Posted by bleauberry on September 30, 2009, at 16:59:43
In reply to Re: Swine flue vaccine UTube sent to me a must see » bleauberry, posted by Larry Hoover on September 30, 2009, at 8:33:27
Hi Larry, thanks for the time you put into this discussion. I am privileged to speak with you.
> This is a thoughtful discussion. I appreciate the depth and diversity of thought presented.
Me too.
> One limit to influenza vaccines in general is that they are somewhat akin to handicapping horses at the race track. They're trying to pick a "winner" amongst various flu strains, based on past performance. To make it even worse, unlike horses, the flu can change into a different creature, one that wasn't even entered into the race, during the period of time it takes to mass-produce a vaccine.Yeah, Lyme is looking more and more to be that way too.
> > A problem with the mercury preservative in flu shots is that when Autistic mothers have their children undergo a provoked urine test, their mercury levels are extremely elevated. Those children have not been alive long enough to accumulate that much mercury from the environment. These accounts are numerous. Where did the mercury come from if not the shots?I certainly did leave out a lot of other anecdotal findings mothers have discovered. Other things they have found helpful are antibiotics (makes one wonder about inherited malignant organisms or immune dysfunction) and special diets, with the most satisfying one being dairy avoidance. Mercury is not the only one. I can't recall where the study was done, but with DMSA chelation most of the children showed significant improvement something roughly like this...10% no change, 15% slight change, 30% significant change, 15% very significant change. So while one cannot absolutely point the finger at vaccines, one can deduce that removing some metals (DMSA also pulls lead very strongly) improves most but not all autistic children to some degree. I still have to wonder, where did the metals come from, or what else is going on here? Why would chelation at such a young age make a difference? I wonder if there might be some other completely separate mechanism of DMSA sometimes. It sure felt like it when I was on rounds. The reason the finger was pointed at vaccines is because no one could come up with a better explanation of where the elevated mercury in urine tests came from.
>
> Doesn't that entire argument presuppose that mercury is the causative agent? I can't recall which Nordic country it is, but there was a recent country-wide statistical analysis of exposure to thimerosal vs. autism. A few years ago, they banned thimerosal from vaccines, on the precautionary principle, i.e. why take the risk. They have complete health records on every person, so they could compare the incidence of autism before the ban on thimerosal to after the ban. What they found was that the incidence of autism has continued to rise unabated, despite the absence of thimerosal exposure. There wasn't so much as a blip in the incidence statistic.Yes I recall that study. I remember when I read it I thought, hmmm, something's not adding up. Children get somewhat better with DMSA chelation, but the mercury might not be from vaccines. What the heck?
> > I know the amount in one shot is small, but there are factors to consider such as repeated accumulation (how many shots does a kid get, at least a dozen or more yeah?), genetic variation in ability to detoxify, and susceptibility to respond negatively to even miniscule amounts.
>
> Yes, absolutely. Individual variation can dramatically alter the outcome of any medical intervention. A person who has demonstrated sensitivity to vaccinations, to mercury, is not the person I'm speaking to, however. For myself, I have severe adverse reactions to many psychotropic medications. But I most certainly do not generalize my experiences as being indicative of the drugs' general effects. Just as statistics cannot predict individual experience, individual experience cannot be used to project statistics.
>
> > There is a lot more mercury in a shot than a tuna sandwich.
>
> I want to be very clear just what I said. I very carefully chose my language. I said, "The dose of mercury from one vaccination is about on par with that from a tuna sandwich." I researched the concentration of mercury in a flu vaccine, determined the volume of the vaccine injected, to verify the dose of mercury from one vaccination. I determined the mean and standard deviation of mercury content in canned tuna, estimated a sandwich content of said tuna (mass), and calculated a range of mercury content from such a sandwich. Only then did I present my summary statement, quoted above. There is significant variation in mercury exposure from specific tuna samples, and from the sandwich size, but my quoted sentence is correct. The tuna could contain much more mercury, in fact, because there is substantial variability in that tuna. I don't fear tuna sandwiches.I do. :-) But I have one once every couple months or so. I'm glad you did the math, because I was going to sit down and do that myself tonight. I was curious enough to take a closer look.
