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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 85 to 109 of 304. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on April 11, 2009, at 22:44:55
In reply to Re: RAT IN THE ATTIC » Dr. Bob, posted by JadeKelly on April 11, 2009, at 22:02:48
>And I will expect that things are really gonna change for the better.
That's very optimistic.
Posted by muffled on April 11, 2009, at 23:00:44
In reply to Re: RAT IN THE ATTIC » JadeKelly, posted by Sigismund on April 11, 2009, at 22:44:55
I'd forgotten that post, and to be honest i have no clue where my head was at? I may have clicked post B4 I was ready?
Anyhow I just about gutted myself laffing cuz I meant I LITERALLY had a rat in my literal attic! Happily for me, he is gone now. I just hate to hear then scuttling and esp chewing inside the walls. Then I have to clean up the poo too cuz we store stuff there.
Anyhow....rats in attic, bats in belfry? Mebbe I made a new saying? Or is it and old one and I just don't know?
Anyhow, my face hurts from smiling.But my smile leaves when I consider this site....:-(
Bob, have you ever considered working WITH another person in running this site....?
I just don't know what to say....
There seems to be nothing left to say :(
I feel utterly helpless to make change here, and I can't stand to see the hurt.
Its too bad.
(((((((Babblers))))))
Take care all,
Muffled
Posted by myco on April 11, 2009, at 23:39:41
In reply to ROFL !!!OMG!!! ITIPMP!!!!!Rats!:-o!!!, posted by muffled on April 11, 2009, at 23:00:44
Was he delicious?
> Anyhow I just about gutted myself laffing cuz I meant I LITERALLY had a rat in my literal attic! Happily for me, he is gone now. I just hate to hear then scuttling and esp chewing inside the walls. Then I have to clean up the poo too cuz we store stuff there.
Posted by rskontos on April 12, 2009, at 9:20:02
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 2009, at 13:21:43
Dr. Bob,
You Said ---I wonder about mob mentality. I did mean "encourage" and not "harass" or "pressure". Though I guess encouragement from a mob could be experienced as pressure. But there's hardly a mob doing that here. If anything, it seems to me *not* encouraging them to apologize might be more consistent with individuals seeking safety in this "herd".---
Now I try and not get too sensitive here, it is bad for mental health, but I got to say I do think being called part of a "herd"
feels uncivil to me. No, it is more, I actually find it offensive.I am out of here. I guess I am glad you spend little time posting on psychology board because you don't get really in your heart of hearts why we are here. And I grow weary of trying to be any part of the "change" here when it isn't happening.
rsk
Posted by fayeroe on April 12, 2009, at 9:43:21
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on April 12, 2009, at 9:20:02
> Dr. Bob,
>
> You Said ---I wonder about mob mentality. I did mean "encourage" and not "harass" or "pressure". Though I guess encouragement from a mob could be experienced as pressure. But there's hardly a mob doing that here. If anything, it seems to me *not* encouraging them to apologize might be more consistent with individuals seeking safety in this "herd".---
>
> Now I try and not get too sensitive here, it is bad for mental health, but I got to say I do think being called part of a "herd"
> feels uncivil to me. No, it is more, I actually find it offensive.
>
> I am out of here. I guess I am glad you spend little time posting on psychology board because you don't get really in your heart of hearts why we are here. And I grow weary of trying to be any part of the "change" here when it isn't happening.
>
> rskI'm sorry, rsk......I'm glad you have a refuge here. pat
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
In reply to Re: an opportunity » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on April 12, 2009, at 9:20:02
> you don't get really in your heart of hearts why we are here.
In my heart of hearts, I feel posters are here to support each other. And they tend not to like blocks. So I expected posters to jump at an opportunity to try to help Jade and Verne avoid being blocked.
But relatively little posting energy has gone into that. I guess the alternative are: (1) posters don't support them, (2) posters support them and don't want them to be blocked, but aren't helping them avoid that, or (3) posters support them and do want them to be blocked.
Possible reasons for (2):
Posters aren't doing it because I suggested it. Resisting me is seen as more important.
There's safety in numbers. Not going along with the crowd is seen as dangerous.
Lobbying for changes in policies could be seen as important, too, but that and supporting Jade and Verne aren't mutually exclusive.
Possible reasons for (3):
Being blocked is seen as a sign of being true to oneself, something to feel proud of.
Civility is seen as more important.
Any other ideas about why this might be happening?
Bob
Posted by myco on April 12, 2009, at 15:20:51
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
Youre onto some ideas here Bob....consider also that no one really cares enough to post in support. I have seen countless times when there is some new person on the meds board crying out for help or advice only to go ignored for days and days when I know fully that people are reading their post....they just dont care or have energy or interest enough to formulate a response of even simple support. Not everyone though is like that at all. Great support base at times but even those "great supporters" of advice and answers are not always, themselves, "up to" posting.
