here. Thanks for believing that I'd also like fewer blocked posters and a safer Babble.
>
> > greater power=greater responsibility. Turning the responsibility for resolving a conflict over to the less powerful--while retaining the power--is, as I said, a highly fishy move.
> >
> > raisinb
>
> > I can't stand the carnage. I used to try and shoot back at the policy boat, but then there was more fighting.
> > Me, I need a more peaceful place.
> >
> > Mebbe we snarl some, or send a mate off to their cabin to cool down for a bit, but thats bout it.
> >
> > M
>
> > If someone writes to me and asks my opinion about a post I will give it. But people I don't know well, and people I do as well, are not going to take kindly to me saying 'I think you should do this', as if I really know anyway.
> >
> > There is a very limited influence we have on each other at any one time.
> >
> > Sigismund
>
> Mebbe I snarl some, or send posters off to their cabins to cool down for a bit, or longer, but that's about it.
>
> I wonder if some posters may be attached (not by choice, of course) to feelings of powerlessness. Maybe the idea that they actually have some power is what seems fishy.Huh?
>
> Empathy, communication, reassurance, and checking in give you influence (a form of power). As Sigismund said before, there are different ways of negotiating a response in such a way as to make it possible. I thought posters helped influence Verne to apologize, and I'm glad he's still on the boat. More shooting means less peace. More apologies means fewer blocks and more peace.Verne sobered up. And according to him didn't remember a lot of what he had said. I am guessing that he read the thread and was sorry that he wrote what he did.
>
> > I felt I had to point out that Dr. Bob called us a herd. I don't think that is civil yet he did not rephrase it like he asks us all the time. To rephrase, to be civil. I am not a cow or a horse or any other animal that is part of a herd. With all my issues, I would freak out in a herd.
> >
> > rsk
>
> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was a cow or a horse or anything like that. Mob mentality came up, and it's a form of herd behavior, which can refer to the behavior of people as well as animals:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior.........Oh lord.....
>
> The "herd" here seems to be willing to let Fayeroe fall overboard. But maybe people are trying to support her behind the scenes. I hope so.I haven't asked for any support.
So.....you're thinking that you will let this drag on and THEN block me? Games, Bob, games. My last block was two weeks so if you multiply that by the stars in the west and deduct 7% for a little rain......I'll serve__________?
Fayeroe
>
> Bob
Posted by fayeroe on April 20, 2009, at 13:06:42
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 20, 2009, at 9:22:30
I am blocking myself for four (4) weeks.
I need to clean my house.
Fayeroe
Posted by muffled on April 20, 2009, at 13:10:59
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 20, 2009, at 9:22:30
oh man, my house is terrible.....
and its yard work time...
busy.
Hope you ok.
You a good egg OK.
((((((((((pat)))))))))))
Muffled
Posted by muffled on April 20, 2009, at 13:13:21
In reply to ((((Fayroe)))))), posted by muffled on April 20, 2009, at 13:10:59
HOW TO CLEAN THE HOUSE
1. Open a new folder on your PC ....
2. Name it 'Housework.'3. Send it to the Recycle Bin.
4. Empty the Recycle Bin.
5. Your PC will ask you,
***'Are you sure you want to delete Housework permanently?'**** :-)
6. Calmly answer, 'Yes' and press mouse button firmly ...
7. Feel better?
Works for me!
ROFL!!!! someone sent this to me!
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 14:33:09
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 20, 2009, at 9:22:30
So Bob had decided to re-involve himself with Babble?
Perhaps Bob could find a way to look at some of the people he has blocked more charitably.
Capricious blocks (zazenducke) inevitably lead to resentment.
Posted by rskontos on April 20, 2009, at 19:18:28
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2009, at 20:46:41
>>>The "herd" here seems to be willing to let Fayeroe fall overboard. But maybe people are trying to support her behind the scenes. I hope so.>>>>
This baffles me. How is Fayeroe falling overboard?