>
> > Furthermore, it is going straight into the blood system and the brain, bypassing any possible filtering of the digestive system.
>
> No, it does not. It goes into a muscle compartment. And the very same blood filtering occurring following absorption from the digestive tract also occurs with all blood flowing through the body. It is not as absolute a contrast as you suggest here.What I meant was that any mercury injected directly into a muscle is going to enter a bloodstream soon. When it does, some it will go to the liver. Some of it may get into the nervous system first. Some of it may make a stop at a gland along the way and make home there. Not all of it is going to make it to the kidney or liver.
> > Mercury going straight into the blood system is a completely different far more potent scenario.I just simply based that comment on things like injected antipsychotics or injected antibiotics. If you need something to go bodywide real fast and powerful, inject it.
>
> I'd like to see an actual comparison study before I come to such a conclusion.>
> > Mercury is in fact one of the most potent poisons to the nervous system on the entire planet. No amount of mercury is safe. Some people do have strong detox systems and strong genes to overcome the presence of mercury molecules, so not everyone gets symptoms. Who is to know in advance which child will get symptoms or not? It aint cool. Not a good risk. If someone feels at risk of the flu, safer options would include washing hands very frequently, avoiding crowds, avoiding touching the mouth, nose, and eyes, consuming healthy foods, consuming beverages or supplements high in vitamin C, E, zinc, and selenium, and taking an Olive Leaf extract capsule per day. There are several herbs that are healthy foods and at the same time prevent viral replication. There is miniscule risk of autism or any other complication from that kind of flu prevention.
>
> That's all good advice, absolutely. Thank you. Sensitive individuals should make decisions based on their own experience. I reiterate, though, that population statistics indicate an overwhelming benefit of vaccination over pandemic disease. Smallpox is eradicated from the Earth (save stockpiles held by military entities). Polio would be gone, if it had not been for the propogation of vaccine myths. I'm old enough to remember photographs of hundreds of people in iron lungs, with withered limbs, caused by polio. And then there's post-polio syndrome that strikes later in life.
>
> > Humankind putting mercury in anything, be it shots or tooth fillings or whatever, has got to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant behaviors of all history. The smarter mankind thinks he is, the more foolish he is proven to be.
>
> I agree with you there.
>
> > I have little faith, and there is no way anyone will ever know, that a vaccine would have prevented any of the major epidemics of history such as the Spanish flu. It is hopeful thinking.
>
> Of course we cannot predict such a thing. I can give you 100% assurance with respect to smallpox, however. Even after exposure, we can prevent rabies. Tetanus. Polio. Tuberculosis (partial, for sure, maybe total in some). Etc.True and well said. I guess maybe the hesitance on any vaccine skeptics out there might be, which scenario will this turn out to be? Will it be a tremendous success as in the diseases you mentioned, or will it be a horrifying disaster as in the Lyme vaccine.
> When I said, "Every vaccine in existence has a far, far lower risk profile than does the disease
themselves so much, but from the way Lyme twisted my immune system and inflammation cascade systems, which ultimately impact everything attached to the nervous system. Apparently dead pieces of the bacteria do the same thing.
> There may be homology (similar structures) between some Lyme's proteins and essential human proteins. Cross-reactivity could lead to auto-immune responses. It's most certainly a possibility, but we couldn't have known that before a vaccine trial. Obviously, they'd have to identify the offending proteins, and develop a vaccine that still had specificity for the Lyme's spirochete, but without the cross-reactive components.
> > Why do researchers not work on curing immune system dysfunctions that kill thousands more people than the flu? Fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, arthritis, MS, Lyme. These diseases do not kill in days or weeks like the flu, but they certainly send people to an early premature grave they didn't deserve. Not to mention the tons of suffering along the way. But no one ever died of Lyme disease. Until you take a look at their heart and brain under a microscope.
