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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on March 26, 2008, at 18:03:13
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by muffled on March 26, 2008, at 17:51:19
>Do they HAVE to take action upon notification????
Quite right.
Of course not.
Posted by fayeroe on March 26, 2008, at 18:09:14
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 26, 2008, at 17:26:28
> But the "no one" and "everyone" and "posters" would include current and former deputies, right?
*********I really value the current and former deputies and their contributions to Babble. But I'd like to focus here on "regular posters".************
We are trying to focus on the posters, but it's confusing to see the term "former deputies" included in alot of posts.
And you aren't addressing the issue. Why are the "former deputies" referred to so much in the deputy administrator's posts?
I understand that you value them and that would be expected.
I am concerned when a former deputy replies to a poster's concerns and it comes across as if there is still "authority" there, why is this?
One more thing and then I'll quit. I've noticed that some of those posts have been extremely "snarky" and I don't like that. I wonder why does that gets by without a PBC?
Thank you.
P.S. I appreciate your last apology!! :-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 26, 2008, at 18:26:02
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on March 26, 2008, at 18:09:14
> I would see it as anti-post or anti-phrasing, or anti-word, not anti-poster.
>
> TophExcellent! That's how I see it myself.
--
> With community involvement there is the potential for scapegoating and victimisation. Group dynamics can be dreadful.
>
> SigismundI agree. And people here may be all too familiar with scapegoating and victimization already. That's why I think it would be important for me and the deputies, imperfect though we are, to continue to make the decisions about blocks.
--
> I got NO prob of notifying deps if I feel a post has hurt another poster.
> There is ratting in the 'street' sense, then there is civilized people trying to help in keeping order.
> So ratting over every small slight is not what I might do, but if it was escalating and posters were trying to help and it was getting out of hand, the 'notify is ok.
> If its blatantly hurtful, then notify is OK, if for no other reason than to validate hurt poster.
> I think too much in this world we turn a blind eye, we say 'its not MY problem, its not MY job, its not MY responsibility, its not MY kid etc etc.
> So for example, w/in an elementary school environment, I am a parent, but if I see something that causes me concern, I WILL notify someone, or take action myself. I add to the school community. There is a core group of parents that do this, and we are told we are appreciated, so it must be OK.
> So I think in my exalted opinion that there is NOTHING WRONG with notifying, and I think its then up to admin what they gonna do about it.
> FAIR??? I know I have somehow scooted under the radar more than once. Not so sure why, just know that it is so. SO, if that is unfair, then NOTIFY!!! Its up to US to make it fair, WE HAVE that option. I do not mind a justified PBC, its fair enuf if I have screwed up.
> So while I do not like the role of RAT, I am (mebbe not here so much cuz I not around), but IRL I DO take responsibility for things in a more global sense.
> I think if more did that, the world would be much safer, much kinder, and in the long run respectful....but then again...:-)
> MEBBE I FULLA IDEALISTIC SH*T!!!!! LOL!!!! My eyes ARE brown....
> :-)Thank you for expressing that so well. I too see it as a way of adding to the community.
If we weren't notified of every small slight, and some didn't receive administrative attention, it wouldn't be the end of the world. And could even be seen as reflecting the values of the community.
--
> I am concerned when a former deputy replies to a poster's concerns and it comes across as if there is still "authority" there, why is this?
Maybe because they really know the rules and how things work?
> One more thing and then I'll quit. I've noticed that some of those posts have been extremely "snarky" and I don't like that. I wonder why does that gets by without a PBC?
Maybe because no one notified us? :-)
> P.S. I appreciate your last apology!! :-)
>
> fayeroeI appreciate your saying so, I'm hopeful that we'll be able to get back on track.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 18:34:22
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 26, 2008, at 17:26:28
I just hope your integrity matches my own.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 18:49:52
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Sigismund on March 26, 2008, at 13:43:44
The trouble with standards that reflect the community is that the community can be formed as much by the standards as the standards are formed by the community.
For example, as civility standards get looser, those who prefer a more civil environment may just go elsewhere, leading to a further changing of civility standards.
I know I read a few bulletin boards that I would never want to post on due to the standards that the community has apparently agreed upon. Yet the administration of those sites may consider that the standards have been set by the community, rather than that the community has been set by the standards.
I came to babble, posted on babble, and have stayed on babble, due to the supportive and civil environment established by Dr. Bob.
I see a loosening of standards, along with unequal enforcement based on popularity, and the anger now directed at Admin being directed everywhere as being but three of the reasons that the Babble Dr. Bob is envisioning does not appeal to me.
But clearly I like the civility standards, or I wouldn't be a deputy. So my beliefs may not reflect those of other posters.
But to tell the truth, I see no real point to posting any of this, since once Dr. Bob is set on an idea it's as good as done.
