Posted by chemist on May 24, 2005, at 11:41:10
In reply to Re: ..., posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 14:24:52
hello there, chemist here...my comments below, delineated by asterisks....all the best, chemist
**** what happened to the first in the list? informing us about your stance in re: the issue of medical practice and liability in this forum is key, especially given your subsequent calls for more stringent and real-time monitoring of the site by Dr. Hsiung....might you clarify? ****
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> > second: a request appears to have been made which more than infers that Dr. Hsiung can attend to his perceived duties on this site by securing more sleep: i am not privvy to Dr. Hsiung's sleep and waking regimen, and i suspect that as Dinah notes, family members would perhaps be the best source of information in this regard. in any event, the issue is not germane when paralleled to whether or not one would entrust their safety to a sleep-deprived and over-worked airline pilot.
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> If it involves a critical service, the capacity of a service provider to provide a service that is not harmful is germaine, as are factors that might infringe upon that quality, whether the service is free or not. The administrators routine early-morning interventions, his presence nearly 365-days-a-year and his usual seven-days-a-week presence are a matter of record.**** a free-of-charge internet posting site - PB - inclusive of extensive notices to all parties that the information posted herein may or may not be deleterious to one's health is more than sufficient to free PB from a ``critical service provider;'' moreover, as part of the registration process and lurking in the FAQ - which you note are not items commonly read by you - are more details concerning the extent to which this forum is (suggested) to be of use. a 911 substitute is not one of them, and sleep patterns are hardly non-stochastic in this day and age....******
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> >the collective PB community - one-time browsers through long-term steadfasts - cannot be (collectively) labeled a ``customer,'' if for the only reason being that the ``shopkeeper'' actually does not provide a tangible service aside from an online bulletin board. the issue of whether or not money changes hands is moot - an exchange of legal/accepted tender does not a vendor/customer relationship make.
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> Ah, but they can and have been so labeled. A relationship between a service provider and user are the relevant concepts. In this case, we have terms of service construed as a guideline for civilized behavior. Civilized people often violate contractual terms.
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**** i am unaware of being labeled a customer....regardless, i am a participant - Dr. Hsiung is a customer, forwarding monies to host and maintain this site, retain the URL(s), and items such as these do include actual contractual paperwork - who has knowingly accepted the terms inclusive of assignment of non-exclusive copyright to Dr. Hsiung of any/all writing i am allowed to post here. Dr. Hsiung expects that i take the thoughts and feelings of others into consideration before posting a (usually) inappropriate (my evaluation) response, and i will not be surprised or seek reward in any form should i encounter the collective posts of PB in the bookstore years later...civilized people are a cohort of subjects inhabiting one's imagination, is a very subjective label, and is used with abandon and not with aforethought. i recall the well-heeled parents of my friends, dressed in their sunday best, fully drunk by noon on sunday, when the lawn service people - the uncivilized, of course - came to earn their (our) pay. remember how little it took for president clinton to slide from the civil side to the uncivil? why is the kennedy clan revered? ****
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> > third: the assertion that if people need ``this sort of service, they need quality service'' is an opinion for which i cannot locate an antecedent. is it the ``administrative planning'' to which the reference is made? the task in question is determined not likely to be an occasional talk to one's peers about a ``web project'' or requesting and presumably digesting (again) peer-source feedback in a casual setting. instead, a suggestion for a round-table discussion with one's peers during which time appropriate actions - to be executed when required in a clinical situation - are subject to revision and veto sounds to my ears like overkill, and service at that level was not promised, implicitly or otherwise.
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> Then at least we are not suffering from both broken promises and informally developed protocols for therapeutic intervention in a clinical setting.
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**** then you and i approach treatment in the same way: face-to-face with our respective therapists and/or psychiatrists. the administrative staffs are quite adept at scheduling and warning in advance of vacation time and the like. my ISP is shaky enough, and thus using PB in case of an emergency to seek help from a doctor who is, well, not my doctor nor i his patient, pales in comparison to 911 or a neighbor....*****> >the internet - and this website - is/are a strange ``clinical setting,'' i would concur.
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> Please further contemplate the gravity of your concurance.
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**** concurrence reconsidered, same result: aside from the error in using a word to imply agreement or consent in re: a particular matter between one or more people to myself, i remain of the thought that an internet posting board is not the ideal setting for optimum patient/doctor/therapist interactions. grave matters - none so far - would be handled by local emergency care persons...did you mean something different? ****> >however, it is not a clinic, and all matters addressed on PB - from pills to therapy to writing and so forth - are handled by the posters. Dr. Hsiung polices the area: he does not practice medicine online.
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> And so, as far as we know, he has not been charged with such. But he does contemplate by inference at the top of each page, and detail in stating that his administrative style might be therapeutice, that his activities might be therapeutic.