And another thing, Dr. Bob you said:>>understand that posters may want to feel accepted by me. I do accept all posters, but I think it's unlikely that I'll grow to accept uncivil posts. understand that posters may want to feel accepted by me. I do accept all posters, but I think it's unlikely that I'll grow to accept uncivil posts. Is not blocking posters the way for me to show I accept them?
Something I have noticed is this appears to be the first time you have taken exception to a Babbler being uncivil to you. You asked Verne to apologize to you, this I don't remember ever happening before. You always seemed ok with uncivility directed at you but now the rules seemed to change when we weren't looking. Just my observation.
>>>Is not blocking posters the way for me to show I accept them?
If you mean to show acceptance you would limit blocks to a REASONABLE time, the answer is YES!
rsk
Posted by rskontos on April 20, 2009, at 19:23:23
In reply to housework, posted by muffled on April 20, 2009, at 13:13:21
OH MY GOD,
muffled I nearly fell off my chair laughing.
I plan to do that today once and for all so I can FORGET that my house needs to be cleaned!!
I wonder if we can put Dr. Bob in that delete file.
rsk
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 19:29:24
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on April 20, 2009, at 19:18:28
For reasons not clear to me, some people get the chance to apologise and some do not.
Posted by zenhussy on April 20, 2009, at 19:38:15
In reply to Re: an opportunity » rskontos, posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 19:29:24
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 19:50:07
In reply to yes.very confusing as to which folk are 'some ppl' (nm) » Sigismund, posted by zenhussy on April 20, 2009, at 19:38:15
Well, one wouldn't expect some people to be given the chance, some slates taking longer to clean and all, so it's not entirely caprice.
Posted by verne on April 20, 2009, at 19:52:52
In reply to Re: an opportunity » rskontos, posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 19:29:24
I almost feel singled out because my apology was accepted and others weren't. Sure, my apology was vague and lots left to interpretation.
Dr Bob, please put all subsequent (not sure I spelled that reight) blocks, on my account.
I wish to rebutt, rebuff, and completely refurbish my previous apology. Whyile, I'm still sorry for all the trouble I caused, any sort of apology to Dr Bob is void. I retract it.
Please remove any previous blocks on this thread and add further blocks to MY account.
More weight.
no hard feelings, anybooble.
Verne
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 19:56:35
In reply to Clarification of Mud, posted by verne on April 20, 2009, at 19:52:52
I think jade thought quite hard and tried to come up with as close to an aplogy as she could muster, though it perhaps was more an explanation.
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 20:00:45
In reply to Re: yes.very confusing as to which folk are 'some ppl' » zenhussy, posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 19:50:07
I fear I have provoked this by suggesting Verne was given a chance that others were not.
He's certainly egalitarian.
Posted by Sigismund on April 20, 2009, at 20:23:00
In reply to Clarification of Mud, posted by verne on April 20, 2009, at 19:52:52
Salem had come to mind before you mentioned this.
There are lots of paradigms out there.
Posted by raisinb on April 20, 2009, at 21:05:08
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2009, at 20:46:41
"You're right, supporting someone who runs afoul of my policies by helping them avoid a block afterwards doesn't help me enforce those policies. Helping them not run afoul of them in the first place would, but helping them avoid a block afterwards just means one fewer missing loved one."
Actually, my point was the opposite--that helping others "rephrase" or whatever is not "supporting" them--it's supporting you and your current policies. Supporting other posters, as I said, consists of different actions that we're all involved in every day.
Posted by verne on April 20, 2009, at 21:36:36
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by raisinb on April 20, 2009, at 21:05:08
More weight!
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2009, at 8:23:43
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by raisinb on April 20, 2009, at 21:05:08
I hesitate to post about this, because I may be seen as part of the problem.
But I've done what Dr. Bob suggested many times, with the intent to be supportive of my fellow posters, not to help him. Before I was a deputy I did it. I do it in offline life too.
If I think it will be welcomed, or not make things worse, I still do it.