Posted by muffled on March 26, 2008, at 19:05:37
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 18:49:52
Mebbe it will be OK?
M
Posted by Toph on March 26, 2008, at 22:35:58
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 18:49:52
> For example, as civility standards get looser, those who prefer a more civil environment may just go elsewhere, leading to a further changing of civility standards.
>Why do you assume that civility standards will get looser? Its possible that the community will be as equally or more intolerant of incivil speech as before.
But if your correct that things get looser, why will that not necessarily also mean better? Some once thought a woman speaking her mind was incivil. That loosened in this society for the better IMO. In the past if someone said, "I feel like such and *ss sometimes," they were told to be civil. If no one were to be offended by that in the future, I would consider that an improvement, for example.
Sometimes change is good. But for certain, you never know until you try. Babble isn't for everyone. Maybe some of those I miss will return.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 23:19:21
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Toph on March 26, 2008, at 22:35:58
No doubt.
I don't at all believe that looser is necessarily better. But I am aware that many do.
And so the face of Babble will change.
And while I may not believe personally it is for the better, I speak for no one else but myself. Perhaps as far as the entire rest of the world is concerned, it may be better. I make no judgment about that.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 23:27:17
In reply to (((dinah))), posted by muffled on March 26, 2008, at 19:05:37
I'm sure it will be just fine.
See, that's why I'm frustrated. I feel like I did really well at not trying to change the course of the Mississippi. I did the ultimate in acceptance of the inevitable.
Yet here I am.
And I didn't want to be here.
So I'm frustrated.
But I'm sure Babble will be just fine.
I've said everything I wanted to say on the topic, for some quixotic reason I don't quite understand.
I'm finished speaking on it now.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 23:48:52
In reply to Re: (((dinah))) » muffled, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 23:27:17
I'm tired and not feeling well.
While that doesn't affect how I feel about any of this, it probably affects what I posted tonight.
I hadn't meant to post anything at all about any of it.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2008, at 13:26:54
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 18:49:52
> The trouble with standards that reflect the community is that the community can be formed as much by the standards as the standards are formed by the community.
>
> For example, as civility standards get looser, those who prefer a more civil environment may just go elsewhere, leading to a further changing of civility standards.
>
> I came to babble, posted on babble, and have stayed on babble, due to the supportive and civil environment established by Dr. Bob.I agree, the community reflects the standards, too. So the current community reflects the current standards. Others have also stayed because of the supportive and civil environment. They wouldn't want the standards to get looser.
Well, maybe some would. But we wouldn't need them to notify us. We'd only need a single poster who didn't want looser standards to notify us.
But I can't predict the future. And there's often anxiety associated with uncertainty. And with change.
Maybe there would be less uncertainty if there were ways for us to encourage posters who care about this environment, and each other, to notify us?
Bob
Posted by muffled on March 28, 2008, at 15:59:42
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 26, 2008, at 18:26:02
>If we weren't notified of every small slight, and some didn't receive administrative attention, it wouldn't be the end of the world. And could even be seen as reflecting the values of the community.
*hmmmm, slippery here....if not notified and its not a major faux pas, then thats OK. Cuz people DO have the option to report if it distresses them. If they choose NOT to report...well...then thats that as far as I am concerned, and its not fair to get snarky bout something if they are not willing to act on it. There IS a choice. And this is where it becomes challenging and we have to have faith.......cuz then we have to trust the deps to make the best judgements they can....and if they get only one complaint and it doesn't appear to be a major issue...they may choose to let it go and NOT act on a complaint. At this point we just have to suck it up and move on. Cold perhapsd, but its reality. Life is NOT fair, never was.
QUESTION: I wondered if the deps are going to rteply to all notifications? Seems alot of work..... I had a thot that they could choose to reply to those they are NOT going to act on, cuz then at least the poster who reported at least feels 'heard'. I think this could be quite important to many.>> I am concerned when a former deputy replies to a poster's concerns and it comes across as if there is still "authority" there, why is this?
>Maybe because they really know the rules and how things work?
*Ewww, I agree w/Bob, they reply w/authority cuz they have knowledge.
However, that is a curious point to me, about the confusion over whether a former deputy could report etc....I found that all rather odd....and sure as heck isn't gonna want to make anyone ever even consider being a deputy...
M
Posted by muffled on March 28, 2008, at 16:07:45
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2008, at 18:49:52
>I see a loosening of standards, along with unequal enforcement based on popularity, and the anger now directed at Admin being directed everywhere as being but three of the reasons that the Babble Dr. Bob is envisioning does not appeal to me.
*I wonder though. In so many places....leadership really does set the tone.....(look at how much effect BOB has?!)
The behaviour of admin and their responses will be VERY important indeed.
Like I said in post above, admin response is proly important, if time consuming...