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**** how is an action such as the one you describe different from assertive posts from, say, me in which i relate an excellent personal experience with a medication, note how much rosier life appeared, and remind the audience of my advanced degrees, even with a very pronounced disclaimer that i am not a medical doctor - to find a post a day or two later in which (and i am far from being alone in this example and in real life) the person writes something to the effect that they ``took my advice'' and decided to do (insert dangerous act here)? *****
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> > fourth: (reference to technical milieu snipped)*** why? it is important that critical service providers adhere to civilized practices known as full disclosure. do you not feel that the confirmation/denial/correction to ownership/administration duties - which you ignored, and they are outsourced, thus Dr. Hsiung does deserve a nod in that direction: he has obviously wisely opted for reading the posts instead of catering to a server farm - do you concur, or have any reason to justify the gloss that was applied to the issue? *****
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> > fifth: the issue of what are deemed ``inconsistent'' and ``arbitrary'' rules by the owner, (reference to tecnical milieu snipped) is an opinion.
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> Most spoken or written statements, outside strict scientific dialogue, are opinions. Perhaps since opinion is the primary mode of speech among civilized humans, we could develop for network dialogue a text-coloring algorithm so people could recognize the rare case when an opinion is so fully accepted by all interested parties as to be considered fact.
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***** i disagree: that is a fact. i disagree with your statement(s) not because mine or yours are factually devoid, but rather because our opinions do not mesh. the claim that most spoken or written statements, outside strict scientific dialogue, are opinions is questionable: the phrase ``is that for here or to go?'' must have considerable heft...and i am heartened by what i assume is your informed revealation that most civilized dialogue is opinion. as an atheist, i am still amazed that an opinion - some call it ``faith'' - actually is manifest in the minds of the faithful as an extant being or force or entity, and, most stunning, that the ``god'' is a specific type depending on the faith employed to create the totem...but i digress....*****
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> > sixth: from whence did poster ``so'' determine that ``there is a notion in the medical profession that people can work any hour of the day, seven days a week,; and if there is any question that the FAA and aviation-associated unions are endorsing 168-hour work weeks for the flight and ground crews,
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> In reference the medical industry, if you did not fully contemplate the demands placed on student interns, I invite you to do so now. Otherwise, If you have information I have not fully considered about the extent to which sleep depravation affects quality of service in other professions, I appreciate that you have reported it.
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**** i did not reference interns in my post - please reread - in any regard; they are not the subject of this discourse, nor is lack of sleep. i asked for- and you did not supply - the source(s) from which you gathered information that ``there is a notion in the medical profession that people can work any hour of the day, seven days a week, and whatever they put out is some gift of mercy to the clients?'' can you do so? many thanks! ****> > he does not practice medicine on this site, and he does not even chime in with information that might be ``more correct''
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> But he stated that his doctrine of "blocking" "stories" he considers innappropriate might be a means of encouraging new "stories", and hence, therapeutic. And he occassionally states that intent is not important -- that effect is the subject of interest in deciding the propriety of communicaiton.
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**** i agree with your assessment: in my own experiences, it is the behaviour on my part - and not the substance of the post(s) from the players - that earns a vacation. i stay on the meds and substances boards, where perhaps a yes/no answer is easier to provide/seek than, for instance, on the faith or relationship boards, just to name the first that came to mind (a chemical trade name is a fact confirmed in a few literature sources; a question posed to the audience concerning a soured relationship invites opinions that might escalate, although i am hardly in a position to deny that even a one-word fact can be adorned with enough rancor to invite a well-deserved time-out for yours truly)....as for suicide plans, information to secure scheduled substances via the internet pharmas, and so on: the site is Dr. Hsiung's and he calls the shots...**********> > eighth: ``so'' is not informed about the realities of academe -
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> Please re-examine your instrument. It seems insufficient to accurately measure what I know.
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**** instrument? i am lost...but here we go, i was long overdue for one of these... i am ``incapable of measuring what [you] know?'' about what? academe and funding? physics? chemistry? pharmaceuticals? systems administration? coding? applied math? publications? being a faculty member for a stretch? please feel free to add categories...as for my being ``incapable of measuring what you know,'' i used a measure that can accomodate one dram (avdp.) of liquid, and no more.you wrote in one post that you had been combing through the archives: you might have noticed that Dr. Hsiung will question a new PB member if their ``handle'' is blatantly or close to suggesting that the poster is a medical professional (e.g. ``BigDocM.D.'' or some such), a wise move in my opinion, as these posters will likely be heeded by more readers who might think that the information is valid if the supplier is an M.D...and the advertised or implied higher education ought to be confirmed...
i do not receive invitations of that sort, and any post i have penned that includes mention of my holding a Ph.D. granted from a Department in Chemistry and Biochemistry, or having published in the journal Science, or any number of fellowships, postdoctoral appointments, and other immodest facts that are in the hands of numerous PBers, does not get dinged for the only reason being: that is just the tip of the c.v. i forgot to mention i am a charming and handsome chap as well....******
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> > where do you suggest Dr. Hsiung attain the money to fully immerse himself in the business of providing a service that, by your own admission, you are indifferent as to whether or not it can survive in the near future?
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> I didn't say be paid to fully immerse himself. More careful study would be required to document evidence for my premise that boards where the management does not leave allegations posted about members behavior are also those that have a budget, and for which administrative workload is shared among several qualified and identified individuals, some of which are compensated for their effort, and for which administrative policies have been contemplated in formal meetings among peers qualified to challenge each other's opinions.