If a friend, in any situation Babble or not, is getting very upset and is on the path to having consequences that may not be what they would like, I generally try to encourage them to step back and think about what they're doing. I generally try to help them gain distance and perspective, so that they can decide if this is really something that will further their goals. If this is really what they want. If this is, pragmatically speaking, the best way to get to where they wish to go from where they are now.
I'm a pragmatist to my toes.
Even if I think someone is completely justified in how they feel in any given situation, I still think pragmatic concerns are something that it is helpful to consider. I appreciate it when my friends encourage me to do the same.
And if I think that perhaps there is more than one way to look at a situation, I think I'd consider it part of my responsibility as a friend to suggest looking into other possibilities.
To me it appears that this has come to be a discussion about posters encouraging each other to apologize to Dr. Bob. I'm not sure Dr. Bob intended it that way. I'm seeing this as a continuation of some of his previous posts, from maybe a year or so ago?, about posters taking on a larger role in the administration of Babble. In this case, not by policing and reporting, but by defusing and encouraging compliance, peer to peer, poster to poster. I think we do that many times in many situations, in a very civil way. I also think there are limits to how effective that strategy can be, and Dr. Bob might be running into those limits. If the discussion can be broadened a bit away from individual posters and apologies to Dr. Bob, and toward posters taking on some administrative responsibility for encouraging civility as well as reporting incivility, my guess is that some of the misunderstandings on this thread could be minimized. Maybe an agreement in principle could be reached. Something along the lines of "This is something that posters are willing to do and in fact already do in many instances. But there are occasions when posters do not feel this is an appropriate role for other posters, and is best left to Administration." Which is just a suggestion. I don't pretend to understand the dynamics involved well enough to come up with a comprehensive agreement in principle. Perhaps a better statement might be "Posters do not feel it is appropriate for them to take a larger role in administering Babble, and think the top down model is the way to go." Or something entirely different, but of course respectful and civil.
I *do* think that sometimes posters are fully cognizant of the results of their posts, and would not consider other posters urging them to apologize as supportive. I think that posters are trying to convey that to Dr. Bob right now. I do understand that a poster has the right to choose to protest what they see as unjust laws by choosing to do what they are aware will result in a block.
I do wonder, pragmatically, if that is the most helpful path to change. It's been going on for some time, and I haven't seen a lot of change from Dr. Bob in response. In Dr. Bob's position, I don't think I'd be as swayed as I would be by people choosing to stay around and persuade him with logic that changes should be made. I suppose there is the effect on other posters. Is it enough? A few posters have mentioned on this thread that they've received a lot of support for their stance. But the history of protests on Babble would suggest to me that the tactic is not the best route to change Dr. Bob's heart and mind. Which believe it or not, can be changed.
Just my humble opinion, for whatever it's worth. Which in this situation, given my position as deputy, is probably not worth much. I wasn't always deputy, and I'd have said the same then. If that makes any difference whatsoever.
Posted by verne on April 21, 2009, at 8:58:15
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2009, at 8:23:43
I'm such a dim bulb, I only understood about 1% of your post. How can a post be that long yet still be incomprehensible?
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, especially Dr Bob's, or appeal to any sort of logic - unless it's real low-watt or twisted.
I just like to cause the maximum amount of trouble and let others sort it out.
More weight.
the imp
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2009, at 11:57:38
In reply to Imps are never around when you need them » Dinah, posted by verne on April 21, 2009, at 8:58:15
I wish you wouldn't speak ill of yourself. I think you got the gist of what I said.
> I just like to cause the maximum amount of trouble and let others sort it out.
I will respect that you know better than I what your motivations are. But you've been posting here a long time, Verne. I've seen you give and receive support. Do you think that at one time, if not now, that was your goal for being here? If that has changed, do you think it was blocking policies that changed your goals here? The reaction you received from Administration or fellow posters?
I imagine that if the goals of some posters is to cause the maximum amount of trouble, that might be seen by Dr. Bob as in conflict with his own goals for Babble. Not that I have any particular insight into Dr. Bob's view of it.
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