Posted by Racer on July 18, 2005, at 13:47:50
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of this thread-londisntr, posted by Lou Pilder on July 18, 2005, at 11:14:29
> It is written here something about me accusing others here of being antisemitic. I do not believe that my requesting to Dr. Hsiung for him to make a dertimnation about if a statement has the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings is accusing anyone of being antisemitic.
Hm... I'm going to try to be very, very careful here, so that I can stay within the spirit as well as the letter of the civility guidelines. Not, by the way, to avoid a public rebuke from Dr Bob, but because I really am trying to find mutual understanding on this issue.
Lou, you're right -- you have never written, that I have seen at least, that anyone is anti-semitic. You've drawn comparisons between what someone has posted here with propaganda techniques used by discriminatory entities such as the Nazis in the past, in asking that the full implications of what someone has written be considered. The problem is, as we've seen here, that the distinction may seem awfully fine to some people. While your intentions may be simply to point out that similar wordings have been used against certain groups in the past, and that using those wordings now may not be sensitive to the feelings of others, a lot of people can -- and, demonstrably, do -- read more into it than that.
"Intention" is probably a key concept here, on both sides of the issue. Your intention may not be to accuse anyone of anti-semitism, and it may distress you a great deal when someone brings that interpretation of your posts up on this board. By the same token, though, I think a lot of the posters whose words you've questioned as having "potential" to create anti-semitic feelings are equally distressed to read that unintented interpertation of their words.
The net result of all this, it seems to me, is hurt feelings, flaring tempers, and often incivility towards one another. I don't think that's what anyone wants.
> For instance,In the following , a poster writes here, [...the jewish people still deny that jesus was the messaiah...].
This may be nothing more than my own ignorance coming out, but I think that that statement is pretty much in keeping with the basic tenets of Judaism, isn't it? It may be an unfortunate choice of words to use "still", because it might be read to imply that Judaism has maintained that stance in the face of adequate evidence to the contrary, but that's a very, very thin hair to split.
One of the main differences between Judaism and Christianity is that Christianity is founded on the principle that the Messiah has already come in the form of a man known as Jesus. Judaism, on the other hand, does not recognize this man as having been the Messiah. Because what was written in the post you're using to illustrate your point is less opinion than a legitimate part of the belief system in question, I am not sure why you object to it? (Although, please note, I have not read the entire post in question.)
> And to go further, if a person writes the statement in questionhere, are they antisemitic?This is where I lose you, Lou. I really can't see what you're objecting to? A lot of people are ignorant of the beliefs of Judaism, and some of them are all too willing to share that ignorance with others, but the fact that Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah, while Jews do not, is pretty well known.
If you take your question a little step further, it's a bit like asking whether Christianity in general should be considered uncivil here on this site, because it might have the potential to create anti-semitic feelings in some. I don't think that's what you're advocating, I'm just saying that it's possible to have misunderstandings come up around issues where everyone's intentions are innocent.
> But I ask this: Can I not be vigilant, even if I am the "lone dissenter", to have Dr. Hsiung address posts that in my opinion could have the potential to arouse antisemitic feelings?
> LouOf course you have the right to be vigilant, and to ask Dr Bob to address your concerns. I think what others are reacting to is that it sometimes seems as though you may not recognize how much pain some other people here have experienced as a result of having their words brought up, out of context, for review. Can you understand that?
I guess what I would most like to advocate myself here, for everyone, is to consider both intention and context. "Intention," because I truly believe that the people at this site have no malicious intentions when they post here, with very, very few exceptions over the years I've been here. "Context," because nearly everything in this world can be pulled out of context and seen in a very distressing light. It's like cutting words out of a newspaper to write a threatening letter: you can find the words you need to write a threat, using words that, in their original context, had no threat at all attached to them.
I hope that what I've written is clear, and that no one takes offense at it. It is meant only to try to express my own view of the issues as I see them. If I have hurt anyone's feelings, or offended anyone, due to careless use of language, I apologize in advance. It was not my intent.
poster:Racer
thread:527639
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050716/msgs/529568.html