> They are working on that. I understand your frustration. I have two disorders that would fall within your parameters.
> > I think it is gross arrogance for mankind to believe he has geniusly figured out how the immune system works, with the result of that great wisdom being a flu vaccine. I have not looked into to it, but my initial hunch is that a vaccine prevents the flu at about the same percentage difference as an antidepressant outperforms a placebo, which is statistically significant but in the real world not much.
>
> No, vaccination is absolute, but if and only if the match is perfect. The difficulty is that influenza is off mutating for the six months or a year that it takes to develop a vaccine which is based on what it used to be like. The effectiveness is in direct proportion to the retained characteristics of the mutated virus, whatever they may be.
>> > Flu shots are available without mercury. The problem I have found is that when you ask the person giving the shot, they typically don't know if it is mercury free or not. One has to shop around for a knowledgable source.
>
> Look for single-dose ampoules. That's the key factor. If it's not single-dose, it's more likely, if not probable, that it contains thimerosal.
no matter what side.> > I find it interesting that there are now researchers gathering information from mothers on what is working well with their autistic children in order to give the researchers areas to explore. Think about that. IAN is one of the organizations gathering data to help researchers. The brightest supposedly geniuses are asking advice of mere mothers of children, as those mothers have become experts by no choice of their own, but by necessity. The mothers have discovered by heartfelt trial and error...hardcore research...what works and what doesn't. By the time the scientists and statisticians come to the same level of knowledge, it will be 20 years later.
> I've said it myself many times, what matters is how the patient feels. You have to do the experiment.
> Virtually any medical advance you can name (other than things like heart surgery) arose from anecdotal observations. That's the nature of the beast. The problem is that we don't know what causes autism. If the cause is ultimately genetic, then all we ever have are coping strategies. I accord great influence to the effect of having a caring and supportive parent, no matter what overt intervention has been chosen.
> > One of the biggest ones that comes up again and again is mercury chelation. Where did it come from?
>
> Chelation therapy influences far more minerals than simply mercury, and far more powerfully, also. There are confounds coming out the yin-yang on chelation. If mercury is the culprit, then selenium supplementation should be of great benefit. When selenium is incorporated into e.g. methionine, in place of the sulfur atom in the sulfhydryl group, it becomes extremely reactive to mercury. The resultant selenium-mercury compound is so stable and unreactive that less than one molecule will dissolve in a liter of water......it's one of the most insoluble compounds in existence. If mercury is sequestered, it cannot do any damage.With chelation in general I would agree. With DMSA specifically, it primary has affinity for lead and mercury, secondarily things like cadmium. I do not believe it has much affinity for common minerals. I say that based on the writings of Andrew Cutler's Amalgam Illness and on my own sample of 1. On my last round of DMSA chelation, I had blood drawn 2 days later. Essential metals were either in the middle of the normal range or at the high end (I eat good stuff no doubt), but mercury and lead were practically non-existent. Two weeks later the essential metals were still unchanged, but the heavy metals were now evident, probably due to leaching from deeper stores. In any case, DMSA did not pull out essential metals in my sample of 1.
> > Sometimes anecdotal evidence is so huge as to quickly overwhelm commonly held scientific so-called facts.
>
> I disagree entirely. The plural of anecdote is not data.We will politely disagree on this one. That's mainly because I am all over the Lyme wars, an expert on both sides of it. In that arena, anecdotal evidence is blowing the medical profession in the weeds.
> > In any case, I'm not taking sides. I'm just sharing my experience that I do a whole lot better without flu shots or mercury of any amount.
>
> You've certainly provided food for thought. Thank you.You too and it is a pleasure to speak with a very wise gentleman.
>
> Lar
>Blue
poster:bleauberry
thread:918589
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20090921/msgs/919159.html