Yup, admin will still be large responsibility, and unfortunately, I fear this will further separate the deps from general babblers, which makes me sad, cuz they babblers too......
Posted by fayeroe on March 28, 2008, at 16:30:31
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions-ADMIN, posted by muffled on March 28, 2008, at 15:59:42
"Maybe because they really know the rules and how things work?"
Bob's answer to why a former deputy's post is having the sound of authority to it is confusing to me as well.....
I don't like being told something by someone who is not a deputy now but comes across, to me, as if they do have more authority than a "regular" poster does. I get uncomfortable because I, at times, do not know if I should reply or just keep my mouth shut......
I feel as though I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. Very, very confusing to me.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2008, at 23:37:59
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions-ADMIN » muffled, posted by fayeroe on March 28, 2008, at 16:30:31
Any "sound of authority" that someone infers from any post of mine that provides information about an administrative matter is simply that: inferred. I post with confidence about my understanding of the rules, just as I did before I decided to become a deputy, while I was a deputy, and now. If I sound confident, it's probably because I am in that case. When I am not, I include the appropriate caveats. I do not imply nor do I explicitly state that I have any more or less authority than any other community member. I have no control over how anyone interprets my posts. As such, I take no responsibility for any labels or beliefs about any roles others may associate with my participation here.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2008, at 0:12:15
In reply to 'Sound of authority', posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2008, at 23:37:59
You know, one of my strengths is that I am a quick learner. That plays well with one of my values: being helpful. It's sad, though, when I wind up feeling that "no good deed goes unpunished" after offering what I can to try to help. Actually, I'm damned sick of that little aphorism. Perhaps for the time being, folks could explicitly state whether they require the "mantle of authority" with their answer or if any community member with knowledge of the subject could offer up information. Then I would know whether or not to bother replying.
gg
Posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2008, at 10:22:49
In reply to Re: posts which have so far gone unanswered » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on March 20, 2008, at 15:05:29
>
> > I know I've been absent from my leadership role recently, and I apologize for that. I understand it may have triggered fear and anger. I'm working on getting back here. Thanks for your patience,
> >
> > Bob
>
> This terse statement is reassuring and will tend to make me more patient. My only question at this point is, it must have taken you, what, one minute to write it. Why couldn't you have written it when this whole thing blew up over a week ago?
I haven't been participating in babble since this whole thing blew up and I recognize the fact that you have apologized but there has been a lot of damage done, leaving me unsure if I will return.My suggestion is simple: when you are going to be absent from your leadership role for a period of time you simply post that, or even have one of your deputies post for you if you are unable. In my honest opinion, one simple post would have prevented the eruption of confusion, anger, fear, and a host of other emotions that arose.
I think the most devastating fallout from this has been the loss of some very giving, compassionate and knowledgeable members and I have no suggestions or solutions how to get them back.
Posted by rskontos on March 29, 2008, at 12:15:55
In reply to Re: Suggestion/Dr Bob, posted by Justherself54 on March 29, 2008, at 10:22:49
I really agree with Justherself. I have noticed a huge decrease of posting on the boards all the boards. no pun. Anyway, I have noticed within my self an inability to post something that before this fallout I would have posted. I have in the last few weeks probably written 6-7 posts to different threads that i deleted and never sent and three new threads that I deleted. I have been posting on admin more than ever. I used to come here and lurk but never posted. Now I mainly post here. The fallout for me is still not over.
I understand your statements Dr. Bob and appreciate your posting to answering some of the threads to date but the fallout is far from over. The effects as in posting back to normal is not being seen yet. I am unhappy about the lack of posting from those that used to be here and the sheer drop in volume. Babble seems lonely.
rsk
Posted by adelaide curtis on March 29, 2008, at 22:55:29
In reply to Re: Suggestion/Dr Bob » Justherself54, posted by rskontos on March 29, 2008, at 12:15:55
this is my last post, though i have said it times before..
this supportive community has turned into a small support group that i do not feel apart of.
i do not feel welcome or respected here, and i wish "every" one health and happiness.
take care of each other..
love jyl
Posted by muffled on March 29, 2008, at 22:59:36
In reply to Re: Suggestion/Dr Bob, posted by adelaide curtis on March 29, 2008, at 22:55:29
> this is my last post, though i have said it times before..
> this supportive community has turned into a small support group that i do not feel apart of.
> i do not feel welcome or respected here, and i wish "every" one health and happiness.
> take care of each other..
> love jyl* I am so dense!! Its you!!!!
Glad to 'see' you!!!
I get so mixed up w/names changing and then i read post and they seem familiar writing but I dunno who?! I can't seem to put it together! And I will forget again...
sigh.
Sorry you going, mebbe you will be back.