This site has a huge base of users and I would guess most hang in the shadows and dont post at all but read. Plus people you have their own issues tend not to want to complicate things I think.Hey....thanks for your increased effort to listen and respond as of late. Even though we dont see eye to eye it's much appreciated you made that effort to speak back. I have no idea really how I become the most vocal of this group....again it's possible no one really cares enough to try....they would rather stay in the background and observe.
myco
--------> > you don't get really in your heart of hearts why we are here.
>
> In my heart of hearts, I feel posters are here to support each other. And they tend not to like blocks. So I expected posters to jump at an opportunity to try to help Jade and Verne avoid being blocked.
>
> But relatively little posting energy has gone into that. I guess the alternative are: (1) posters don't support them, (2) posters support them and don't want them to be blocked, but aren't helping them avoid that, or (3) posters support them and do want them to be blocked.
>
> Possible reasons for (2):
>
> Posters aren't doing it because I suggested it. Resisting me is seen as more important.
>
> There's safety in numbers. Not going along with the crowd is seen as dangerous.
>
> Lobbying for changes in policies could be seen as important, too, but that and supporting Jade and Verne aren't mutually exclusive.
>
> Possible reasons for (3):
>
> Being blocked is seen as a sign of being true to oneself, something to feel proud of.
>
> Civility is seen as more important.
>
> Any other ideas about why this might be happening?
>
> Bob
Posted by fayeroe on April 12, 2009, at 15:21:18
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
> > you don't get really in your heart of hearts why we are here.
>
> In my heart of hearts, I feel posters are here to support each other. And they tend not to like blocks. So I expected posters to jump at an opportunity to try to help Jade and Verne avoid being blocked.You have a heart?
>
> But relatively little posting energy has gone into that. I guess the alternative are: (1) posters don't support them, (2) posters support them and don't want them to be blocked, but aren't helping them avoid that, or (3) posters support them and do want them to be blocked.
>
> Possible reasons for (2):
>
> Posters aren't doing it because I suggested it. Resisting me is seen as more important.My broken record.....it isn't about you!
>
> There's safety in numbers. Not going along with the crowd is seen as dangerous.Give me a break.
>
> Lobbying for changes in policies could be seen as important, too, but that and supporting Jade and Verne aren't mutually exclusive.
>
> Possible reasons for (3):
>
> Being blocked is seen as a sign of being true to oneself, something to feel proud of.What are you thinking?
>
> Civility is seen as more important.Sure.
>
> Any other ideas about why this might be happening?I don't believe that since you haven't understood it yet that you would get it now.
Speaking for myself here!
>
> Bob
Posted by Sigismund on April 12, 2009, at 15:54:15
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
>But relatively little posting energy has gone into that.
How do you know?
Posted by Sigismund on April 12, 2009, at 15:57:59
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
I'm not sure what you expect.
You did read this, I take it?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090302/msgs/889582.html
Posted by Sigismund on April 12, 2009, at 16:13:28
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
> In my heart of hearts, I feel posters are here to support each other. And they tend not to like blocks. So I expected posters to jump at an opportunity to try to help Jade and Verne avoid being blocked.
Really? Somehow this strikes me as disingenuous. Did you expect people to encourage Jade and Verne to apologise by posting that they should? You don't know what people have said to each other off the boards.
> But relatively little posting energy has gone into that. I guess the alternative are: (1) posters don't support them, (2) posters support them and don't want them to be blocked, but aren't helping them avoid that, or (3) posters support them and do want them to be blocked.
There could be other reasons. I have felt that there is something unseemly about this whole conversation.
Posted by fayeroe on April 12, 2009, at 17:01:04
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
What I was thinking while eating a homemade sticky bun........
Bob, it isn't that I don't like you for I've never met you and I can't dislike you if I don't know you. What I dislike, heartily, is your behavior.
Your behavior indicates to me that you have a real disconnect with people. Probably any "people".
I asked you a long time ago if you felt inadequate when it comes to dealing with others. (close..I don't remember the exact words) You didn't answer my question. You didn't even answer it with a question.
I've been here since 2002 ( I think ) and when I came, I like many others thought that I could help change you for the better. I was full of piss and vinegar and because Babble members helped me dealing with the problems of Effexor, I wanted to give back. (that sounds as good as anything, doesn't it?)
I offered up my hostess present and the host didn't want it. I don't believe, now, that the hostess even opened it. I saw others doing the same, offering up little boxes and the hostess rejected the gifts.
Doing something over and over and expecting anything (here) to happen is the definition of crazy in my book.
I see that more hostess gifts are offered over the years and I turn away so as not to see the giver's hurt when the package comes back into their face. Protest, deal making, begging,complimenting, reasoning..they are all in the package but if it isn't opened, no one will ever know it.