>***** i reread your original post and the message was overstated by me. i remain curious about your indifference about the fate of PB, yet the vigor with which you are supplied in what seems to me to be a move of change..that said, i am game for free employ, and have a pretty good c.v.; are you game?
i am curious as to why you suggested that using interns to ``assist'' Dr. Hsiung appears afore the obvious suggestion to secure funding by writing grants: first of all, any academic knows long before they start the tenure track that the job is little more than writing grants; second, medical school interns will largely be populated by holders of B.A./B.S. degrees in the ``soft'' hard sciences such as biochemistry, molecular biology, and botany; and third, what they could make up for in experience in the field of social work, say, is not resident in a 24-year old...besides, some of the most fertile minds in fields encompassing the sciences, arts, equine care, music, therapy, and just about the whole of it are regular posters here at PB...besides, they are nice folks, and some of them tolerate my presence....*****
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> > p.s. i find the atmosphere at PB to my liking. Dr. Hsiung and myself are not chums, should that thought
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> It would seem a normal product of circumstance that most of those active here at any given time would be those who find the atmosphere to their liking. My concerns focus on those who don't like it, who feel alienated by the administrative environment and who, some after offering considerable contribution in time and thought to the community, have left.
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***** have you acted in a similar fashion at other sites? i am ignorant of any of them - i have written before and do so again that PB is the one and only place of its kind i frequent - and know nothing about their operations. is your quest related to trouble you had on PB, or is PB a singular spot that you feel needs attention, and soon? ****
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> >it seems to me that little intervention by Dr. Hsiung - if any - is called for, given the nature of the crowd here...
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> It's difficult for me to parse this in the context of the rest of your essay, but with the meaning implicit in the statement, I would agree.***** i do not know what to say about the parsing or the essay - yacc next time, perhaps? - but the point was that PB appears to warrant a modicum of attention from Dr. Hsiung, focused upon a few areas: many posters handle thread redirects, warnings about impending PBC/blocks, and so on...funding is nice to have, of course, but i find myself asking: if you (more or less) agree that the PB community largely polices itself, why fix what is not broken, especially if the burden weighs to heavily upon Dr. Hsiung? *****
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> > tenth: ``so'' states that the exchange of information on PB takes a backseat to increasingly bad behaviour of the posters because Dr. Hsiung ... ``his speculations about hypothetical feelings:'' the ... statement ... is outstanding;
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> perhaps you could say more about why you consider it an outstanding statement.**** it is an outstanding statement in my opinion because you - the writer - assume that every so often, Dr. Hsiung guesses a dx (mistakenly, yet with conviction) about troubles that emanate from some dischord in feelings you somehow know are not real. that's outstanding! *****
Would you be comfortable publishing that opinion outside the context of a lengthy critique of my opinions you don't find equally meritous?
***** sure: give credit where due....why me, though?****
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> Finally, you expressed hope that I not take your comments personally, and that they not be deemed uncivil.
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> If I took it personally or considered it uncivil -- well the later is unlikely, because few uncivilized creatures have the capacity for aysnchronous network communication --**** are you implying that you are civil because you are capable of - what, um - being a carrier, say, for a time multiplexed and modulated signal? ****
and it was intended for my personal review as well as that of a wider audience in reference to my personal contributions, so I must take it personally.
**** your call on ``must;'' i only requested a ``please don't''......*****
I would hope you consider it a complement that I take it personally. The allusion to adult behavior in the context you offer in your reply is otherwise often used as a metaphor for graciously excepting other's views about one's personal opinions and recognizing the range of behaviors accepted and preferred among civilized creatures.**** i did not intend it in that way: the reference to adult behaviour is firmly couched at the tail end of a sentence in which i attempted to quantify the extent of what i perceived the workload to be for Dr. Hsiung, and i was attempting to note that i am pointing to specific behaviours that can easily be rectified, and name them. because i tend to get dinged a bit, i drew on my experiences, in which i acted like a child in need of a spanking. period. but again, a ``range'' of acceptable civil behaviours is mentioned: it depends. and besides, i am not very good with metaphors....*****
Unfortunately, not all clinical practitioners hold such generous and welcome views of civilized, personal interaction.
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> and one further observation, informed by my unique insight which taints the observation as an opinion,***** but not your unique insight???? how does that work, can you explain????....******
I don't find any evidence that the administration has equated "civil" with "adult" in any of his admonishments of group members. i suspect if one person directly proposed that one he implicitly considers "uncivil" was in fact less than "adult" he would also tend to classify the one offering the proposal as less than civil. Obviously, I would question the accuracy of the semantics of either presumption -- civility being largely a subjective notion that implies failure to fully benefit from a civilizing culture, and adult being a biological measurement.
**** okay....... *****
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> Now, having only limited resources to invest, I am submitting this reply with only a casual review of spelling, formatting and compliance with terms of service, the latter with which I have meticulously attempted to comply nonetheless.**** thank you!...all the best, chemist *****
poster:chemist
thread:491889
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050517/msgs/502228.html