Again, nice to see you :-)
Muffled
Posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 12:15:17
In reply to Re: 'Sound of authority', posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2008, at 0:12:15
I am another of the posters who, sadly, no longer feels free or comfortable sharing intimate or meaningful episodes from my therapy, or my life, on Psychology, as I used to do from time to time. Sharing knowledge-based information, such as my experience with rTMS, is still OK. It's the private, personal things; those require a basic level of trust and confidence that I am writing them for people who will understand, and connect them to similiar happenings in their own therapies. I always assumed that, but now, if I start one of those posts, I very quickly grind to a halt. The words that used to flow so easily are hard to summon up now. I am very sad that this has happened, as the mutual sharing was very helpful, as well as being fun. It seems to me that the Babble that allowed those wonderful exchanges no longer exists.....
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 15:49:50
In reply to as things stand now....., posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 12:15:17
> I wondered if the deps are going to rteply to all notifications? Seems alot of work..... I had a thot that they could choose to reply to those they are NOT going to act on, cuz then at least the poster who reported at least feels 'heard'. I think this could be quite important to many.
>
> MWe do already try to reply directly when we don't act. When we do act, we figure that lets them know we heard them.
--
> I don't like being told something by someone who is not a deputy now but comes across, to me, as if they do have more authority than a "regular" poster does. I get uncomfortable because I, at times, do not know if I should reply or just keep my mouth shut......
>
> fayeroeI don't mean to be flip, but maybe you could reply if you found their post helpful and not reply if you didn't?
> I take no responsibility for any labels or beliefs about any roles others may associate with my participation here.
> Perhaps for the time being, folks could explicitly state whether they require the "mantle of authority" with their answer or if any community member with knowledge of the subject could offer up information. Then I would know whether or not to bother replying.
>
> ggRoles do complicate relationships. I think the current deputies find that, and the "deputy" posting names are an attempt to clarify when they're in that role and when they're not. It can be hard to draw that line, though, and even when they're in their poster role, their deputy role can affect how they're perceived. And I'm sure that can happen with former deputies, too.
If people aren't explicit about who they'd like to hear from, and it would help you decide whether to reply, maybe you could ask?
--
> My suggestion is simple: when you are going to be absent from your leadership role for a period of time you simply post that, or even have one of your deputies post for you if you are unable. In my honest opinion, one simple post would have prevented the eruption of confusion, anger, fear, and a host of other emotions that arose.
>
> Justherself54I understand that more consistent communication would help. But I don't think that's the whole answer, either, since in fact it wasn't enough to post one simple post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080204/msgs/816450.html
--
> there has been a lot of damage done, leaving me unsure if I will return.
>
> Justherself54> I have noticed within my self an inability to post something that before this fallout I would have posted. I have in the last few weeks probably written 6-7 posts to different threads that i deleted and never sent and three new threads that I deleted.
>
> rsk> I am another of the posters who, sadly, no longer feels free or comfortable sharing intimate or meaningful episodes from my therapy, or my life, on Psychology, as I used to do from time to time. ... I am very sad that this has happened, as the mutual sharing was very helpful, as well as being fun. It seems to me that the Babble that allowed those wonderful exchanges no longer exists.....
>
> twinleafI know that when there's been a loss of safety, or trust, it can take time to repair. If it's even possible to repair. I'm glad you're all still here now,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 16:19:16
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » adelaide curtis, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2008, at 0:22:47
> > why cant you take a "suggestion" with out feeling hurt and threaten to run away from this thread?
>
> I know Dinah already replied, but I'd still like to ask you to rephrase that.Sorry, but since you haven't, I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't welcome or respect you. And I don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please also get help in person. You may also wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
I encourage anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, to see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceDinah, I'm sorry if you felt hurt by that post.
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
duration of previous block: 1 week
period of time since previous block: 48 weeks
severity: 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual) = 3
block length = 1.49 rounded = 1 week
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2008, at 16:26:34
In reply to Re: blocked for week » adelaide curtis, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 16:19:16
> Dinah, I'm sorry if you felt hurt by that post.
>
> BobThank you for that, Dr. Bob. I think that's a nice addition to the block language.
For the record, though, and for whatever it's worth I'd really prefer that people not be blocked for anything they said to me in this matter.
Posted by ClearSkies on March 30, 2008, at 17:26:02
In reply to Re: blocked for week » adelaide curtis, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 16:19:16
> > > why cant you take a "suggestion" with out feeling hurt and threaten to run away from this thread?
> >
> > I know Dinah already replied, but I'd still like to ask you to rephrase that.
>
> Sorry, but since you haven't, I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
>So, what was the time frame that this poster was supposed to have rephrased the post before the block was issued? I didn't see where there was an expiration on requests to rephrase :-(
That doesn't actually seem fair at all to me, and I'd like to request that this block be rescinded for this reason. Otherwise it seems to me that you've imposed an additional requirement that's been otherwise unstated til now.
ClearSkies
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