That I think is the secret to your success. Just don't open the DAMNED package and everything will be A-Okay!
In closing I'd like to say this to you..someday there won't be any hostess gifts to be found. No one will come to the party for one.
p.s. if you can find one poster who became a better person after being blocked, i'll...actually i don't know what i will do..i keep nodding off because i ate so many good sticky buns.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 19:11:56
In reply to Re: Why?? » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 12, 2009, at 17:01:04
> I'm not sure what you expect.
>
> You did read this, I take it?
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090302/msgs/889582.htmlThanks for letting me know, I hadn't. But I'd read his earlier post, and seeing him apologize there made me think it might not take much encouragement for him to apologize here. But of course there's a difference between Deneb and me.
> > In my heart of hearts, I feel posters are here to support each other. And they tend not to like blocks. So I expected posters to jump at an opportunity to try to help Jade and Verne avoid being blocked.
>
> Really? Somehow this strikes me as disingenuous. Did you expect people to encourage Jade and Verne to apologise by posting that they should? You don't know what people have said to each other off the boards.I did, but clearly I misjudged. It's because I don't know what's been going on behind the scenes that I said *posting* energy:
> > But relatively little posting energy has gone into that. I guess the alternative are: (1) posters don't support them, (2) posters support them and don't want them to be blocked, but aren't helping them avoid that, or (3) posters support them and do want them to be blocked.
>
> There could be other reasons. I have felt that there is something unseemly about this whole conversation.
>
> SigismundWould you be willing to say what other reasons? And what you feel is unseemly? Or would that be even more unseemly?
--
> I've been here since 2002 ( I think ) and when I came, I like many others thought that I could help change you for the better.
>
> I offered up my hostess present and the host didn't want it. I don't believe, now, that the hostess even opened it.
>
> Doing something over and over and expecting anything (here) to happen is the definition of crazy in my book.
>
> fayeroeYou could do something different. My broken record: instead of trying to change me, try to keep Jade and Verne from being blocked.
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on April 12, 2009, at 20:11:45
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 19:11:56
"You could do something different. My broken record: instead of trying to change me, try to keep Jade and Verne from being blocked."
You are so hellbent on getting someone to work on Jade and Verne..I'll tell you what, you tell me what you want done.
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on April 12, 2009, at 20:23:10
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 19:11:56
>Would you be willing to say what other reasons?
Yes. There's simply no way that it would be appropriate for me to ask Verne or Jade to apologise. If I did so, it would be pressure, and it would (rightly) be resisted. I can share how I see things, and that may (or may not) be helpful. Changes of the heart can not be imposed. As we have seen with the blocks you impose, specifically on zazenducke. 52 weeks for what? For being here...that's the truth of it.
>And what you feel is unseemly?
I wonder if there is an antagonistic divisive taunting thing going on. We should be able to speak to each other with more generosity and respect.
>Or would that be even more unseemly?
No
Posted by myco on April 12, 2009, at 20:31:40
In reply to Re: why we are here » Dr. Bob, posted by Sigismund on April 12, 2009, at 20:23:10
Sigi played guitar, jamming good with weird and gilly and the spiders from mars. He played it left hand but made it too far became the special man, then we were sigi's band.....
do do...do do do do..dooo
Hey bowie is great.
Posted by verne on April 12, 2009, at 20:48:42
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 19:11:56
I appreciate how receptive you've become lately but after 8 years on Babble, I don't think you posted that at all. "Heart of hearts"? Help, give me some oxygen. Did you hand the problem off to a protege', partner, or grad student?
You probably told him to "have fun with it" and learn what he could. Many of "your" comments sound like the starting signal for rats in a maze.
If you are still there, I didn't apologize to Deneb because you encouraged it. If you'll examine the timeline, I realized what I had done and apologized within minutes (at least a half hour late at night) long before your request for "apology rehab" from the others.
Geez you are playing with us.
Verne
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 23:27:24
In reply to Is this even Dr Bob? » Dr. Bob, posted by verne on April 12, 2009, at 20:48:42
> You are so hellbent on getting someone to work on Jade and Verne..I'll tell you what, you tell me what you want done.
>
> fayeroeThanks. Verne's back, could you show Jade how she might interpret things more charitably and encourage her to apologize? Either here or by Babblemail?
--
> There's simply no way that it would be appropriate for me to ask Verne or Jade to apologise. If I did so, it would be pressure, and it would (rightly) be resisted. I can share how I see things, and that may (or may not) be helpful.
OK, I myself don't think encouragement is necessarily experienced as pressure, and even pressure isn't necessarily resisted, but I can see how it could feel kind of forward to make a direct request.
I do think sharing how you see things (if you see things more charitably) may help. And if you'd miss them, sharing that. Or, tell them how they're good for Babble? And how Babble may be good for them?
> I wonder if there is an antagonistic divisive taunting thing going on. We should be able to speak to each other with more generosity and respect.
>
> SigismundI agree, and I'm trying my best.
--
> If you are still there, I didn't apologize to Deneb because you encouraged it. If you'll examine the timeline, I realized what I had done and apologized within minutes (at least a half hour late at night) long before your request for "apology rehab" from the others.
>
> VerneI'm still here, and I'm glad you are, too. I didn't mean to imply that I had anything to do with you apologizing to Deneb.
I did think you might be more open to apologizing here if others encouraged you, but I'm not opposed to a direct request. Would you be willing to apologize to me?
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on April 12, 2009, at 23:42:01
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Sigismund on April 6, 2009, at 23:26:14
Perhaps you didn't get round to reading this post, Bob?
> I'd hazard a guess that Bob feels somewhat badly about the decline in attendance at Babble and that was part of why the blocking system changed for the better (with the exception of Zazenducke).
>
> I also think he has benign intentions.
>
> He's just a bloke with a website who gets his ideas about social control from places not terribly familiar to me, maybe the US justice system, or some Uni of Chicago paradigm.
>
> I think it would have been better for Babble as a whole if the question of blocks had not become an issue, which might have been achievable with blocks of around a month, maximum.
> But we shall never know.
>
> I don't think we should make demons of each other.
> Bob may have used a couple of phrases infelicitously.
> Jade and Verne became angry.
> No one is going to apologise freely if they are grabbed by the scruff of the neck and told to do so.which was my attempt to see things as charitably as I could.
People who read the boards and know us both know how I feel about Verne. There's no need to put on a performance about it here. Verne would (I imagine) be disgusted, as would I.
How is Verne good for Babble?
Just like Zazenducke was. They could show us all a thing or two about truthfulness and straightforwardness, civil or not. Is Babble good for them? Well, on the occasion of Verne's year long block and a similar one for zazenducke, he/she said 'But I've had enough. Verne makes me ashamed of all the twistedness I participate in on Babble. Bye.'
Or something like that.
So who am I to say.
>I do think sharing how you see things (if you see things more charitably) may help. And if you'd miss them, sharing that. Or, tell them how they're good for Babble? And how Babble may be good for them?
Posted by verne on April 13, 2009, at 1:12:01
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 23:27:24
Someone other than Dr Bob is posting in his place. I know the difference after 8 years.
The silly mind games: like, "would you be willing to apologize to me?" are painfully transparent. When did Dr Bob behave like this or suggest an apology to him? (at least not this needily)
Something is different. Someone else is posting for Dr Bob. Lots of indicators really. The imposter uses too many words and lenghty explanations for one thing.
The imposter "explains" and uses expressions like, "heart to heart": nothing like the Dr Bob I've known for 8 years.
Besides, the real Dr Bob would have simply quoted and blocked me.
Believe me, Dr Bob, would never have used the expression, "heart to heart".
So what is this "game"? A grad student took over? This is a sham people.
They are playing with you. You're in the hands of Dr Bob's grad kids.
Verne
Posted by Sigismund on April 13, 2009, at 1:26:07
In reply to Imposter, posted by verne on April 13, 2009, at 1:12:01
Well yes, maybe.
Something does not feel right.
Posted by Sigismund on April 13, 2009, at 2:11:32
In reply to Re: why we are here, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 15:11:29
> > you don't get really in your heart of hearts why we are here.
>
> In my heart of hearts, I feel posters are here to support each other. And they tend not to like blocks. So I expected posters to jump at an opportunity to try to help Jade and Verne avoid being blocked.
Really?
Posted by Sigismund on April 13, 2009, at 2:31:15
In reply to Imposter, posted by verne on April 13, 2009, at 1:12:01
If there are grad students involved, they might like to hop to it and answer Lou (if they have the energy), rather than trying out their online therapeutic techniques.
There must be a few of Lou's questions outstanding.
Posted by Sigismund on April 13, 2009, at 2:48:02
In reply to Re: an opportunity, posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2009, at 23:27:24
One of the vices of psychotherapy is the production of willfulness from the way it is often emphasised in therapy.
Any ordinary person knows that there are ways of negotiating an apology in such a way as to make it possible, if that is the intent.
("The Ways of the Will: Selected Essays" Leslie Farber)
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 13, 2009, at 8:49:36
In reply to Imposter, posted by verne on April 13, 2009, at 1:12:01
> Someone other than Dr Bob is posting in his place. I know the difference after 8 years.
>
> the real Dr Bob would have simply quoted and blocked me.
>
> So what is this "game"? A grad student took over? This is a sham people.
>
> They are playing with you. You're in the hands of Dr Bob's grad kids.Well, you don't sound like the old Verne, either! Are you his grandkids? What have you done with him? What are you up to?
While you're here, whoever you are, would you be willing to play this "game"?
Bob
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